do with how can we protect habits? we can make a difference. global ideas. the environmental series in the 3000 on dw, and on i was just curious, is with arthur gray, blue pakistan's, former prime minister, emron con, isn't going quietly after being kicked out of office in a parliamentary vote in april. he's been making extraordinary claims of a foreign conspiracy against him and making it clear that he wants to fight his way back. we spoke to him about what's really going on in pakistan and his sometimes

controversial positions on the current state of the world. in 100, thanks for joining a dodge avella. so i want to start by talking about the war in ukraine. this is, of course, it's the biggest war in europe in many decades as the 2nd world war is a war that is threatening to throw tens of millions of people around the world into hunger, its waters, driving inflation in pakistan. i want to make sure that our viewers understand your position on the war. are you prepared to condemn the russian invasion? was recently be so one thing of 1st i want to clarify that i am basic, an anti war person. i do not believe that military ob solutions sir exist on this world because when you're trying sol, one problem with the military or operation, you actually end up creating

a lot of other problems. as is the case with the ukraine war. as was the case with iraq, war and of honest thought for 20 years. they created so many other problems. so here's some, one will pause all these wars. and so if i was consulted about the ukraine war, i would certainly have are advised not to go into that having to say that it is, i have a certain if i may just interject that because you have said this in the past and made the point that you, you opposed the iraq war and you oppose the afghanistan war. but you are very explicit in opposing those wars. you even stood in a, in hyde park in london in 2003, and made a speech against the iraq war. you condemned it very vociferously. why are you not doing the same thing with the war and ukraine? well, let me, sir. one thing, you know, i was going to explain why. the reason is that pakistan has or

are our future is tied up with russia in terms of gas oil and specifically wheat. because we are, we have to, we bought or weed from our russia because of our 220000000 population. so when you start condemning people, you taking sides, basically, you know, taking moral stands on international issues as very good. but when your country stands to suffer as a result of it, you have to have the luxury to be strong and rich enough to start making her digging sides. i bit my point of view in this is very simple. i have, you know, i was then the prime minister, 220000000 of people are focused on elected be their men interest was that i look after the interest of the people and therefore, ah, we wanted to have the luxury of remaining neutral in this in this war,

but you are very open in your criticism of the united states and pakistan has also depended on the united states billions of dollars of, of aid coming from the united states over the years. so are you suggesting that it's okay to criticize the united states publicly, even though you defend on them, they depend on them, but with russia, you have to treat them with kind of kid gloves. is that the relationship with russia? richard, slight difference. when i was condemning the iraq war or the val, honestly ward by the way of understand what directly affects pakistan. we already have trib over 3 and a half 1000000 refugees upon refugees and pakistan. so what happens in nevada that we get affected? but then i was, i was the prime minister of pakistan. and so i was as a civilian, as a, as someone who, who doesn't believe in wars, i could speak my mind. or when you become the prime minister,

your responsibility then becomes the people of your country. and in our case, 100000000 pakistan is a venerable euro. the either below the poverty line or just above so as a prime minister, that becomes my mand responsibility. and so you still defend, for instance, the fact that you paid a visit to moscow on the eve of the invasion, you had a meeting with flat me uprooting on the day, the very day the russian invasion took place for you to find that. do you think that that was okay to go ahead with that trip? well, her reserve, the facts were that when i arrived in, in russia, in moscow and the meeting was next morning. so when we woke up in the morning, that's when the invasion took place. so believe me, i wasn't consulted in that and hardly did i know that this was this would happen had, had i known i certainly would not have or obviously not have got

a dig in that trip, but as it turned out, reward already there. and next morning was the invasion, but but mister han, i'd like to point out that for instance, on february the 22nd the day before you arrived, there were already columns of russian tanks in done yet. that was reported even by reuters, i'm sure your, your staff have access to reuters. and on the very evening when you touched down the very eve of the invasion, when you touch down, you said to one of the people greasing you was a time i have come so much excitement. you clearly knew that we were on the brink of a war richard, now look, let me make something very clear. the thing is that our russian visit was planned long time ahead. a long time before. the reason why we wanted to improve our relationship with russia was because during the cold war,

august sun was with the western block. and india was with the wood were neutral. and so we were always considered part of the western block, and we never had good relationship with russia. and so this was the 1st visit after many years by a, by august and prime minister. and so the entire, of all the stakeholders in our country. we all thought about this, that how can we improve our relationship with russia? that's how the visit visit was planned. so when on the eve, even when we heard that there was a chance of something, we had a consultation. all of us sat together on our foreign office and they came to the conclusion that if we cancel at this time this, we will put our relationship with russia and the cold storage. and bearing in mind the future where we need russian weed, the need russian oil, and specifically the gas pipeline did, which has been on for 6 years. it,

we'd now canceled to visit the country as good as was going to lose a lot. so just like every one else, richard, let me just explain to you. what about kush be now? india has usurped the rights of that 3 with a hunger stream. it will just want you to, to read it will be of pakistan and india. it is very important, i don't know, but as very important another i'm saying is that we're asked normally about russia, where in florida and i don't want you to do it. what about and i am time to talking about kashmir. i would just like o s one further question about about your visit to merger we minority. i will know i want to mission. i 1st want to move on and talk about bush be no, i'm sorry. there is some 100 pages mail last question in the matter to us. so one of her us, while how about other people are not worrying about our human rights? and what matters do us wise? are we supposed to condemn issues which are it's a european issue. so please have somebody that has under miss a haunted us, it is

a don't just put us at a spot that, you know, you will, you have to because it's your issue. we have to take sides, allow us the luxury to stay neutral as well that we can look after own people as high as sponsibility. i repeat again, are my 220000000 people up august on of course we understand that mr. han and there is nobody would question that i would like to ask one final question about the visit to russia, because you did say that if you had known that you would have liked to reschedule that, do you feel that vladimir putin, him of course, you know, being able to v meet awhile leader on the day of the invasion, this play to his advantage. did you feel somewhat used by that? by that, with those pictures that came to ran around the world of you meeting him in moscow on the day of the invasion. well a if you, if you recall, laura world leaders visited bosco few days before me and in the previous month, lot of of world leaders visited. and remember the, the,

or the overseas or trips up planned months ahead. they're not just the spur of the moment. saw a to answer your question, had i known that russia was going to invade her ukraine in the morning or, you know, of night we arrive and the next morning, i certainly would not have taken the trip. i mean simple as that, but we weren't, we didn't know the trip was blan months ahead. mr. honey, yet let's move on to another very important relationship for pakistan. the relationship with china. it's was, he invested a great deal of money, tens of billions of dollars of a recent years in pakistan. partley's part of it is belton road initiative. you've described china as a model for pakistan's development. and yet, as we've, the world is kind of watched it in recent years, it's increasingly becoming a totalitarian. a surveillance stage are really very stark,

authoritarian power. does this give you any grounds for discomfort? look, a richard, let me just repeat myself again. look, when the people of this country elected me as a prime minister. remember, when i was not the prime minister, i was free to say a lot of things. when you become the prime minister of the country, your number one priority becomes the people who elect you. now, i didn't electrical, talk about all the wrongs that are going on this world. they elected me to look after their interests, and i repeat 100000000 pakistan is a venerable either below the poverty line or just above. so the top priority of any elected leader is 1st to look after the interest of us people. and so china, we have had a long relationship with them. gina has invested in august on our men interest as

that we the sort of development that diana has done is much more likely to suit us then for us as the western countries which have developed a long time ago. china developed in the last 30 years. it's a model that we could learn from. so i'm, when i break china, i talk about the development model. and bertha, you know, concerned with this good degree of investment, they're coming in from china about the, the amount of kind of control that the china is going to start building up over pakistan in the long run. all of these very important connections coming down from sion, janet, for instance, and down towards the down towards the ocean. i'm a, you know, concerned that there's your building up. you describe it as a dependency for, for things i, we saw and gas on russia, the desert dependency building up here. that could be risky. look or is a giant are so far, i mean from the budget sun experience there have

a very light dutch, i mean it when up when 3 and a half years of my government, i'm the, we'd never felt any pressure from chinese to do this or that all of there was, you know, i mean, we never felt, and by the way, all through all the relationship with china, it jona has never pushed its way around in this country, dulles. to either do this, or that or, or europe force their own views on us. it's never happened and bogus done. so a hurricane during religion to hon is not happening in directly mr. han through the fact that you have evidently said in the past that you feel you do not evidently feel free to criticize a china about what is happening in shin jang, which neighbors artist on that if you evidently have the same phenomenon as with russia in that you feel that, you know, pakistan by building these relationships with these great authoritarian powers,

no longer has the ability to stand up. for, for instance, of an oppressed, muslim minority inching. jang, what but you know, written look, i or this is where my problem was. i knew where i got little. i walked up. look, the issues that bother us. marcus. thought number one is she was good grief it, sir. a dispute could be there's a dispute between pakistan and india recognized by the world community in 1948 by the u. s, security council resolutions. now, 100000 people have died in kashmir in the last 30 years. the un human rights reports on cashflow published about all the atrocities that are going on. how come? no one even had more, admonishes india. i'm talking about the western countries. why don't they even, or at least tell them that we will, if, if you don't fix the human rights of we sanctioned your something. they don't,

they only wouldn't take a stand against the violence going on and push me right now documented by the united nations human rights reports. now, how come nothing happens there and palestine for us, for the muslim world, because it's the 3rd most sacred place for us, a jerusalem or the alike. so mosque how gun that there is. israel can get away with anything against the ballast in his violet, all human rights. yet this can you look on damnation? no strong words nor thought of sanction. but yet where it concerns listen, i've been ours. yeah. and we're supposed to take sounds. so, i mean i, i just find this morality with a selective. i find that a bit hard to swallow, but, but i, i think, i think what we're discussing here is that you are also accused of your own selective or morality for criticizing india over kashmir. for instance, here at dodge, well, we've done a lot of coverage of kashmir. we've also done

a lot of coverage of the western powers unwillingness to criticize india to openly for geo political reasons. we covered that a lot, but i'm asking you about our chin jack. and i'm asking you to, to explain it, do you have your own double standards when it comes to a matter of she jang, and also when it comes to the war in ukraine, that you are simply evidently not willing to criticize. i either open this is, i am not talk. you are a television station. you are free to criticize anyone, but your governments, how have the ticket stand on cushman on what's going on there? the in and do in 2019 on 5th august, india violated international laws by taking away the state would of course be that was guaranteed to them or enlighten 40 it. now, was there any response? i spoke to the heads of states. i spoke to you angela merkel. i sports,

or spoke to morris johnson about this. what was going on and kashmir? no response. because india is an ally in the immediate aftermath of your time in office. you were removed from office in april. you have been making accusations against the united states, very publicly claiming a conspiracy your word to remove you. the united states denies this. this is nike zation, you've been very public with it. you stand by this claim that there was an american lead conspiracy to remove you from office will or to let me the outside explain the any one would want to have great relationship of the us as a superpower and bug isn't particularly because we have a large amount of exports, which would for, which be said to the u. s. and secondly, that the most powerful pakistani community is the pakistani american community. and

i had perfectly good relationship with the trump administration. now, i'll just give you the facts. these facts are up, were the read out in a cabinet. there were a presented in front of a national security johnson, which then said that there was interference by the u. s. and they actually demolished the u. s. in pakistan and in washington. and the supreme court chief justice, the president of our country, assent that cipher a which is which was where i, based by allegations on, has been sent to the chief justice to hold inquiry. no, i'll tell you what happened 7th of march, or you are sir under secretary of state. donna lew, meets the bug a study and best in washington and, and threatens him. that unless m, ron hon, was removed, i, the prime minister was removed by a vote of no confidence. there will be consequences for pakistan on the next day, the no confidence has tabled this threat was issued before the nor confidence. so

we have this sir cipher official meeting, but really ambassador and the, and the sir under secretary of state. this then i saw that as well as a bred to the president of the country. now, after that, the moment he should the threat then came the look on finance portion and then up people's my own party members and our allies started a banding us. so we have, so at least a 100, i would like to pick up the story at that point. so and you have made these claims to united states is denied that it also, that the miller establishment in, in, in pakistan has not used the word conspiracy. and what you described there, and i would cut it to you that is not all of this talk of an american plot, are really a way of obscuring a rather more simple truth that what happened to you is that you lost support. you

lost the confidence of pakistan's military that you had of a sleet, some kind of falling out with general batch were the head of the military and this opened up a space for them to drop you and for you to be challenged. well, richard let, let me the sir, give you a bit of background. i wasn't bar for almost 4 years. the 1st 2 years our country went through very difficult i. we inherited a bankrupt economy, one of the biggest current account deficit. and i history. does that. so that can be easily googled. next circle the, the govern. 19. so 1st 2 years we really went through the country went through bad times like, you know, the 2nd everyone all over the world suffer during covered 90. but in the 3rd and 4th year burgess, thorne's economic growth. what was the, was the best after 17 years. we grew at $5.00 us and 6 percent respectively. is it

not the case that what was fatal for you? was losing the confidence of the military. the military gave you their confidence in 2018 that helped you get into office. and now the military has dropped you her versus look, i would buy me mccleary acquisitions right now or, you know, whatever i said, the other people will deny it. the best as the president of our country has said that cypher either regard rick the record of the conversation between our ambassador and don and lou, he's send it to the chief justice of pakistan to hold an open inquiry. so the best way we'll find out what actually happened if this enquiries held it little other than a living other people lead they are and why you come out with the results of it. but you m e d. you seem very hesitant to criticize the military to chris's general

battle. i mean, would you, would you have concerns for your safety? are you worried about criticizing the military publicly? i am not, i'm not worried about my safety. but i'd, the problem is that we live in a very rough neighborhood. we need a strong army, a just look around in the, in the neighborhood we are, we live does what is going on in the world. i mean, so you know, syria, libya are our finest thorn, iraq german. so bog, a son needs a strong army, and so i would not want to do anything to undermine the strength of army or to do blame army. you made it clear you want to try to get back into power, or you want to battle another election, or will you commit here to accept the results, whichever way it goes? or, or are you concerned that it might be rigged against you? look, as it stands to those rigid, i'm afraid we have no confidence in the election commission because it is totally

biased. it is your what so far? it's like what has been terrible. but for the future of august on the future of august on lies and a truly democratic system and democracy means you have to have free a free and fair elections. if you do not have free and fair elections, when people don't accept the result after that, that's when the acrimony starts. a major issue for you in pakistan's, backyard is afghanistan. we've seen what is happening with the taliban. they're, they're back tracking on commitments on human rights, on girls education and, and many other issues. humanitarian crisis really taking place there. security crisis to do regret your job, sort of supportive position towards the taliban. do you still believe that the world should recognize the taliban? and if so, if you do believe that,

why should the world recognize the taliban given what we're seeing, the reality there now? well firstly, richard, i'm the only people i support are the people of afghanistan. and when we were, when we, when i spoke about that, there's no military solution and of, honest on, ah, it was knowing the history of, of understand that eventually, you know, like the russians are, or by the soviets, before that, the british, or whenever outsiders have tried to impose a military solution, it hasn't worked in of understand, they're very independent, independent minded people. now, it immediately when you ever talk about a, you know, that there was no military solution. people like we were dubbed as being brought taliban, we're prov, harness done. and at the moment up, people in of understand have peace after 40 years. now, in my opinion, you cannot impose human rights from outside and especially to a independent minded, little as a body of african women, many of whom are fat,

to flee the country. 5th of fearing for their lives for their rights. and it sounds like you're saying, well, just sort of accepted, numbered, hurting what, what joyce is every god, what can you do? i mean, the only joyce, what you're stating is that i solid them. but my point is that isolating them has far bigger dangers. who believe? remember, lucy, be doing anything unless you ended up in of honest on i didn't miss dennis early mean military intervention. could you say use it like what kind of influence could you be using on the packet on the taliban to try to, to, to speak out against. this is what we're seeing it the actions towards women in particular. well, the do things again richard. one is that the atlanta son, people are extremely independent minded. if you try and force your opinions,

they react. but in privately what, what, what i spoke to the taliban delegation here. they all brought women education. so what is happening in of venice on i'm, i'm not quite sure what is happening right now, but in private they always talk about that a yes, a women have a right to get educated around hun. we'll have to hope that these apparently private promises kept to so far. there's no evidence that they are being kept t. thank you so much for your time. mr. han for speaking to dodge of ella today. ah ah, with

who a fear of nuclear weapons is 30 years after the end of the course. but not just in russia talk on international experts have been warning for a long time. confrontation and how did

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like microbes to be annihilated even 77 years after the holocaust hatred towards jews is still pervasive. history of anti semitism starts july, 2nd on d w b. ah ah, ah, this is dale. the news alive from berlin, missile strike in ukraine's odessa region. ukraine says at least 20 people are dead after russian aircraft fire of missiles that hit an apartment building and other targets. also coming up on the show, china celebrates 25 years since the united kingdom. candid back hong.