to surveillance, hidden. oh pick secretive. what's true, what's big? it doesn't matter. the only criteria is what we'll hook people up. we shed light on the opaque worlds who's behind the benefits and why are they a threat to us all opec worlds start to june. second, on d. w little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power. but my guest this week, former prime minister, because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life, after opposition. politician various young tough was killed in 2015 and he still

does everyone in the rush, a normal person, but how secure is put in himself. what about the rumors to deal health? how does he think this war in ukraine can n, and why all those years ago the russian president, boris yeltsin, groom and unknown, k g, b colonel as his successor. all that and more on complex for we can cut down of welcome to complex own hello trip to be review. you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you? oh, it's difficult to difficult them, although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. i just always was under

pressure, but these i would say risk to be be in jail in the sentence. of course, i decided not to keep not to think this 3 is, can i move out the russian? are you scared of vladimir putin? i am afraid of all the situation for all the russians sent for my stamps on my family. of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want my raises my political used to be in jail, unfortunately, already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law that it's already just applicable and your law and just watching them kids see him just by dancing pupils for the criticism of him as an opposition figure. how carefully do you have to calculate what you say and do,

given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i'm really speaking just this style which i used to have just but always was not ready to go all blaming. but of course i'm making judgments and giving judgment, the will events and miss miss supporting them kids to do. but of course, i'm free to go. but after your fellow opposition, leader barry's, i'm tough was shot in 2015. you said you fed for your life. do you still feel for your life? every one and the rest should be scared and the fear just life and me to normal us. of course, of course, right now in russia that this is the difficult sedation of people's care about us to opposition. fingers were apparently assassinated in 2003,

while you were russians. prime minister said you should cough who set up the liberal russia movement. and the journalists, you are a sugar cheek and who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might have organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from the base point of view. it seems to be like it was at that time. we had no information, i have no feeling that would be involved from today's prospect. from today's, i mean this resume is doing. it is clear that could be the case, but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place? no. not, of course. of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them as prime

minister? there was, there wasn't instigation, open open by just searching or particular office and by the police and it's, it was done, but unfortunately nothing just froze. what was, what was unfortunate, but did you suspect as head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the upon the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they will state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i didn't believe that was false and i was preapproved by them completely. it was involved in the uniforms and we should be successfully the them that's of course i and your all those problems which will happened. but

i was completely occupied with the situation with the reforms with the economy, with the social sphere. no, that wasn't my cabinet launched and that was my oregon, that mr. fortune was as a head of a local feel of the kids and all the services that security services. but he's he was in charge on a controlling all those investigations. there been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean just of course i don't know any for invasion of any kidding, but i didn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them? who would have ordered these assassinations at what level?

as far as you know, at what level would these killings had been decided? what, getting the killings of people who are opponents of the russian state like alexander living in conferences, 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know, we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right. no, just kidding in mind. what's going on right now in my country? we can guess that it could be in the highest level. the same as you said, just nation of their bodies in salt and other people would like live in london and other people just of course, of course, it would be would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over, people who speak out against russia isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition inside the country all those days over completely right now, of course it's position is and then say in the probably magic situation last year

and just support maniac to be put in jail sentence for many years and that's why i'm just there position destroyed. but evidently in the upcoming future considerations will come and positions will grow up. because just of all developments taking place right now, i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling. and i think that this combination of those sectors would leap and then it would lead to that too strong opposition moment and it didn't change in the future. do you think the west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition? figures? do you think they turned a blind eye to them, at least in the early days when they started and put in the regime? i thought this way that's completely disappointed and the reaction with no reaction

on the regional and george activation upgrade here. but in terms of getting go, those people we can recall there was, there was an action that then the government that i remember just reactive quite strongly. and of course, just when mr. put in, mr. m. so was killed in the and the not far from crammed them just they action was not so so great. not so house. and at that time, just the london washington on the medicaid and the europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting does that mean so was i would say. ready one of the most known leave, the so russian position. let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think put in the future actions will be affected or altered by western sanctions?

you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him. this back in just those things from the show impulses or it as a reaction for invasion. and of course shocked him. and of course the sanctions that there's not a prevention that the spanish month for the creek, and i like to support him. and i think that that, that sucking has a suck in effect for him and for other people around him. and of course, that would lead for a great extent, stating the financial system and the economy of russia. and that will create some kinds of the race and negative, or just use for or the re people. of course, middle class i realize these and they against, we didn't, we didn't criminal activity in their grades, but i think just even why,

why the larger part, the population where they will wake up and stuff. asking questions why it's happening. they louis watson was and the propaganda will not be able to provide appropriate answers to them, which will satisfy them and they will start blame. you can, we can ever think what's happening to what extent do you think west and measures have hit the personal wealth of putins in a circle or is own wealth for that matter in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys yet, and the organized crime and corruption reporting project value, the total holdings of putin and is in a circle family, friends at nearly $24000000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think what mister, put himself, it doesn't change. she's style of life was everything, but for people around him to enjoy life, just having everything,

just all those efforts inside the rush on the outside for them, it's a problem. that's the case. and that they completely just the radio, the leaf in the company. it's a different environment and that's and they, and such as fight with this. and they expect that the west will close the size and come back. so no way to, to be them as usual, but it doesn't seem like this. and that's why that's why they quite pissed the music that they have quite nice sentiment and they would say, disappoint greatly right now. we're 3 months into the war. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it still around on the borders posing threateningly, but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take care of it failed to take hockey, which is only what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big a humiliation has it been for russia?

the performance of its forces so far. i think the propaganda managed to different ways. and right now the people don't feel that watching already to see if it's not the case upset. it's but you're right, just the dominant, dominant sheets on the, on the, on the battlefield. them different regions of your grains, of course, creating some kind of needs to go into. and in fact, they now cannot even just expand their occupied territory up to the administration of low balance. can many regions, even these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course, during that last quarter, orbits and bus 2 months, but it is much less than it falls in or just people people expected to mr. to achieve. and that's why that's already it already

exists and supplies effective supply. so military grains, of course, creating a possibility for them to arrest the race. i would say to decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by awesome, they will be able to manage that battlefield. and then this additional stuff change quite directed. you worked on the put in as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him personally? i don't know what extent to just be can see that i know him well, of course i met him just a few, few times. go be a regular it just we discussed different aspects of foss trust him i trust. so it was a great extent that she promised when i agreed to be

a prime minister, so screaming so, so just i put my conditions that make a difference. was that mr. put in the support older prompts by kevin when they say that them she implemented those promises just with the exceptions. you didn't support the reform of gas sector, which was also a couple of gus from for, for, for different institutions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this you that ministry, different for beach supposed to cuts, government responsibilities, some government activities in the economy in social fear. you said that the person you knew 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way mister cassiano completely completely different than the whole,

the whole odyssey she is on the day. and that's contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russia was absolute integrated, then the volt economy and then the world politics. we had an excellent relations with the european union. when that time we launched those for fear so we can make up we had a lot of invite a lot of foreign capital to be invested direct capital director investments in the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, other countries. we was just part of civilized, more than that. we had that comes in hand, but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he? were you aware that this was the start of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no. might, it might sound, it was not the case only in the last year,

and they handle 2003 when we started to press the businesses and he started, as you said, pointing, and you, people from a, from a k g, b for important positions at that time there was a ready, i was ready with disagreement with you and we was absolute different in different positions on the policy, on the crane on dealer was on the bus from on the state, different forms and we had the ready and press on businesses. i would remind you that i'm just the rest on the same color. kosky was the radians ale, and that was also our, the public disagreement with you. that's one and that time and they had 2003 these process as you said, just of change. you can use the stuff that year. let me take you even further back . because when put in arrived in moscow i it was a 996. what are you not suspicious about an unknown k g,

b colonel and the former deputy mayor of some petersburg suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that was not suspicion either, but i will tell you frankly just that which in which in being here for my case should be agent. i believe the company to do all that for new development for do they got the democrats, russia, and the supporting just market the economy, all those reforms and i believe for that, and that's why i agree with you. and i, i definitely also the case that missed the yes from brenda, but also believe that's which will continue continue to use the mccracken, fox and russian potent made his reputation. whatever's reputation was in the 90s in st. petersburg, which by then was a byword for corruption,

wasn't it organized crime and murder was known as bandits city in russia? not a single business from the st kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside matthew control. but putin effectively ran the cities financial system. that was quite a tight to walk, wasn't it? that was not, not just described and that from the information we all have today, you making such a description right now. but then that time we didn't we? russell's are living there with believe. although some signals that keep them that's on the couple of journalism that times, but that was not the case and they say that you said that mr. catch you on a bit in some business. but the deputy prosecutor general said in the 1994 interview that i did with him, that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs. the police counterintelligence the courts. suddenly the crime rates rose very sharp, he said,

and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general. valerie bolshevik off set it in 994. and then i think in that time just people in most school and the government pension, so these are just, they didn't think of as important formation. maybe it was, they just, i don't know, i was not responsible for just judging those reports of general or general prosecutor offset, because whatever, and then i got this name. and as i said, and that against the belief that is a good man and he goes, i would say the successor of continuation of those changes. and when, when this edition comes to me, came to me whether i had that time, i was already in the 8899. that was minister of finance. and the women this is

ation came to me where they will be working with. i said yes, subject that point to support my initiatives and he personally implemented responses. you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin pushed through, but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchies, the grub de russia blind, didn't he, thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? not a definition. what describe it was nice that it was unfair privatization, but not in this. i should colors you have just years. it was, was legal, but not fair. it was. and i was there political mistake, but mr. jensen, as i understand i have reasons to do this and that time. yes,

that was unfair. and i wanted to change the situation. i wanted just to impose just say that say some for those already got for those people who appeared to be the nearest, done as a result of these privatization. but mr. goodman's allow me to be this business subject. you wanted to, if you wanted to get all those kind of got us on the hook and what p q q b, and you still have these hoops on all those wells that people how vulnerable is person now to the people who he works with inside his in a circle who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if not someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as ruthless as he is. is that the case? there is no one who is, who is strong enough,

who supported by others who is capable to round the country. mister william, just deliberately, just create such a situation that they will not be any feasible or plasma for him. and the propaganda explained to rational people, that was the case only fortune. and that's why just half a population off in the question just who is if not pointer, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, rich a deal of the former head of britons foreign intelligence service said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that but my feeling also such that i could leave could leave just next year and coming awesome things. some kind of boiling.

what's a tier and i think mr. rader stuff. think how to the pup but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing that it's not based on any specific information. that's my goes. i know some of people who are still around with me and i know too long ago, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my prediction, that the situation is develop a negative negative man med net negative directions. and you think how to, to get out of, there is no scenario how to end the war and how to end this. as i said, they were shocked as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking just trying to build up the scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have 2 ways to come back. this is nation before february 20 for all just to move around.

and so was just that sample like north korea, but nothing done in either of these directions. that's why people simply way think what's going on, what's happening in the bottles? that's why i'm saying just that the, the front line with the right and the water bottles fuel to success. that's a crucial point for, for future of rational future for grants. and there is room change and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield, not in negotiations executive, but which one is not prepared for any negotiations. ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all. it's clearly and they're not ready to give any concessions. mister doesn't, doesn't accept the 5th. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting and that's why he will be better. just get out from the position rather than just to be defeated and weeks later. that's for him. that's the most

sensitive the most crucial point. me talk cassiano has been good to have your comfort zone. thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. it was great . ah ah ah ah ah. with

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