they will not do davinci, mysterious masterpiece for this, perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece in the collection of the louvre. and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks, 2 versions, multiple copies, and a hidden drawing. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful painting that perhaps we just don't understand today? search for answers starts july 7th on d. w. liberty . mit said big american promise of foundation of the american dream, and it's a beacon that shines around the world. but that american brand of liberty seems to be under threats when millions of women find themselves suddenly deprived of their reproductive rights. the supreme court has over to the right to terminate the

pregnancy. several states have already banned abortions outright. ex president, trump hales it as a divine decision. while president biden warns of a further erosion of civil liberties, the usa in 2022, a nation deeply divided over abortion that also of a guns and by racism. today on to the point we asked is the us no longer the global post, the board post the boy of liberty with one more come to to the point my guess on the program. today. emily roy, a political scientist, founder of the center for inter sectional justice, here in berlin law on donnie. it's head of america department of the sink,

tech s w. p. the german institutes international and security affairs in berlin. eric curse from us journalist based in berlin, working for a variety of english language language publications. well, welcome to all of you. now in our introduction i mentioned 3 very distinct fields where the very principles of liberty do seem to be eroded right now. guns, abortion, and racism, unable to stop with you media. all these 3 topics really as separate as they seem. no, they're not at all. they are interlinked with each other. and i can provide a quick example of how they, they are intertwined with each other. so the abortion bands relate to the fears of disappearing the white race disappearing. so these discourses have been mobilized over and over again. they are not at a centre of abortion bad today. of course not that we can see that there are ramifications as well with other countries in europe. grace, of course, the white race doesn't exist. there is there are no human races,

gun violence. we can see here that, for example, the rights to life is not the main reason for abortion vines. this is a discourse that he's mobilized to, to create an appeal of it, but actually pro life movements are also pro death. and i want to say that in a private, provocative way, because pro life also means pro gun this means for a war. and if it was really about life would have movements for, for universal health care would have as well a convergence of abortion bands with the end of wars, et cetera. we can see that gun violence, or if he's the right to own a gun, the rights which is inscribed into the constitution and seems to be untouchable. not like the right to abortion is also for me indicative of a power dynamic and a double standards when it comes to rights. when we see that worship rights are, the abortion bands are primarily affecting women and men violence,

especially the yeah, the, the consequences of owning guns is perpetrated by a vast majority of men. and here we see that the power is not power in decision making. here is not equally yet equally distributed over let me ask you, is there a cultural going on in the us right now? i wouldn't call a culture war. i think there's definitely a lot of polar is ation united states. the river republican party has been very successful at the polls by, by galvanizing their supporters and taking on these issues. and racism is a problem. guns is a problem. and abortion has been an issue percolating since 973. it's something that the conservatives have been trying to get overturned since then, and yet we saw, you know, states very controversial decision, a 6 to 3 decision by the supreme court. and that's galvanized and polarize the country even further. a lot of democratic voters are now more likely to vote than

ever before. so, you know, the country is definitely in a terminal period. but i disagree with the theory that the united states is a beacon of democracy is finished. on the contrary, i think united states is one of the is the world's most important democracy. even today we saw this, the g 7 meeting this recently that the united states was the country that's rallying the rest of the democracies in support of ukraine. so yeah, there's problems in the united states, but there's a turn in such a big deal. you're saying, no, it's definitely a problem and it's certainly a problem. and it's sickening that the supreme court decision which was considered the law of the land for the last 50 years, got overturned and it got overturned because a republican president was able, and a republican senate was able to more or less hijacked the system and get 3 can so ultraconservative justice is put on and that's going to lead to the pendulum swinging the other way. i'm pretty sure that the democratic voters will come out in big numbers, most likely and, and they'll try to get their justice back. the big loser is a supreme court which used to have

a very good reputation as dates. and the repetition of supreme court has been really damaged by this. that's one thing that's definitely been harm, but i think united states is a beacon of democracy, is still there law. do you agree? and also eric just mentioned the g 7 and how the u. s. played a leading role in providing helpful ukraine. what effect is this by still call it a cultural have on the rest of the world. all right, let me 1st start say something about the decision, the roe v wade decision here. i think that this is fundamentally a sat back for equality of women and reproductive rights, of course. and that's why it should be a concern for us in germany as well, and in the rest of the world as well. because it's an injustice and injustice. annie wears a threat to justice everywhere. we learned this from martin luther king very well and i think it still holds today. so we should be concerned. but i,

having said this, i think it's also true that where you have a lot of shade right now, not just an abortion, but other topics as well can control. and the general 6 commission are perhaps an example of 2 examples of things going a better way in and of a political forces trying to re unite and to shape the future of the united states differently than the current supreme court apparently is willing to do it in a very different way. so you have one really bad example, but more, less in the same week. also an example of legislative activity that are more promising, i think. so let's have a look at the supreme court a decision before we continue our discussion, as i'd like to take you to the us state of missouri right now, that's a place where everything we're discussing here is already

a reality for women. ah, a freeze that no longer applies to women, living in misery, us date, all but beans, abortion, even in cases of rape and incest, it is also the 1st day to invoke the supreme court ruling fighting that abortion is no longer a fundamental right in the u. s people's voice has already may clear the missourians respect the sanctity of human life. we believe that without the explicit protection of the right to life, all liberties are under attack. abortion is expected to be severely restricted or be, and in about half a 50 us states, millions of women will be affected. i'm here as a, as a black year women, i already feel like i don't matter 20. so on top of this, you're adding the on to the fire. president biden also sharply criticized the ruling to realization of an extreme ideology in a tragic error by the supreme court. in my view, clarence thomas,

the most senior supreme court justice once more will interviewed, including ones on contraception and same sex marriage even fewer freedoms in the world's most powerful democracy. so the really frightening pothole liberals her from a european perspective was at the very end of our report that the supreme court wants to look at other freedoms and rights as well. access to contraception and gay rights to get married. eric, is that really within the realm of the conceivable that women in the us in the year 2022 might soon have access to contraception, controlled or restricted? i seriously doubt it. i think valving of supreme court has jurisdiction in states. i think the states will still have a lot of authority and a scenario when all states are going to be outlined. contraceptives are gay. marriage is not going to happen, but even one state. yeah, i yeah. unfortunately,

the supreme court decision has opened the door, opened the floodgates and there will be more said backs. but as i mentioned, this is pendulum in united states, word swings conserve than its wings back the other way. it's not the end of the world, it's, it's a bad time in the united states, but this is what the conservative republicans been working for for the last 2 decades. packing the court, some of the people who help donald trump didn't like donald trump at that, that was their goal. getting conservative justice is extreme justices. it's a problem, but it's not the end of the world. there are still a lot of people that have stayed standing up and fighting this, and there's still half the states we're. this is that are inviting people who are feeling persecuting these days to come back to reinstate lease wise once they that once they've been caught. and you said the pendulum is now swinging this way, takes a long time for it to swing back the other way. don't you think? yeah, well look at the republican pro abortion fight. this has been going on for 3040 years now. they never gave up. they were they, they couldn't do it through the legislation, so they did it to the court. they,

they took the system and hijacked it where they could. and with a minority minority of 30 to 40 percent of the people united states. they were able to change the law of the less than the in the state, but it's not the end of the world. it's not, we're not back to pre 973, we're abortions are outlawed everywhere. abortions will still be possible. and a lot of states let, let me bring in amelia might be not the end of the world, but it's worse for some than for others in which way a black women more affected by this. yes, i find 1st of all, the statement is not the end of the world once was a really difficult to hear, but like 3 times even for it and how many times you said it i funded quieter. problematic? absolutely agree that yeah, i mean, i think especially in your position where you're never going to have to get an abortion. so that being said, i think m. yeah, the situation was worse for 40 years ago, 50 years ago at the same time. the fact that the right to abortion that had been fought for it for so many years by feminists in the united states and over the

world and at this rate has been taken away from the constitution is a massive deal. so i want to say that again, and when we say that abortion bands are not that do not mean that there will be fewer abortions. i mean the statistically speaking it's minimal. it's not even, it's anecdotal. how many few were abortions that would be? it means that there would be more death, it means that it would be more maternal mortality and are normal. turn it in the u . s. is one of the highest in the world. and when you imagine that the united states is one of the richest countries, this is worrisome. and the maternal mortality rate is a predominantly and this proportionately affecting black women and women of color in the united states. and so that's why, how is that? why is that? why is that 1st of all because of the lack of access to health care and so that we know about. but i think there's another aspect that is less talked about, and i speak about it in my book why we matter at the end of oppression where there is an empathy up in medical, in the medical system. that leads as well to

a differential treatment of black people. there are numerous studies which show that the health care received by black people, and especially here by black women. if we look at the intersection of gender and race leads to, miss diagnoses needs to inadequate treatment. and these are the reasons. so of course, there is also an intersection with poverty. you know, the access to the universal to, to health care is, ah, is a consequence of poverty and income inequality. but there is also a racist history behind that explains why black people are treated worse in the healthy stem injustice system everywhere in every single and sector of american society. but i could say the same about europe. so definitely a bigger deal for somebody than for others. laura, do you also you also said earlier that this is a big deal. it is definitely is. and i think in her opinion, on rove the weight that they just are than younger justice, ruth bader ginsburg,

made it very clear that you, we have this inter linkage between the quality and inequality problem. and this specific right for women to choose. and it's, it's obvious that it will hurt certain parts of the population more than others because of the lack of education and the same goes for any kind of reproductive rights being taken back by the supreme court, it will always disproportionately hit those who are less educated who have less access to health up to the health system who cannot travel to get an abortion in a different state. so yeah, it makes a difference. i don't wanted to send this decision. i think it's a horrible decision as well. i just want to say it was done legally. it was done in a country based on this rule of law. and the pendulum will hopefully swing. yeah, this is not an argument. what is legal is not just, you know, slavery was legal the holocaust way. this is to, i was legal, you know,

so i think we can just based on issues of and you know, of highest and moral. and i mean, i don't want to use moral because this could be interpreted in another way, but of justice based on the law. and if we do this, then we opened the door for so many other injustices happening. and so when you say that you don't see it happening, that the right to contraception, that the right to i think there are gay marriage. i seriously doubt that i wouldn't be so sure. and i'm affected by both though. maybe that's why as well, i have another view on this, but i would say that it's highly probable that those rights which were gained relate to me recently, especially for there is and the right to same to same sex marriage or is not safe. these are not right that are on that, and then we'll put a note saying it's a state by state issue and the supreme court will not change massachusetts law and gay marriages. that's not going to happen. that's all i'm saying. yes, certainly is the threat. the, the democracy, united states is a vibrant democracy. you know, everybody in europe likes to think

a lot of people like the thing is the end of democracy, united states. it's not the end of democracy. it's, we're seeing this is a very vibrant, robust reaction to this. and i think damaging it's damaged. yeah. at least we can say that we can tell if there's been damage for the last 30 years. it's definitely a problem but, but it's a very vibrant, lively democracy and we'll see the mid term elections coming up very important elections a couple of weeks ago, i thought the democrats were in deep trouble. i think the democrats might do a lot better than they expected because this is a kind of thing that will galvanized democratic voters and there might be some surprises because of the united states is a very polarized country. there's no doubt about that, but i think going to a era and just because of a man i, i think i'm allowed to see this. it was a horrible thing in the sixties and seventies where people would get illegal abortions. horrible. it's not going to go back to that. there are states in the united states which are not been, well, law abortion. california has gone to the other extreme saying we're going to,

we're going to invite everybody wants an abortion here. so i think democracy, united states is alive and thriving, and i don't think it's in danger that we just interject their laura, is democracy on the threat, or is just the, the belief of the justice system now damage. now that the supreme court is as made, this decision is and doesn't seem to be neutral anymore, where it's not a popular decision. we know that the majority of the u. s. population is against it, but that's not the standard for constitutional court. i think we can agree on that . it doesn't have to be in line with a general opinion in any case. but as you mentioned, i think it could be the whole thing, the hurry or taking back of roe v wade could be the starting point of a new legal movement or something. so the fulfillment of ideas that have already been out there, and maybe it's giving the democratic party. now a push to do more on the legal side to come up with bills to think about how to

quantify the right sort of housing operate. but so far, i think the president was really clear, he was pretty clear on not being willing to go that way, go down that road. and it all depends in the end. and now all depends on democratic senators, in the u. s. senate, whether they're willing to think about changing the routes of the senate, talking about the filibuster, and changing those routes that would enable the democratic party, then to pass a law that provides that same rights to everyone. every citizen in the united states. i would like to ever so slightly change the jackson i'd like to take you to texas now to a small town that's recently gained notoriety for all the wrong reasons. hurts the the town of you validate population 15004 weeks ago, a teenager killed 19 people. mostly children in the local elementary school was just the latest in a seemingly never ending series of school shooting,

made possible by the notoriously lax gun control laws in the u. s. i left if well, in this city we are all affected. it's like it's your own child who was shot on too many times. we blame the weapon and not the person. we can go to school without worry about going to violence and just imagining how much it's increased ela 40 years. and i think it's kind of play ridiculous headers, more shooting than days of the year. we must not react to evil and tragedy by abandoning the constitution or infringing on the rights of our law abiding citizens. tiny harvest billed with small, mutilated and decapitated bodies. that's it. fill us with great enter man's retains laura. the

conservatives in the u. s. tend to argue strongly against any interference by the state when it's about guns. and he had warmly welcome the supreme court decision to limit women's rights. are they actually aware of the double standards? i can tell you that because i can't read their minds for i can say that in recent weeks they were able, at least part of the republican party, was able to get behind a democratic proposal to control guns. and they voted along the democratic senators and house representatives to do that and actually implemented policy for the 1st time after that being the road block for decades. so perhaps there is some change taking place or not so sure. on the other issue, the abortion front, eric, as i just said, there's a bipartisan bill now for better gun control. is that the big step that was that was needed hopefully,

but the congress is falling down time and time again. they've been so influenced by the national rifle association to be powerless and not take any steps united states as a, has a strange legacy with the 2nd amendment. going back to the revolutionary war, people think you need to have guns. there's 40000000 guns, 9 states. it's, it's a plague in the united states and congress is the, is the problem. congress has not been able to stand up to the n r i n r a until now, and we'll see. hopefully there's always hope, but we've seen every time the congress backs down again the n r a has its tentacles all over the place and congress just and just never gets his act together on it. there's a race issue here as well. i think a black man in the us 15 times more likely to get killed by a gunshot than any white asian hispanic man. so what's the racial divide here? i mean, we're not speaking about racial divide. we're speaking about

a history of violence affecting black communities that is home ground. it's something that has structural historical reasons. and many times in the u. s. a conservative voices try to explain this violence with and demick reasons, culture, reasons, something that would have to do with blackness, right? this is absolutely wrong, where it shows is that black committees have been marginalized, and after slavery, which a less in many centuries. and of course, it's going to have economic and socio socio political effects on the community. what he says as well about gun control is that a white supremacist ideologies have an interest as well in not preventing guns in the united states. right, because it's doing a great job besides also a feeling prisons with black men, which for some people is described as a ration of jim crow. and so in that sense, i can link it as well to the abortion bands, which in many,

many nationalistic and national estates is one of the 1st states. first, that's of establishing eugene is policies, right? and we can see that a 60 percent of the unborn fetuses are considered to be white. of course, you know, there is no white race, but here we can, we can definitely see see the, some of the hidden arguments, some of the heat. an agent does that are behind gun control behind, behind abortion, and here we're not speaking at all about conspiracy theories. these are worse that have been as well said, we see the discussions that are going on as well. you know what i was saying about the demographic winter, speaking about the diminution of the white race, that the fear of being re, of being replaced by latinos, and black people, et cetera. and so this is a real argument. this is something that is behind this whole discourse that needs to be given a bit more attention. so you mentioned this hidden agenda, something i'd like to come back to. if we look at the international connections of

the american religious, right, if you want to call it that, how? because their influence. i mean if we look at at hungry they see pack just had a very big conference there. how internationally connected to other laura was sometimes you worried that they more influenced by hungarian nationalists than the other way round. but anyways, whoever's inspiring whom it's a bad trend. and i think you also see a lot of impact in latin america by evan yvonne, jessica groups. and that's a concern definitely. yeah. ok. last round, we have to come to the end and very, very briefly, i want to come back to the opening, asking all the wes still of beacon for liberty. let's start with you are absolutely, i'm millions of people go to the united states every year. the population is growing. united states the scene around the world is as a leader in so many areas and it's going to continue to be the despite the term oil . and the churning, united states is going to be a beacon for

a lot of countries for a while to come. so i'm asking for whom, for whom is denied states a free country. right? i mean, if we look at, you spoke earlier about the millions of black people incarcerated in prisons, one of the highest prison population in the world. when, when we're speaking about that, also again, hundreds of thousands of people who can't make into the u. s. war. and documented migrants and facing a lot of violence. families dislocated here. now a lot of women who don't have access to abortion. so i want to ask the question, of course, this is true. there's freedom, it's a country of a great influence. and i also was influenced by the us on a lot of the theories that i teach, for example. but at the same time, we have to ask ourselves, why is the us self proclaimed, as the biggest example, it's still a big invades it's been bitterly fought for by various groups in the us. and i think we need to place our hopes that they will continue to fight for equal rights

for the 2, not just in the us, but also abroad all around the world. thank you very much. that's it for this edition, for to the point. oh boy, discussion gave you some fresh perspective. if you're watching us on youtube, please tell us what you think of the comments below. we'd love to hear from you from me, my guess and the whole to mirror to the point. thanks for watching. ah ah ah

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