ah no da vinci's, mysterious masterpiece is perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece in the collection of the louvre. and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful painting that perhaps we just don't understand? research pakistan's, former prime minister, emron con, isn't going quietly after being kicked out of office in a parliamentary vote in april. he's been making extraordinary claims of a foreign conspiracy against him and making it clear that he wants to fight his way back. we spoke to him about what's really going on in pakistan and his sometimes controversial positions on the current state of the world. in 100, thanks with joining a dodge of villas. i want to start by talking about the war in ukraine. this is,

of course, it's the biggest war in europe in many decades as the 2nd world war is a war that is threatening to throw tens of millions of people around the world into hunger. it's war, there's driving inflation in pakistan. i want to make sure that our viewers understand your position on the war. are you prepared to condemn the russian invasion? was recently b. so one thing of 1st i want to clarify that i am basic, an anti war person. i do not believe that military ob solutions sir exist on this world because when you try and sol, one problem with the military or operation, you actually end up creating a lot of other problems as, as the case with the ukraine war. as was the case with iraq war and of on a stand for 20 years. they created so many other problems. so here's some,

one will pause all these wars. and so if i was consulted about the ukraine war, i would certainly have are advised not to go into that having to settle it. i have a certain if i may just interject that because you have said this in the past and made the point that you, you opposed the iraq war and your post the afghanistan war. but you are very explicit in opposing those wars. you even stood in a, in hyde park in london in 2003, and made a speech against the iraq war. you condemned it very vociferously. why are you not doing the same thing with the war in ukraine? well, libby sir, wanting her, you know, i was going to explain why. the reason is that by august on her of future is tied up with russia in terms of gas oil and specifically wheat. because we are, we have to be bought or weed from mar,

russia because of a 220000000 population. so when you start condemning people, you taking sides, basically, you know, herb taking moral stands on international issues as very good. but when your country stands to suffer as a result of it, you have to have the luxury to be strong and rich enough to start making her digging sides. i bit my point of view in this is very simple. i have, you know, i was then the prime minister, 220000000 of people are like a son elected me. their men interest was that i look after the interest of the people and therefore, ah, we wanted to have the luxury of remaining neutral in this, in this war. but you were very open in your criticism of the united states in pakistan. his also depended on the united states billions of dollars of,

of aid coming from the united states over the years. so, are you suggesting that it's okay to criticize the united states publicly, even though you defend on them. they depend on them. but with russia, you have to treat them with kind of kid gloves. is that the relationship with russia? richard slight difference. when i was condemning the iraq war or the of honest on war, by the way of understand what directly affects pakistan. we already have trib over 3 and a half 1000000 refugees upon refugees in pakistan. so what happens in nevada is that we get affected, but then i was, i was the prime minister of pakistan. and so i was as a civilian, as a, as someone who, who doesn't believe in wars, i could speak my mind, or when you become the prime minister, your responsibility then becomes the people of your country. and in our case, 100000000 pakistan is of hon. you know, the either below the poverty line or just above so as a prime minister,

that becomes my main responsibility. and so you still defend, for instance, the fact that you paid a visit to moscow on the eve of the invasion. you had a meeting with flat me uprooting on the day, the very day the russian invasion took place. and you defend that. do you think that that was okay to go ahead with that trip? well, a reserve. the facts were that when i arrived in, in russia or in moscow and the meeting was next morning. so when we woke up in the morning, that's when the invasion took place. so believe me, i wasn't consulted in that and hardly did i know that this was this would happen had, had i known i certainly would not have or obviously not have gone to dig in the trip, but as it turned out, reward already there. and next morning was the invasion, but mister hun, i'd like to point out that for instance,

on february the 22nd the day before you arrived, there were already columns of russian tanks in done yet. that was reported even by reuters, i'm sure your, your staff have access to reuters. and on the very evening when you touch down the very eve of the invasion, when you touch down, you said to one of the people greasing you what a time i have come so much excitement. you clearly knew that we were on the brink of a war richard, now look, let me make something very clear. the thing is that our russian visit was planned long time ahead. a long time before. the reason why we wanted to improve our relationship with russia was because during the cold war, pakistan was with the western block and india was with the wood were neutral. and so we were always considered part of the western block,

and we never had good relationship with russia. and so this was the 1st visit after many years by a, by august and prime minister. and so the entire, of all the stakeholders in our country. we all thought about this, that how can we improve our relationship with russia? that's how the visit visit was planned. so when on the eve, even when we heard that there was a chance of something, we had a consultation. all of us sat together on our foreign office and they came to the conclusion that if we cancel at this time this, we will put our relationship with russia and the cold storage. and bearing in mind the future where we need russian weed, the need russian oil, and specifically the gas pipeline did, which has been on for 6 years. it, we'd now cancel to visit the country as good as was going to lose a lot. so just like every one else, richard, let me just explain to you. what about kush be now?

india has usurped the rights of that 3 with a hungry 3. it was a different unit. it would be of pakistan and india. so i, it's very important, i don't know, but as very bottom i'm saying is that we're asked no, really about russia married founder, and i don't want you to do it. what about and i am time to talking about kashmir. i would just like, 0, one further question about about your visit to america? we minority. i will know i want to mission. i 1st want to move on and talk about, gosh, be no, i'm sorry. there is some 100 in the past. last question in the matter to us. so what about us? while how about other people are not worrying about our human rights? and what matters do us wise? are we supposed to condemn issues which are it's a european issue. so please have somebody under miss haunted us. it is a don't just put us at a spot that you know, you were, you have to because it's joyce, we have to take sides, allow us the luxury to stay neutral so that we can look after own people as high as

sponsibility. i repeat again, all my 220000000 people of august on of course we understand that mister han and it nobody would question that i would like to ask one final question about the visit to russia. because you did say that if you had known that you would have liked to reschedule that, do you feel that vladimir putin, him, of course, you know, being able to v, meet awhile leader on the day of the invasion. this play to his advantage. dick, don't you feel somewhat used by that by that with those pictures that came to ran around the world of you meeting him in moscow on the day of the invasion? well, if you, if you are gone, laura world leaders visited boscoe few days before me and in the previous month, lot of of world leaders visited. and remember the, the, or the overseas or trips are plan months ahead. they're not just the spur of the moment. so to answer your question,

had i known that russia was going to invade her ukraine the morning or, you know, of night we arrive and the next morning, i certainly would not have taken the trip. i mean simple as that, but we weren't, we didn't know the trip was blown months. i heard mr. honey, let's move on to another very important relationship for pakistan. the relationship with china. and it was, he invested a great deal of money, tens of billions of dollars of recent years in pakistan. partley's part of it is belton road initiative. you've described china as a model for pakistan's development. and yet, as we've, the world is kind of watched here in recent years, it's increasingly becoming a totalitarian. a surveillance stage are really very stark authoritarian power. does this give you any grounds for discomfort?

look, arrested lippy just says, repeat myself again. look, when the people of this country elected me as a prime minister. remember, when i was not the prime minister, i was free to say a lot of things. when you begun the prime minister of the country, your number one priority becomes the people who elect you. now, i didn't electrical, talk about all the wrongs that are going on this world. they elected me to look after their interests and i repeat 100000000 by august than is a vulnerable either below the poverty line or just above. so the top priority of any elected leader is 1st to look after the interest of his people. and so giant are we have had a long relationship with them. jonah has invested in pakistan. our men interested that we, that the, the sort of development that diana has done is much more likely to suit us then for us as the western countries which have developed

a long time ago. jain are developed in the last 30 years. it's a model that we could learn from. so i'm, when i pres gina, i talk about the development model a bit, a, you know, concerned with degree of investment is coming in from china about the, the amount of kind of control that the china is going to start building up over park is done in the long run, all of these very important connections coming down from chin, jang, for instance, and down towards down towards the ocean. and are you not concerned that there's your building up? you describe it to a dependency for, for things like we saw and gas on russia, a desert dependency building up here that there could be risk logarithm giant are so far, i mean, from the bug a sun experience. there have a very light dutch, i'm in it when up when 3 and a half years of my government, i'm the, we've never felt any pressure from chinese to do this or that all of there was,

you know, i mean, we never felt and by the way, all through all of our relationship with china, it jayla has never pushed its way around in this country to tell us to either do this or dad or, or europe force their own views on us. it's never happened and by august on so i do believe in hiding home during religion to honda is not happening in directly mr. han through the fact that you have evidently said in the past that you feel you do not evidently feel free to criticize a china about what is happening in shin jang, which neighbors artist on that if you evidently have the same phenomenon as with russia in that you feel that, you know, pakistan by building these relationships with these great or thorough terry and powers no longer has the ability to stand up for, for instance, of an oppressed, muslim minority inching. jang. but it, oh richard,

look i this is where my problem was. i mean where i got little i walked up, look the issues that bother us. pakistan number one is she was cush, gave it sir. a dispute cushman as a dispute between pakistan and india recognized by the world community in 1948 by the u. enter as a security council resolutions. now, 100000 people have died and cushman in the last 30 years. the un human rights reports on cash below published about all the atrocities that are going on. how come? no one even had more, admonishes india. i'm talking about the western countries. why don't they even, or at least tell them that we will, if, if you don't fix the human rights of we sanctioned you or something. they don't, they don't even take a stand against the violence going on and push me right now documented by the united nations human rights reports. now how come nothing happens there and

palestine for us, for the muslim world because it's the 3rd most sacred place for us a jerusalem or the i like some mosque. how come that there is? israel can get away with anything against the ballast in his violet. all human rights, yet this good, you know, no condemnation, no strong words nor thought of sanction, but yet where it concerns mr. currently and ours. yeah. and we are supposed to take stones. so, i mean i, i just find it this morality with a selective. i find that a bit hard to swallow, but, but i think, i think what we're discussing here is that you're also accused of your own selective or morality for criticizing india over kashmir, for instance. here at dodge, well we've done a lot of coverage of kashmir. we've also done a lot of coverage of the western powers unwillingness to criticize india to openly for geo political reasons. we covered that a lot, but i'm asking you about bad. she, jack, i'm asking you to,

to explain it. do you have your own double standards when it comes to a matter of shing jang. and also when it comes to the war and ukraine that you are simply evidently not willing to criticize. i either open richard, i am not dog. you are a television station. you are free to criticize anyone, but your governments, how have the ticket stand on cushman on what's going on the, the in and do 2019 on 5th august in the us violated and rational laws by taking away the state would of course be that was guaranteed to them or enlighten 40 it. now, was there any response? i spoke to the heads of states. i spoke to you as lamar girl i sports, or spoke to boris johnson about the what was going on and kashmir. no response. because india is an ally in the immediate aftermath of your time in office. you

were removed from office in april. you have been making accusations against the united states, a very publicly claiming a conspiracy your word to remove you, the united states denies this. this is an accusation. you've been very public with it. you stand by this claim that there was an american lead conspiracy to remove you from office will or to let be the outside explain the any one would want to have great relationship with the u. s. as a superpower and bogus, and particularly because we have a large amount of exports which would for which be said to the us. and secondly, that the most powerful pakistani community is the by the sally american community. and i had perfectly good relationship with a trump administration. now, i'll just give you the facts. these facts are a, we're a read out in a cabinet. there were a but presented in front of a national security johnson,

which then said that there was interference by the u. s. and they actually demolished the u. s. in pakistan and in washington and the supreme court chief justice, the president of our country, assent that cipher a which is which was where i best buy allegations on, has been sent to the chief justice to hold an inquiry. no, i'll tell you what happened 7th of march a u. s. or under secretary of state, donna lupe meets the bike study ambassador in washington and, and threatens him that unless m, ron hon, was removed. i, the prime minister was removed by a vote of no confidence. there will be consequences for pakistan on the next day. the no confidence has tabled this threat was issued before the nor confidence. so we have this sir cipher official meeting, but we the ambassador, and the, and the sir under secretary of state. this then i saw that as well as it went to

the president of the country. now, after that, the moment he issued the threat then came the look on finance portion and then up people's my own party members and our allies started abandoned us. so we have, so at least a 100, i would like to pick up the story at that point. so, and you have made these claims to united states is denied that it also, that the miller establishment ng in, in pakistan has not used the word conspiracy in what you described there. and i would cut it to you. that is not all of this talk of an american plot are really a way of obscuring a rather more simple truth that what happened to you is that you lost support. you lost the confidence of pakistan's military that you had of a sleet, some kind of falling out with general batch were the head of the military and this

opened up the space for them to drop you and for you to be challenged. well, richard, let, let be the sir. give you a bit of background. i wasn't bar for almost 4 years. the 1st 2 years our country went through very difficult i. we inherited a bankrupt economy, one of the biggest current account deficit. and i history. does that. so that can be easily googled. next, circum, the, the govern. 19. so 1st 2 years we really went through the country, went through bad times like we had on the 2nd everyone all over the world suffer during covered 90. but in the 3rd and 4th year, pakistan's economic growth. what was the, the, was the best after 17 years. we grew at $5.00 us and 6 percent respectively. is it not the case that what was fatal for you was losing the confidence of the military . the military gave you their confidence in 2018 that helped you get into office.

and now the military has dropped you her versus look up with a, by me making eggs acquisitions right now, a little whatever i said, the other people will deny it the best as the president of our country has said that cypher either regard rick, the record of the conversation between our ambassador and don and lou, his send it to the chief justice of pakistan to hold an open inquiry. so the best way we'll find out what actually happened if this enquiries held bill that little rather than a blaring are the people let they are and why you come out with the results of it. but you m e d. you seem very hesitant to criticize the military to criticize general battle. i mean, would you, would you have concerns for your safety? are you worried about criticizing the military publicly? i am not, i'm not worried about my safety. but i'd, the problem is that we live in

a very rough neighborhood. we need a strong army, a just look around in the, in the neighborhood. will we live this? what is going on in the world? i mean, so, you know, syria, libya are our finest on iraq, german, so bogus son needs a strong army. and so i would not want to do anything to undermine the strength of army or to do blame army. you may declare you want to try to get back into power, or you want to battle another election, or will you commit here to accept the results, whichever way it goes? or, or are you concerned that it might be wrecked against you? look, as it stands to do, richard, i'm afraid we have no confidence in the election commission because it is totally biased. it is your what so far? it's like what has been terrible. but for the future of august on the future of

pakistan lies in a truly democratic system. and democracy means you have to have free a free and fair elections if you do not have free and fair elections when people don't accept the result. after that, that's when the acrimony starts. a major issue for you in pakistan's, backyard is afghanistan. we've seen what is happening with the taliban. they're, they're back tracking on commitments on human rights, on girls education and, and many other issues. humanitarian crisis really taking place there. security crisis to do regret your job. sort of supportive position towards the taliban. do you still believe that the world should recognize the taliban? and if so, if you do believe that why should the world recognize the taliban given what we're seeing, the reality there now? well, 1st visited, i'm the only people i support are the people of afghanistan. and when we were,

when we, when i spoke about that, there's no military solution and of, honest on, ah, it was knowing the history of, of understand that eventually, you know, like the russians are, or by the soviets, before that, the british, or whenever outsiders have tried to impose a military solution, it hasn't worked in of one is done, they're very independent independent minded people. now, it immediately when you ever talk about her, you know that there was no military solution. people like we were dubbed as being brought taliban, we're prov, harness done. and at the moment up people and understand have peace after 40 years . now, in my opinion, you cannot impose human rights from outside and especially to a independent minded google as a bunch of afghan women, many of whom are fat, to flee the country, 5th of fearing for their lives for their rights. and it sounds like you're saying, well, just sort of accepted numbered. rooted what, what,

what joyce is every god, what can you do? i mean, the only joyce, what you're stating is that i solid them. but my point is that isolating them has far bigger dangers. who believe? remember, lucy, be doing anything at age? you ended up in of on a son? i didn't miss dennis early. mean military intervention. could you say use it like what kind of influence could you be using on the packet on the taliban to try to, to, to speak out against. this is what we're seeing it the actions towards women in particular . well, the do things again richard. one is that the of understand people are extremely independent minded. if you try and force your opinions to react, but in privately what, what, what i spoke to the taliban delegation her, they all brought women education. so what is happening in of venice on i'm,

i'm not quite sure what is happening right now, but in private they always talk about that her. yes, a women have a right to get educated around hun. we'll have to hope that these apparently private promises kept to so far. there is no evidence that they are being kept t. thank you so much for time. mr. han for speaking to dodge villa today with

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