ah, listen carefully. don't know how do you miss today? ah, feel the magic discovery of the world around you subscribe to d w documentary on you to russia claims it has captured the loo hans region in ukraine's east. it is also stepping up attacks against civilian centers, like residential buildings and shopping malls, ukraine's civilian casualties and troop losses are mounting as well as ukraine.

losing this wall. not at all. that's from my guess. the speak. joining me from luciano in switzerland. god, wilka is a former us ambassador to nato, and a former us special representative for ukraine negotiations. and he believes the west should be doing more to support ukraine. remember, ukrainians are paying for our security with their lives. we would be paying for their security with higher prices, but could crocks in the western alliance deal a long term support for ukraine. all this and more on conflict on about the culture. welcome to conflict on. thank you very much, great to be here. nato held a summit last week in which he declared its strategic concept, and russia was labeled a direct threat to the block. how does that help you cream? well, i think 1st off, it's important that nato actually do is 1st jobs,

which is collective defense. and so by recognizing the threat that russia presents in europe as a whole, not only against ukraine, but against nato allies as well, nato is taking an important step. and this gives nato a foundation for improving its own defense capabilities. increasing defense spending increasing high readiness forces deploying forces. further forward, all of this is meant to contain russia. it doesn't do anything for ukraine, specifically. but some of the other nato allies, of course, including united states in germany, and you are providing direct systems to train. but that's done outside the nato framework. not you said in a recent interview that when it comes to protecting the blog, nato has done a very good job. you just have the same thing right now, but when it comes to being relevant and effective in crisis management during the biggest war in europe, court, nato hasn't distinguished itself. is natal failing ukraine and buster vulgar?

well, i think nato is not playing a role right now. in this largest war, europe, nato was founded in order to create security for us and it is doing that. but it's 2nd core function from the strategic concept, even the one that was just to read at the madrid summit. it says the 2nd core function of nato is crisis management. and nato is not really involved in ending this crisis. russia's war against ukraine. one thing that i think natal could be doing even today is providing a clearinghouse function for arms and shipments to ukraine's united states. he's doing this out of ramstein here based doing it all the bilateral ages with many other countries. but this is something that nato has done for and could do in this case as well. what else you need to be doing is just about getting house functionally. is there more that need to could be doing to directly help ukraine? yeah, i think there are also functions in terms of intelligence collection and sharing

with screenings. there are communication functions that could be done. and most importantly, i think it's the training and equipping of ukrainian forces. nato could do that, but it's being done only by individual allies. at this time, so just going back to that summit in madrid, nato has committed more troops to the east. it has committed more troops to the baltic that has increased its response for by a factor of 8 to about 300000 nato is still not on the right track. well, no, i think nader is on the right track in terms of collective defense. as i said, i think there it is, gone, a very good job. the increases in high readiness forces, if they are truly realized, will be very significant. the forward deployment of forces to pull in mania and baltic states that's very important. and the inclusion of similar than sweden will do a lot of strength and security in northern europe. so all of those things are very positive. it is again coming to this question of ukraine and ongoing war in europe,

where tens of thousands of people have been killed and millions of been displaced. this is where we need all of us, whether it's individual allies or they don't, or frankly, the european union or others. we need to step on for support for ukraine or that ukraine can win this work quickly. let's talk about winning this war quickly. you can the presidency. lensky has been asking for long range artillery pieces for months. he's also asked for $5000000000.00 per month to keep the war going against russia. is finally going to get this. he's getting some of what he's asking for, but not all of it. the u. s. high rams missile launcher systems have arrived in ukraine are beginning to be integrated into the forces, and that is already helped the ukrainians take out some russia and initial depos. for instance, that lead to a poll airport. so that is important. we're also going to be getting some more

sophisticated air defense systems, which should help protect cities against them. but i think that's why the president, the landscape, is making that he's not getting them fast enough when you need them. is that going to stop to happen now? unfortunately, i don't see any change in that. i agree with president lensky. he's not getting as much as he needs. you need hundreds of thousands of more rounds of ammunition. he needs dozens more of the launch rock of systems artillery systems and he's getting smaller numbers and he's getting them at a slower pace. and i think all of us would like to see why it's not happening, is that because nato is dragging its feet, or because these talks just don't exist, to be able to provide them to ukraine when ukraine wants them. well, again, this is not something that nato is doing at all. it is something that individual nato countries or to a degree, the united states, germany, i know, has very low stocks, other nato countries all have very low stocks. the u. s. has been drawing down it

stocks of defense materials in providing a ukraine. but it is nonetheless taking a long time. this question, for example, about providing these multiple launch backup systems. the are the are longer range artillery. we knew back in february and march that this would be needed and it is now july and they're just arriving. so this is something where we could have acted much faster. what is the risk if these weapons on to deliver to ukraine when they want them? well, the risk is the more ukrainian di and the russians are using artillery to pounds, ukrainian divisions. they have a longer range artillery, so when they fire ukrainians don't have the range to fire back. they have thousands and thousands and thousands more rounds of ammunition than the premiums half. so the ratio is almost 10 poll. the russians are delivering. the russian stocks are

inaccurate. some of them don't work. estimates be anywhere from a half to 2 thirds don't work when they land, but even then, this is very dangerous for you draining. if they get the systems there, they can push the rushes back. i'd like to talk more about that and how the war is going. other you have so far recorded some more than 10000 civilian casualties in ukraine. some 12000000 people have been forced to flee the home. and now over the weekend, russia is claiming that it controlled the new hands. the region is ukraine, losing this war. not at all. russia entered this war in order to rebuild the russian empire to exterminate crane as a country and civil as a peoples. and it is utterly failed to do that gradients push them back from keep from the north east from su, need from germany, from odessa to the ukrainian stablish that they will remain a sovereign independent european democracy. this is critically important. russia

has taken about 20 percent of ukrainian territory that has come tremendously high price for russia. they're going probably now not to be able to take much more and try to dig in and defend instead. but i think the question, and best of all is what happens about this 20 percent? i mean, you're quite right. i will be hands the director of us. national intelligence did say russia controls about 20 percent of ukraine. but then you have president lensky remaining firm on the assertion that you crane will begin all of its sovereignty by the taking all of this territory. is this even realistic? is realistic, if ambitious, but it is realistic, ukrainian. now having basically let the russians exhaust themselves militarily, and russia not gaining more ground will now be in a position where they are just sitting there. ukraine will begin counter offenses

to retake territories. they won't be more strategic. the russians were what the russians just took, and no, hans, because not very, militarily insignificant ukrainians will be 1st trying to get the russians out of psalms, cutting off their supply lines. they're pushing them back, breaking the land bridge between don bus and crimea was probably around the little pole and trying to push the rushes further away from harkey. all of this, i think it's quite achievable how far the ukrainians can push back. who don't know yet, but we know they have the determination to fight. is this what victory looks like for ukraine given the situation on the ground now? well, victory for ukraine isn't survival as a sovereign independent european democracies. and that's already assured. now the question is, can they get all of their territory back or not? i certainly hope they can, but that will be part of the fighting that we see coming up later this summer. and in the, a lot of this will depend on how the negotiations finally end up. i mean,

they're supposed to begin at some point. they will have to begin at some point. and just on that point, electrical, your attention to a recent joint article in the paragraph that you create in foreign minister dimitra cool about authored with his u. k counterpart. lease trust they wrote and code 14 will only be seated about negotiations once the ukrainian people have pushed his troops back. now, i think we both agree that that won't be quick or easy. is there a risk that ukraine's western backers won't have the patients for that? there is a risk. you know, you do here, period of statements about we must not humiliate to didn't. i think there was president. who said that or the ukraine needs to negotiate the costs are too high. but every time that happens, ukrainians insist that it's their country. and they will be the ones to decide whether they are fighting back to retake it or not. and they have every intention to do so, and as long as the ukrainians maintain that resolved,

i am pretty sure that the western united states will continue to support you. i mean, you talked about what president mcroy had sent over. she was quite heavily criticized by the ukranian, but then you also have italy which circulated in may a piece plan which essentially put the don beth and crimea up negotiation between russia and ukraine. do you think that is a real risk? yeah, that region. nations in europe like germany, france, italy will push for a cease fire, even if that comes of the cost of ukrainian territory. yes, yes, i think that is a risk. you saw that the drug plan. you saw that with my colleagues comments rehearsal comments from germany as well, and especially at bruton will try to squeeze gas supplies to europe this winter. he hopes that by creating more pain for west europeans, it will cause governments in western europe to be granted given territory. i think

it is despicable that that is the plan, but that is what we'll try to do. and it is important that all of us keep up the support for ukraine and keep the pressure back on russia and not give in to those calls for ukraine to give them territory. what happens down the line? and best of all, if during negotiations, ukraine demands things that it's west and backers aren't ready to support. well it's, it's hard to know what that would be because at this point, i think the western countries that are supporting ukraine continuously reaffirm we support ukraine sovereignty and territorial integrity and grain has a right to fight back and reject territory. so there's nothing that ukraine is asking for saying that they have not received support for as a matter of principle from the west. that is for the time being. let's talk about the west as a whole. and i think by virtue, if you haven't been a us ambassador to native, we do need to discuss the us,

his role here moving forward. now, so far in the united states, it appears that the public is heavily behind whatever action the government is taking in support of ukraine. but given the domestic issues, some very divisive domestic issues that are playing out to the united states. now, how long can this public support stay the course? well, talking about the united states, i think that it will not only stay the course quoted or increase. the biden administration has been slow and doing partial steps and getting a lot of pressure from the congress. republicans and democrats to do more and do it faster, and that is based on strong public support for ukraine's. so i see the mid term elections actually strengthening the position in congress to push ministration to be doing even more. just about the midterm elections are going to be happening in november and it's widely predicted that the republicans will end up controlling the

house and the senate. you are certain that us bipartisanship will remain beyond november. yes, i think we've seen it already where you had a republican senator, senator johnny earnest, republican, senator foreign affairs committees and johnson, you have others and they are working very closely with their democratic counterparts. chan foreign relations committee. sen, manenda, europe's committee subcommittee chair sen, shaheen. they're all working together, they are pushing for more support to ukraine's and you have slips and, you know, have republicans in the majority of democrats and minority. i think we continue to work together to provide that support. you're giving names of you giving names of republicans that mil to throw some republican names at your senate hopeful, j. d events. for instance, a thing i caught,

i got to be honest with you. i don't really care what happens to ukraine one way or the other. you have senator ron paul, who is saying that the us shouldn't be ukraine's court sugar daddy. i mean, these are the worst of the 2 heading on the republican side of things. good. these voice is not effect the mood in the republican party going forward, especially after november. well, they are not the leading voices right now, and i don't believe they will be after november either ran pause in the senate for years. and he is usually expressed opinion like that and usually been quite along. there are in addition to that, do that, you mentioned j, v that is elected dental at a voice. there's a huge, there's one or 2 others who are often skeptical about continued us support or the scale with us support. but you have senator mitch mcconnell, minority leaders, if he becomes the majority leader again, he has offered very strong support for ukraine. and the vast majority of the

republican senator and i can name dozens of them, are very strongly supportive ukraine in fact, very critical administrations for not doing more. i mean, you talk about what was going to happen in november, but already in may we saw some opposition within the republican party, especially when it came to passing the 40000000000 dollar package of assistance for ukraine. you had 11 republicans in the senate, 57 in the house who voted against it. you are certain that this does not reflect cracks in the republican party over support for ukraine. no, there are fringes on the right and there are fringes on the left. who do not want to see the u. s. supporting ukraine for whatever reasons, whether it's budgetary or fear of russia, whatever it might be. but you also have to take that number 1111 republicans. you have a hands on with democrats as well. let's push it up to 20. that means there are still 80 senators, republicans and democrats, prepared to vote for just about anything to support russians or to post sanctions

on russia or support ukraine or brit sanctions on russia. so that a strong bipartisan support from the heart of both parties will remain. that is opposition within the democratic party as well as not just the republicans. i mean, representative ro cannot, for example, he has said, for long, never ending conflict is wreaking havoc on the american economy in the global economy. and people don't want to see a resigned attitude that this is just going to go along, go and go on as long as it's going to go on. surely present button can't ignore this going forward. well, that's what i just said. even if you take the fringes on both sides and put them together, you're still not going to get more than 20 votes in the senate. so that is a very solid majority to work with. and there are strong voices on the democratic side, including sen, manenda chairs, and a current relations committee. chuck schumer is currently the majority leader,

the head of the house foreign affairs committee. gregory makes all very supportive of the administration person or biden, and very supportive of the position that you ministration has taken to to provide a be great, i'm going to walk. you served under donald trump as opposed to wandering her in europe is if his isolation is brand of us foreign policy could make a return to the white house in 2024. is that a real concern? yes, people should be concerned about that. we've had, we take it beyond president trump, we had every us president, after their election talks in one way or another about pulling back from our commitments abroad and focusing on nation building at home as president obama said we're, if the economy stupid as president clinton said or not fighting other people's civil wars and ending to wars as president obama said. so this america, 1st policy president, trump, all you know, it is part of that tradition is

a little bit more outspoken in the way president trump does it, but it is a tradition up there that we do have to watch out for. fortunately, i think russians oppression that we saw since february as strengthened the international side of both the republican and democratic parties. and it has caused them just to recognize russia threats and the need to push back against them. right . let's look at the other side of western unity. what's happening here in the european union, sweden form. and linda has won that interest in the you can, water is fading because food prices energy prices are rising. they're expected to rise even further. heading later into the yeah, bonus johnson is warning of ukraine fatigue. can europe sustain support for the long term for ukraine? yeah, that's the challenge i think. and here we talked about already. i think it will get

harder for europe as russia squeezes energy. this winter's both in terms of price and availability. it's going to cause some real hardship in europe. and that in turn may put pressure on, say, hey, it's time for ukraine to shoot buyers. i think that that is the greater risk that we base right now. essentially what you're saying is russian gas could do it in europe, in unity, i have done so in the nav than it could be, could do. so again, it is certainly intention to use energy that way. so when, when natal chief installed in books is ukraine will have support from the block goat for as long as it takes. do you believe him? well, i do. i think he's making the right statements. i think it is the intention of every country now, but just as you're identifying how many these trends that are work you can on that engine, it could change. and that's what we all have to work against to make sure that both

in the united states and especially in europe, especially in the winter, if there's an energy crunch, that we have the fortitude to support ukraine. remember, ukrainians are paying for our security with their lives. we would be paying for their security with higher prices. you also said in march and best of the key to your prince, a viable is holding off. russian forces long enough for sanctions against russia to have that impact. do you think sanctions have gone far enough? no, i don't. i think that they need more time. and that is something where, you know, week by week we see some evidence that your sanctions are taking a bite. for instance, shareholders with gas bomb just voted to increase the amount of taxes that they're paying to the russian government as an indicator of the russian government. sure cash. so there are things that we're starting to see, but i think we need to close loopholes in the sanctions directly against smaller

russian backs that are funding for the bigger banks, financial transfers to russia that are still getting through and shipment of oil from russia. let's take away the insurance of those ships and imports of russian oil and gas, which are still not shut down. you're given the state of the european union the way it is right now. do you see that happening and told oil is certainly possible. there's no reason why our imports of russia oil could not be stopped gas. i know it's an order. i know people see a tough transition, especially going through this winter. but again, ukrainians are paying for this with their lives. we haven't had a sense of urgency, even if it means a bit higher prices. and i think europe has the means to actually be able to take off itself off of russia gas sooner than the end of next year, which is the current. let's look ahead to possible future ties between the you and russia. in an interview, on the 27th of june and the you said the following, the decision,

the europeans really need to be making is we can't live with this genocidal maniac . next door to us. any more, i think you and i both agree that 14 doesn't look to be going away anytime soon. so what does that future look like? well, again, you can deal with someone like he has ordered his forces into ukraine as a direct war of aggression use lie to all of us about his intentions. repeatedly, he had directed his forces to commit war crimes including use of rape as a weapon of war, including the killing civilians including the targeting and maternity hospitals and civilian facilities. so this is not something where anyone in europe can work with this. and this regime regime is going to have to go now that being said, i don't agree that we won't be seeing the end of good and anytime soon. there are many indications that he is in poor health. that may be one of the reasons why he

is driving so hard to steal these territories from crane. now you want to be part of his personal legacy. so i think that pressures are building as a result of the war effort and not going well for russia as a result of sanctions, as a result of internal pressure in russia that something may snap and we should just not be. we should not be afraid of that. we should keep pressing, putting the pressure on the rushing and best of all. what would you like to see happening now in europe? so that piece returns off of this war? well, i like to see russia withdraw its forces from ukraine. that's the way we'll have peace again is russia is able to continue to attack its neighbors, to steal their territory, to commit war crimes and get away with it. there will never be security in europe. one on a piece and remember that russia occupies parts of moldova and georgia as well. so

this, what we're seeing in ukraine is brutal, but is a continuation of a many years. and that means that pattern will continue in the future unless russia is forced to pull out of their current volker. we'll leave it there. thank you so much for joining us. very much. with with

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