in zayed, our private lives through surveillance, hidden, peak, secretive work through what's big, it doesn't matter. the only criteria is worked. we'll hook people up. we shed light on the opaque worlds who's behind the benefits. and why are they a threat to us all opaque worlds? this week on d, w. russian troops are stepping up their offensive in ukraine's industrial hard land, slowly but steadily seizing ground with overwhelming fire power and bloody tactics that are taking a heavy toll on ukraine's defenders. as the conflict becomes a war of attrition, ukraine continues to call for additional supplies of the heavy weapons that could

help it hold off the invaders can and will europe, and germany deliver. today we're asking russian offensive today is the tide. turning in proteins favor with hello and welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to introduce our guests beginning with lata learned bags. she's a swedish author and journalist who writes a regular column for the renowned swedish daily spence. good dog. glad and christa fun marshal is a returning gret guest. great to have you back. his diplomatic correspondence for the berlin newspaper, dead tag, ashby, go. and joining us from bond is my ukrainian colleague, aroma gunshot fanco, who works with d w's, russian language service,

and roman. if i may, i'd like to start right away with a question about how you assess the current situation in dun bass. in fact, russian forces are pressing forward house by house village by village. how bad are the losses they are inflicting? what you're seeing now is probably the most difficult part of this war for the last 100 years of 100 day. so since february, when russia openly attacked your crime, russia is gaining ground slowly, but it's gaining ground. and it's because russia changes tactics, so it's now pressing in one, just in one direction on a very, relatively small piece of land. it's, it's a concentrated strike and you have to understand it's a, it's, it's a place where you crane had 8 years to build. so it's, it's lines to prepare for this war. that is why when the war started in february, russians were not moving at all or more in very, very slowly this,

so they had no success there. now they have some success and it could be a russian momentum. but still, it's too early to tell if the, if, if we will see a major offensive and the fast moving forward of russian forces in the coming weeks . but the situation is very, extremely dangerous, i would say. and how bad are the casualties? well, we do not have a reliable information about the casualties. it was unusual to hear the ukrainian president followed him as a landscape talking about 50 to 100 ukrainian soldiers being killed every day. i think the actual figure might be high on sundays. so it's a very huge loss and you have to understand ukraine doesn't have as much as much military as russia. so the, the, the human globe, the human dimension of this war is, is, is very, very dangerous. for your crimes. so ukraine is losing its best trained soldiers.

and if there is no quick help from the worst, i mean with weapons delivers heavy weapons and to tank weapons and all other weapons, it will be very difficult for ukraine to hold that eastern ukrainian region, industrial heartland, as you said. and we will come to weapons deliveries in just a moment. but let me go to lata your defense minister. the swedish defense minister spoke to our colleagues in dw news yesterday and told them that the russian invasion has changed the security situation in europe as a whole. quite drastically. would you agree with that? oh, definitely. that's why we have sent in the application for a membership, nato, which was made a, gets a frantic in a way because she months ago the sale of the same minister of defense said, i would never over my dead body. i would enter the nato. and now we realize how

dangerous it must be because he changed his mind and he's not the kind of guy who just cannot, you know, it's not to populist. this is dangerous, and this had to go very fast. and i want to come back a little bit later to how public opinion sees that. but let me for 1st ask you christa, foreign minister, lover of russia, has called don bass absol the key for russia strategic goals. why is that? what is so important about this region in the east and do you expect that its fall could be imminent? well, russians little bits changed their goals for the war. at the beginning, it was a want to change the government and key f as they wanted to occupy most of you koreans a failed. so now it's a new definition. what could also constitute success or week to re and that is a sudden change. the don boss is very important because you have

a russian speaking m minority majority. however you, you put it and a part of the don bus is already occupied since 2014. so they just want to enlarge this, this piece of land. and that makes it very difficult for you actually ukrainian forces because the russians are concentrating or what they have on the smaller region and the ukrainians. and that is a little bit now the default of the west as well. this was predictable that it would come to that was the situation that you created for us, which would need very quickly, more heavy weapon. they are on the wave. but if the west would have started to deliver that sooner, they would be in a better situation. i'm not the big military strategist. i can only tell you what i hear from military strategist, germany, and yes, what they are telling to me and the optimistic picture is that see tight my turn in the next 23 weeks when the heavy weapons which the west delivers are in place and

the ukraine sort of trained on it. and so we would see a better situation for the, for ukraine in july or early august. but the losses are very heavy and they 1st, they have to come over this period of the next 234 weeks without giving away too much ground. because that's the other side. if the russians get more ground and have some time to establish more defense structures over there, then it will be very hard to get that back. it's easier if you keep the situation flowing and then your green might be successful in holding and also regaining territory. and we're going to take a look at the defense if you're interested, maybe a yeah, to short remarks, i'm slightly disagree with russian aims. i think that the aim to replace the government to change the ukrainian government and to occupy as much of your credit as possible is still russian. a russia just put that aside and said ok,

we can wait. it's a war of attrition now and it will be months and also says we have bigger resources, we can do it. and the 2nd thing is we're western weapons are coming. that is correct. but russia is also attacking your ukrainian trains, delivering those weapons. and we do not know, we don't have reliable information, how much is lost on the way? and he's not coming where it should come. i mean, in the east where the fighting is now. and this is also a problem because ukrainian ukraine have, has very great great difficulties, i would say in delivering fast weapons. it is a big, huge country. it's, it's a very long distance. russia has a lot of enough time to attack women just very briefly, why is done best so important to russia? is it that famous land bridge? the connection to the quinn? is it to crimea? is it the gas reserves that are in the eastern region? what, what is it that makes this, their key focus at the moment?

i don't, i do not think that don boss is more important than the north where key of the capital is or east where crimea is. and russia was worried about supplying crimea with water from the ukraine in the river, the pro. so it is all important, maybe russia thought that in don boss, we can sell it as a victory better because we've been asked in at the beginning of the war that we will liberate those territories and not having success. there was, was kind of a propaganda problem. maybe this is the reason, or they thought if we strike there are we, we do a concentrated strike and we move forward. and then we'll, it will be easier for us to go further because this is where most best train ukrainian troops are concentrated in the east. in dawn bus striking there and maybe trying to encircled them. this is what russian name is and then it will be easier for them to move in other directions. now, thank you very much. now let us take a look at those weapons deliveries that have been mentioned several times. despite

frequent pledges of support for ukraine. germany has faced criticism both at home and abroad for doing too little too late. now chancellor will have shots is promising to send ukraine a modern air defense system. but will it get there in time? with heavy fire power and concentration of its troops, the russian army has recently been making significant gains in terrain in the dumbass ukraine has little to counter this overwhelming superiority of 11 to one at the moment. one reason, the lack of heavy weapon deliveries by germany and its allies. heavy weapons like the already promised gap tank or the how bitter 2000 nowhere to be seen for its hesitant attitude. the german government is therefore being criticized at home and brought on a regular basis. that is, that is not prudence. that his hesitation that his dea trained solid, his timidity,

this is, thinks michigan, a defensive mode from the german chancellor. in the bonus tag, he promises more deliveries. in the coming weeks, we will also deliver more weapons. some the german government has just decided to supply the ukraine with the iris t system. the most advanced air defense system germany has. germany has however, already promised to land that is it enough and will it really arrive? and let me put that question straight to kristof. and after that, after that announcement by chancellor schultz, the foreign minister and lena bear, bach said it could take some months for this surface to air system to get to ukraine. yeah, so germany is a little bit acting to little to late sets. i think that's fair criticism. one could also look at it from a different perspective of a big european countries are not doing much more, take france or italy,

and they are not on the spot. germany is on the spot because it is the country. everybody's looking to for leadership in, in europe. and so i think germany should be criticized word and also just announcing said they will send additional things to day that a suddenly a reaction of chancellor shots, he feels the criticism has to react to it. but the real test is whether it arrives and when it arrives or these questions are really important. i think there are 2 lines where shots is moving, but very slowly because he is a very risk adverse or politician. and what might be helpful to day might be wrong in 3 months from now for the support of the population. so he makes 2 lines. first of all, his parties, a sort of democrats are much more comfortable if they can say, well, we deliver defensive weapons, not weapons for attack. so for example, heavy tanks like the legal parts they don't want to deliver, although it would help. and the 2nd line general is your cream should defend itself

. it shall not lose the war rush of windsor war. but this is cautious assessment, but we shouldn't give you korean weapons which, which they could attack russian territory instead of something. president biden was also want to come back to that in just a moment, but let me ask lot her to give us an outside perspective, because i know you have been watching germany for, for a long time now and reporting on it. so in his historic speech on february 27th right after this invasion began, chancellor sholtes called it a turning point. and many people who heard that speech felt that we were perhaps finally seeing germany move into a readiness to play a leadership role in europe in communist security and foreign policy. but also beyond that to finally punch at its weight as it were. do you think it has follow through? is it walking the talk?

no. i think that the germans are identifying with the predictions that they've been had at them since the 2nd world war. and they really are really good as identifying with being the bad guy. they really are terminating themselves with things that happened 70 years ago. and therefore there is this talk about no more war, no more war and german grounds, niema align sign, and all of this and this is, this is holding the germans back. there is also a, i would say, rather than negativity towards the americans in germany and you do or the germans to identify with moscow. m a and a s p there is said the social democrats are very torn. and even in sweden, we can watch this and see that he is not clear. and i mean, he was now yesterday, but it's still not very german because the german said v,

acting on you know what they say, and they always have. so it was clear, and yet 2 thirds of the speech were devoted to domestic economic issues and social solidarity, which was great to see hesitate. that's the big question. even in sweden, when waiting for him, let's, let's ask roman why he thinks, chance or shorts hesitates because you to have been observing german politics and foreign policy for a long time. do you think this is his personal leadership style that restrained northern german approach or is it the legacy of the social democratic party and those ties to moscow and politic that lot are just mentioned? or is it perhaps that he's been essentially intimidated by putting scare tactics? i think it's all of those things and i would add one more. i think it's also fear

that russia quote, to cut off gas supplies suddenly and germany economy would suffer. i think this is also something that he has in mind when he's hesitant in making a decision and deliver heavy weapons to ukraine as soon enough. so i think, yes, of course, there is a legacy of the, his party, the social democrats. there are, there is a very strong pacifist movement in germany as a country, not just in among people who vote for speedy but among other other parts of the country. so there are very strong ties to russia in east, in germany. and all those people are very skeptical about weapons delivery. so their society is split, i would say, and we have, and this is what polls are also showing that we have some 40 percent in favor of delivering of a heavy weapons. and like 3738, i think against it. so this is something that shows also is considering and

but he will have to decide and i think he's moving in that direction. but moving slowly. christa, do you think the chancellor is right to be cautious to be fearful that a stronger german and more proactive approach could in fact, precipitate world war 3. as he actually himself said, personally in the military field, i think he's too cautious. it's a different thing with economy and sanctions. so i would here give us an answer. from my point of view, russians are much more afraid of nato was a conventional weapons was a, it's nuclear weapons than we should be afraid of russian weapons. in the long run. the west, the, you close, the u. s. has an economic resources which 16 times to 20 times as thick as rush us economic resources. so if this is a war of attrition, if it last long,

then it's for my part of your no question. who will win? as long as there is see political determination to support ukraine as long as they want to fight and give them what they need. but germans are afraid of this nuclear thing and we just have to remind ourselves we where it's a front lines, east germans and west germans for almost half a century in if there had happened a nuclear war, it would be on the territory of germany. and that, that has an influence and on, on our, on our thinking we, i think curved shots as wise not to push economic sanctions too far because i think we all have to understand that sanctions should be painful for the enemy, much more than to your own economy, otherwise you might lose over the midterm range, the support of your voters, and that is the real danger. and i want to take a look at sanctions in just a moment. but latter, do you see similar divisions in public opinion within sweden,

the economist recently wrote about western attitudes as a whole. as this conflict becomes a war of attrition and said it seeing the emergence of a peace camp on the one hand, an injustice camp on the other. the justice can't be in those who say they put in a breach of international law cannot be permitted to stand. would you say there's a similar division of attitude in your own country? absolutely. yeah. on the other hand, sweden always wants to be the best in the class. so now we've decided to join nato, and everyone is kind of stuffing us. but that is just united us even more before add one. talk about us, letting the terrorist walk the streets and you know that he didn't put his veto into this. it was more torn and wireless. now we have gathered behind the idea that we have to deliver sweden is one of the largest and deliver in country that liver is the most the number one country per capita within the rest of

most weapons. and yeah, their discussion is there, of course, for sure. but you are moving ahead with nato membership, and that is a quite a big turning point in sweden. let me just go back to rome and very quickly, if you would, roman the u. s. is also now promising to supply sophisticated surface to air weapon systems do you. they also though have extracted a pledge from the ukranian government that these will not be used to fire on to west on to russian territory. that was actually mentioned by christoph earlier number one. will that pledge do you think be respected? is it in fact requiring ukraine to fight with one hand behind its back? and number 2, will this pledge be enough to placate russia? well, i think you current is not interested in using those weapons on the russian territory,

ukraine's and was very in or at least that was my impression was very strange in taking russian territory. we do not have reliable information about that. there was some explosions in the board not far from the board of oil refineries and things like that, but that was it. so ukraine did not attack. i think it was like for the deeper into rush and stay. so crimea was not really attacked. and now ukraine is not in a position even to a tech, to russian territory, even with those weapons that will be delivered. next. those are multiple rocket launchers. they only have a relatively short range or medium range, i would say. and i do not think ukraine has an interest in russia, has signal to very clear a few grain does that. we will, we, we have all options on the table including nuclear. so i don't think you're

greenville risks are. thank you very much. let's take a very quick look at the issue of sanctions and in fact the european union has now agreed on its 6th package of sanctions. but getting to yes wasn't easy. will pumps from russian fields is no longer welcome. in most parts of the u. e. u. leaders in brussels reached an unexpected breakthrough on the 6th sanctions package just around midnight on monday night. these sanctions are biting heart and are really, are destroying. and that's the goal on the basis their financial basis of putting, leading this war and hitting heart the russian economy. but the embargo only applies to oil imports by ship and compromise to keep hungary on board. the country will continue to receive russian oil through the so called drug bar pipeline for the time being. the sanctions also exclude rushes,

largest bang from swift band 3. so the russian state broadcasters and sanctions those responsible for war crimes. but how effective is this 6th sanctions package? let me put their question straight away to christophe. but coupled with the observation that this exception for the jewish by pipeline doesn't only affect hungry or so poland and germany get oil the year this pipeline. so if they were so serious about western unity, shouldn't they actually being foregoing, that oil now? yeah, but they don't want to do that. i mean, poland and germany made the deals that are preparing to face out over the next half year. so they want to get there until january of next year and just gets a timeline in comparison that we don't know how long the war last. so hungary was not the only guy or was the only country in the room which would have problems with an oil embargo just right now. also bulgaria as a check republic and so on. and so,

but we should blame her hungary for not being willing to find the compromise to play only on its own interests. and he, i think see you as to think about to which degree or the importance we give to unity isn't overrated. i think in this case we should sometimes tell countries, you know, we can do consensus minus one and it's a strong signal of 26 countries. and every time the issue, as mentioned, hungary would be blamed for not trying to join you. so more political pressure by you minus one might be a good tool. yes. and in fact their cost to drop maturity at a consensus voting, but that would be a whole show in itself. so we won't go there. lotta when you look at the state of this much vaunted western unity, are you concerned that it could shatter going forward? i didn't get the question now. what? chattered the western unity this united front that the west has celebrated and

rightfully so. in the beginning of the war. well that's definitely one of putting the goals for, you know, the 3 that we employed or that we depart from one another. so we just have to be aware that that's must never happen because the war against the ukraine is not a war just against the ukraine. it's war against western values. it's an imperialistic war. and if we don't get that we, we, we are in serious trouble. let me take us all back to the title of this program and we asked essentially whether the tide is turning in putting favor roman. how do you see it? oh, we're not hearing you so sure. go ahead. tied could be turning for protein. could be turning for promoting, but it is short term prospective and immediate term and in the long term, i think putting will lose definitely the same feelings that i think the tightest

just for the moment turning but not in the long run. see west well when, if they are committed to support your praying that we have to deliver, we have to deliver now. thank you. thank you to all of you very much for being with us and thank you also to our audience for tune again. see you soon. a with

ah life on the front line here. they're hit with grenades every day. in the small ukrainian town of new york, 3 quarters of the inhabitants have fled. but somehow not giving up their

homes. no their hope for peace. focus on europe. 90 minutes on d w. o . in many places love. so now in the world climate change very hot the stores. this is my plan, the way from just one week. how much was going to really get we still have time to go. i'm going all with her. i'm just kinda, i think that's hard and in the end is a me, you are not a lot of to you anymore. we will send you back. are you familiar with this?

with the smudges reliance of the what's your story. ready he wasn't, i was women, especially victims of violence in labs and take part and send us your story. we are trying always to understand this new culture. so you are not a visitor, not the guests. you want to become, sit in so migrants your platform for reliable information ah, frankfurt hodge, international gateway to the best connection, self road and radio. located in the out of europe, you are connected to the old world. mood experience outstanding shopping and dining

offers. enjoy your services. be our guest at frankfurt, airport city, managed by fraud lou with ah ah, this is dw news alive from berlin, ukraine's presidents as a 5th of the country is now under russian control. oh it emer zalinski. comments. com as the west promises more weapons to kiff and russian forces edge closer to capturing the key eastern city of savannah and.