i don't be afraid to make mistakes. nothing can soften. that is that you are right. i am actually to see you and found their purpose. so for taking care of this mean her women in asia into this week with 18 months after the violence on capitol hill. it's clear that us democracy was in greater danger than previously believed. testimony to the january 6th committee described the craze. donald trump grappling with his own secret service, determined to lead his arm, supporters to congress, and overturn joe by these election victory. america's political system might only

just have survived my guest this week from canada is david from former white house staffer in george w bush's administration. now writer and columnist for the atlantic magazine, he says the stakes were and still are frighteningly high. it's happening really to worry about. i can't, i wish i could give you more content. what this, i mean we do have the future of american democracy on the ballot. that's the number one ballot issue. last month for u. s. supreme court spoke divisions over 2 of the most contentious issues, abortion, and gun control. so is america's political fabric, a breaking point, and are all the warning light flashing red? why is donald trump full of praise reputed and do the russians have a point when they refer to the iraq war and the cues, the west of hypocrisy, key questions this week on conflicts. so, ah, david from welcome to complex zone. thank you. were told that on january 6th,

last year, a desperate donald trump arms flailing, sought to lead an armed mob to capitol hill, in an effort to overturn an election that he just lost. what would have happened if he'd succeeded? what you focus on the last action of the drama as if that were the whole story. but in fact, the invite incident of violence on january 6th, 2021 followed sequence of events that added up to a plan. that wasn't a great plan, but wasn't completely bonkers either. with donald trump hoped to do was to create enough confusion about the election to take the election away from the legal election process. as we've had for the life of the constitution and throw the election it into the courts of last resort under the american constitutional system . the house of representatives, if he could bust up the process, get the election into the house. the house of representatives spoke not one person

by one person by one person, but state by state, by state. and sister republicans had the majority of the state delegations, if he could throw the election into the house, he could somehow hold on to power. so there was a plan and it wasn't, it wasn't hopeless, it wasn't a great plan, but it was not hopeless. and the violent, dramatic act represented his last desperate attempt to get a strict plan back on track. so looking back, how close did he get to his goal? would you say? i don't think he became very close to school of remaining president, but he became very close to the school of disrupting the constitutional process and succeeded in putting to an end the long tradition of peaceful alternation our in the united states. this was, this was a non peaceful transfer power, and it's a stain on american constitutional history forever. and it's a precedent as well. it's a precedent and it's a warning. if we can see the warning, we can avoid the precedent. do you think jumbo,

his family or any of his most senior aides will ever stand trial for plotting what amounted to sedition? i have no idea what will happen, but i think it is important that the president do face legal consequences. you know, there's a lot of argument about this. mean, i'd say some people say it would backfire some people say it would not. i don't think you can predict the political consequences. and when you can't predict, when you're dealing with imperfect information, just do the right thing. if it's not illegal to overthrow an election by violence, i don't know what usually when this country you think it's vital that there's a full independent report into exactly what happened january the 6th and the events that led up to it. do you think that will actually happen, isn't the problem that this committee, the january 6 committee could have a very short lifespan? and if the democrats lose the house in the senate, in the mid terms, the republicans will shut it all down one day. i think the committee's work will be finished before the democrats lose control of congress if they do. and i think

certainly there is an instinct for the republican party to cover up. but it's also true that we can see in the polls, movements of republicans away from donald trump just today, just before you and i spoke, there was the newport showed, a majority of people regard themselves as republicans now think donald trump was indeed lying in his big lie about the election outcome. that's a big change, isn't it? it's a no, it's a sufficient change. it may be, it's still only a 55 percent of republican think he's wanting, but that's enough. all that is going to happen here and much understand the goal because it's not to be that what i mean. it would be nice if they were remorse and send and a commitment to a better way. but if you simply make it impossible for donald trump to be the republican nominee again, that's already progress. and we have a lot of we got a lot of toxins in the market political system to sweat out. but this is more than talks, and this is an imminent threat. and if he is knocked out of the political, we can begin to retrace steps back to normal political activity. he is

a long way from being knocked out of the political process, though isn't true. i mean, he said specifically that he's going to run, but the assumption is working assumption by many people is that he will, isn't it? he's raised enormous amount of money. he's got to name recognition and he's got one other motive, which is there is an informal policy in united states that if someone somebody is nominated for major office that the department of justice suspends any investigation of that person pending the election, they don't want to interfere in the election. and so if he does get the nomination, he buys himself some months where he can't be indicted. the gift isn't it is a gift to somebody who's the may have crooked intentions. i'm going to tell my theory about the way donald trump is run his life is that he's always been 36 hours ahead of the bailiffs, so he never has long term plans. he's. he's just got a plan not to get arrested that week. how do you combat though the

avalanche of lying and the seat that has swept in and captured the republican party during his tenure? have you come by the, i mean, these are loosely held beliefs that the republicans hold the unshakable articles of faith and their rallying cries for radical action and violence. sunday, how do you, how do you turn this back inside the republican party? nothing important is ever done with ease. of course, it's challenging. you do it by focusing on repeating the truth over and over and over again. and it makes a difference. you know, there was an internet joker, twitter joke in the early part of the trump presidency, or trump campaigns l o l. nothing matters because donald trump would say something outrageous and his support would not collapse. but i don't think that was true. i think the real story of the trump years was that everything mattered. it was just that there was a lot of everything. and so people relentlessly work to tell the truth, report, honestly, to uphold standards. there all kinds of ambiguous people,

people who were not heroes, but didn't go all the way to billing the either. and they made a difference. everything mattered. it all adds up. look, american, but america just one country of many. it's just one democracy out of many, but it is so big and so consequential that what happens here as global implications . so when so on the rise and so polarized isn't it and, and so polarized. well, i think democracies generally are becoming more, more, more polarized. i think that's part of modern life for reasons that maybe go beyond the end of the show. i think it's something but the nature of the way modern democracy works. but here it is most intense. and of course here we have systems that are not mediating our differences. and here we have 400000000 firearms. by the way, in a country of 33330000000 people. so when it does get polarized, they couldn't get file very fast. how did trump find so many enablers? so many defenders. so many liars and she threw to follow him. you wrote about the

complicity and cowardice of people who should have kept polarizing figures in check . did you mean mitch mcconnell, the republican leader in the senate? there are, there are circles of people in the republicans in congress. they are the people in the world around donald trump. donald trump does have a few great gifts, and one of them is he's got miss wolf like ability to smell weakness. if there's a corrupt, if there's corruption, if there's weakness, if there's the ability to bully, he can sense that and people and use that for his own purposes. and he also saw that there are some inherent weaknesses in the american political system that we had not suspected before. but he, he said maybe in a sub rational way. but he's got the bullies instinct for the person to target. and he wasn't above threatening and intimidating people as best he could. and using pardons as a means of basically undermining investigations into those around him. you know, add the press in the constitution, the president inherited the kind of kingly,

pardon, power, that the british kings used to have. but in modern times, this power has been kind of regularized precedence before trump did not pardon people at when they were they. they delegated it to a committee that made recommendations, and then presence would do pardons, typically in big batches toward the end of their career based on recommendations from committee. and there is sometimes be some personal interest. but the idea of using the pardon power as a regular tool of politics to protect people who testify against you. that's one of donald trump's innovations. and so very dangerous innovation. and when we need to undo, we need to get back to the idea of the pardons should be regularized and should be staff review federal cases and say, here's someone who looks like they are punished too heavily, or someone may be innocent or someone is reformed. and, and mr. president, we recommend that you use your power, his former national security adviser, john bolton said that obstruction of justice was a way of life for donald trump. fits in well with the description that you've given

him. yeah, i mean, donald trump, before he became president, was the least bankable name and your real estate. i mean, no reputable person would do business with him. i must absolutely had to talk to people in the real estate industry. i mean, he might have a piece of property that it was indispensable to land assembly and then you had to do business with them. but make sure you got a lot of lawyers because he was not a reliable or trustworthy person. so once you get that person, the power to control the department of justice, they're going to use it and he did. how helpful is it that in the midst of all the political polarization that we've been talking about, you have a right wing dominated supreme court seemed determined to stop divisions on abortion. and loosen, at least as far as new york is concerned, already. inadequate controls on gun ownership. how help with math. when the supreme court is proven to have very much an agenda of its own, it has been very unhelpful to donald trump on the particular things that that he wanted to do. that donald trump didn't, i think may not have understood quite the way the bargain he'd signed up forward.

mitch mcconnell got mitch mcconnell judges, but they were mitch mcconnell, judges who have delivered for republicans on, as you say, agenda items, like abortion, like guns, like regulation of the environment. but when donald trump turned to the court and said, i want you to protect my financial documents from waffle, subpoenas, congress. the court said nothing doing your on your, i don't have them. no one's listening that do you foresee a time when people might listen? what do you think it needs to happen? what needs to happen to change people's orientation on this? i think it begins with the kinds of changes and attitude we had with things like drunk driving. the whole world is riveted by these horrifying massacres, especially when it's actually and it's just, it's just heartbreaking, but day and day out. dozens of americans are killed or injured in accident or negligible, he will be, it will discharge and, and,

and hurt someone they lot of father will hear a noise and go downstairs if there's a house breaker and kill his own child. these things happen. i mean, literally every day and the killings are dwarfed by the wounded. in these accidental cases, people don't aim very who are not intending to kill. so we don't aim. and so the gun fires near the person, at least with lifelong disabilities. and those thousands of cases of those. and i think americans be to wake up that gun in your house is not keeping your safe. it is a threat to the people you love most get rid of it, get a dog instead. if you want to keep per house, they on abortion, your more optimistic than guns on you suggested told, tells us that we have about $6030.00 split on abortion. 60 percent of americans want a pretty broad abortion right. 30 percent of americans want to narrow abortion right . only a tiny minority one is the abortion band. under all circumstances, republicans are passing laws that are much more restrictive than public opinion,

even in the conservative states. and they did it because they thought it was a free vote. the supreme court was, you know, because the 3 court would stop the law from going to affect. so don't get to mad at you. there's a way of demonstrating your commitment to your core follows. but now it's real. and now when you pass a law saying, no rape exception, no, no instruct exception, no exceptions for life of the health that even in conservative states are big cities, atlanta, houston, doubts, tampa, tampa, phoenix, and they're a republican leaning suburbs for women say, you know, i'm pretty conservative and i don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control. it shouldn't be on demand, but no bush and ever even if the mother's life in danger, are you joking? and republican parties are going, i think, what is going to happen badly over portion is going to move from being a battle between democrats and republicans to a battle within the republican party. where some republicans are going to say, other republicans. you've gone too far. we talked earlier about the possibility of

trump running for election. we're already seeing efforts by his supporters to take control of election infrastructure in many states. how extensive is that in your view? it's a real world. it is a real worry and there's a because what donald trump did, the end was too clumsy and too gross for the american political system. that what other people have more shrewdly recognized, is that if you manipulate the system a little bit, you can't refuse to count votes once they've been cast. but it's not so difficult to stop the votes from being cast in the 1st place. and it's not so difficult to wait, devote some people's, what's count for more and other people's votes counts, count for less. and the american system is never been as represented as a parliamentary system is. but you can make it more equal as happened between about 960 and about 2005. are you pushing the opposite direction as we've been doing since 2005 and now with turbo power since 2020. but it depends. who's in control? of the election infrastructure isn't it?

at the beginning of june, at least 35 election denies were running for governor in 20 state. and in 6 states they were running for all 3 top state positions. should they win how safe our elections going to be in america? it's a, it's something really to worry about. i can't, i wish i could give me more confidence about this. i mean, we do have the future of american democracy on the ballot. that's the number one ballad issue. and it's, it's hard for people because, you know, gas prices are so crazy and food prices are rising and your real fears about world peace because of the russian aggression in ukraine. there's so much every day. bread and butter stuff to worry about. it's hard to remember that beyond all this, our 1st concern is the health of our democracy and that's on the ballot too hard to remember. but in its biden's poll ratings continue to fall the way they have been. trump may well not have to cheat too. when the next round, if suppose a right almost 2 thirds of registered voters, voters in the,

in the democratic party, don't one biden, to run for a 2nd term. can the, can, the democrats afford to ignore that message? well, that particular pull you decided i think is less meaningful than it sounds that one asked, would you like by no, would you like somebody else? and it's like me ask you what you like for dinner. would you like chicken or would you like something else that might be better than chicken? so i don't know. consequential. isn't it a present? yeah. yes but, but it's a hyphen, you're offering people hypothetical unnamed on specific alternative. and i think the questions. okay. if not, i'd and then who, and that becomes a real problem. but here's, here's, i think the way this plays out, the democrats are obviously heading into a very bumpy 2022 as incumbent parties are heading into bumpy elections all over the world. inflation is so real and so painful and the supply shocks are real. we are still unwinding the, the cobra disaster. but if republicans do well, then they have the job of not overreaching, not passing, that not tried to pass national portion bands,

not going crazy. the way they did in the middle 990. remember, the election of 1994 that swept the democrats out of power when president clinton was charged or publicans, then went so far. so while the president clinton read one real election by campaigning against republican congress and history never repeats itself, but that potential is there. it'll take a lot of discipline by republican congress not to make themselves the issue with 2024. the stakes are enormously high for 2024, aren't they? joe biden? hinted at that himself when he told a senior diplomat senior diplomat recently, i certainly hope my presidency works out if it doesn't, i'm not sure we're going to have a country. things really that bad. while things are, it's ominous as, as we've been saying, the state of democracy is on the line. one thing that is also on line is look on the question of ukraine versus russia. the republican leadership is reasonably solid. mitch mcconnell is a true friend of ukraine. he that he visited and committed to the craniums at arms

supplies would go through the senate. kevin mccarthy. the republican leader analysis is a much weaker and was effective leader than mitch mcconnell. but he to, it's been pretty good, but there is going to be an important caucus in the republican house of representatives group. that is anti ukraine. and the question after loading day in november 22 is how much power will those people have within the republican world? and a horse donald trump is no friend of ukraine and a great friend of russia, and some of the other republican candidates have kept very quiet. the likeliest alternative to donald trump is the governor, florida governor, just hand and governor, just had this has not said a word, a supportive word. it gets you great about ukraine is not said anything against ukraine, but it's an incredible thing for someone who's obviously running for president to have kept so silent about that. he's struggling. one of the most crucial foreign policy lines we have. how do you read donald trump's praise for russia? calling put in

a very savvy guy and saying this is genius as he was preparing to invade ukraine, same from mike pump. trump's former secretary of state, colin, put in a very talented statesman with lots of gifts. what do you think behind that? well, it might come pay us case. i think he just was trapped and clumsy wording. pump k, o has been robust in supportive of ukraine as well as robust as you could while working for donald trump in donald trump's case. look, every, everybody needs a hero and donald trump found he has invited me to put biden always says he has ukraine's back. you believe him? i think the ukraine, that it taken us a while there been some missteps. the, by much the whole democratic world has rally to be great too crazy, and this is more that can be done, especially can remember quite as a quite developed country ukraine at the same time as it is fighting a war, has to deliver pensions as operate hospital services has to keep children in school in the cities where the war is and the bandpass deal with this vast refugee

diaspora. all of that cost more amounts of money while they fight a fight in which we are all at. once we are all involved, russia dismisses criticism of its ukraine invasion by talking about western hypocrisy. look what they did in iraq, 20 years ago. they say, could you not? the point doesn't have 100000 people died in iraq for a war based on 2 big lives didn't. but what kind of point is that? i excuse me when i fire this rocket into an apartment building because back in 1816, there was a battle on the some crudeness firing rockets right now. he's waging a war of aggression right now. and these kinds of excuses there are teenage debating points. they don't answer anything about the to the people who are grieving their last loved ones, wives, children, husband in court, yard apartment building just stop shooting the brackets and stop trying to invade another country and seize its grain in order to make yourself rich. but the west can hardly claim the moral high ground can it when it's done, things like that,

go to war under false pretense in iraq. this is not, we're not engaged here in some kind of accounting exercise to gauge here and try to stop a war of aggression by one great power nuclear on power against a neighbor that did nothing to offend. russia is engaging and active aggression. and we're all routing to protect the victims of russians, aggression. you said the war cast a long shadow, isn't it? also a pretty shameful shadow in many ways, the iraq war, the iraq, the iraq war is a complicated story. because in that case, we are not united states and its allies, brickley, britain, we didn't go were to overthrow democracy, went to war to overthrow one of the most vicious dictators in the post, 945 history of the world. we were not successful in achieving a stable and outcome as we hoped. but i don't think anybody graphs that saddam hussein is gone, no one in iraq and no one outside iraq. and so we were in the issue. there is one we weren't successful in doing what we hope to do,

but to suggest that there is some excuse for russia, but in its war of atrocity atrocity as a deliberate tactic of war in ukraine. you know, they can invoke anything they want, but the fact is they are firing rockets at apartment buildings right now. you are one of george w bush's speech writers at the time. in fact, you co writer what i missed, the axis of evil phrase that he used in his 2002 state of the union speech speech test on iraq, north korea, and iran. and said, state like these and that terrorist allies constitute an access of evil arming to threaten the peace of the world. in any of these cases, the price of indifference would be catastrophic. looking back, are you not troubled that that speech that you worked on might have been used to, but just a war that was built on lies and intelligence that didn't exact false intelligence that people knew was false. since that speech, north korea has become a nuclear power and around is become on the verge of nuclear power into the world

as a much more dangerous place because of north korean nuclear weapons and for and gets nuclear weapons will be more dangerous place to get. so president bush, some of the american people and some of the world's attention to the danger of these regimes in case of around one was leading state sponsored terrorism, getting these dangerous weapons. i that all struck me as, as completely necessary to say. so i think president bushes warnings were timely, incorrect. i wish the iraq war had been more successful. i'm sorry, it was more success and no regrets about the lives that but just it. i think that everyone involved did read the information they had as well as they could. it's not a lie when you turn out to be mistaken about something. i think president bush sincere, i know you sincerely believe that iraq had weapons of mass destruction. he was wrong about that as, as others were. as you see, the time the c i is paris, the station chief bill murray said there was a consistent effort to find intelligence that supported preconceived positions. and

as i had bad intelligence got to the leadership very quickly, other intelligence just didn't get anywhere before my head of britons and my 6 said the intelligence was being fixed around the policy. and that was a year before the invasion. i think there's a lot of truth that i think that people had a stereotype view of what was going on and they look for information that supported the view and disregard that information that didn't. that is, that is a real danger in, into, in any kind of decision, a one. i just want to important lessons with iraq or you need to have always a team be you need have at the table. people saying ok, i know it looks a certain way, but what if we read this information in a different way? i think that those criticisms are, are completely correct. david sam, it's been very good to have your own company zone. thank you very much. in date, thank you very much. ah

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