her with its waters connect people of many cultures, seen it almost hard and to far of dual career drift along with exploring modern lifestyles and mediterranean where it has history left its traces, meeting people hearing their dreams ready to mean journey intended to so starting august 14th on t w little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power of my guest this week, former prime minister because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands . and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life. after opposition, politicians bearish,

the am tough, was killed in 2015. and he still does everyone in the rush. no shoot. this kid's a normal custom. but how secure is putting himself, what about the rumors of ill health? how does he think this war in ukraine can any? and why all those years ago did russian president boris yeltsin, groom and unknown k, g, b, colonel as his successor? all that and more on complex. for me car cassiano, welcome to complex zone. hello tribute to be review. you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you? it's difficult to difficult them,

although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. just always was under pressure, but these i would say risk to be a b, b in jail, it would be samples. of course, i decided not to keep not to take the risk and i will out the russian. are you scared of the my put in i'm afraid of all the situation for all the russians. for my stamps on my family, of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want mike oliver raises my political lecture used to be in jail. unfortunately, i already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law that it's already just applicable and your law and just watching them. kids seem just punishing people for the criticism of the resume as an opposition figure. how carefully do you have to calculate what you say and do,

given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i'm really speaking joseph, this style which i used to have just but always was not ready to go by blaming. but of course i'm making judgments and giving judgment, go events and miss miss supporting them kids to do. but of course, i'm a freak book, but after your fellow opposition leader barry's new, i'm tough was shot in 2015. you said you fed for your life. do you still feel for your life? everyone and the rest should be scared and the future life and me to normal us. of course, of course, right now in russia that this upset is the difficult sedation of people's case about us to opposition. figures were apparently assassinated in

2003 while you were russians. prime minister, 2nd, you should cough who set up the liberal russia movement. and the journalists, you're a sugar cheese and who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might have organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from today's point of view. it seems to be like a boss at that time. we had no information, i have no feeling that would be involved from today's prospect or from today's i mean what this resume is doing. it is clear that could be the case, but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place? no. not of course. of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them

as prime minister? there was, there wasn't least occasion open open by just searching or particular office by the police and it was done. but unfortunately nothing could just know what was, what was unfortunate. but did you suspect the head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the, the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they were state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i didn't believe that was baseball, since i was pre approved by them completely. it was involved in the uniforms and we should be successfully them. that's of course i knew all those problems which will

happened at that time. but i was completely occupied with this situation. but the reforms with economy, with the social sphere. no, that wasn't from my cabinet launched and that was my priority. again. mister fortune was at the head of a lot of the feel of the kids and all the services that security services. but he's, he was in charge on the say controlling all those investigations. there been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean just of course i don't know any authorization of any kidding but doesn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them? who would have ordered these assassinations at what level?

as far as you know, at what level would these killings had been decided? what, getting the killing of people who are opponents of the rush and state like alexander living in co for instance, 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know, we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right. no, just kidding in mind. what's going on right now in my country? we can guess that that could be in the highest level. the same as you said, just nation of their bodies in salt and other people would like living in london and other people just so of course, of course it would be would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over, people who speak out against russia, isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition inside the country all those days over completely right now,

of course its position is unsafe and the problem magic situation last year, support and just support many activities put in jail samples for many years. and that's why i'm just the position destroyed companies, but evidently in the upcoming future, their considerations will come and positions will grow up. because of all developments taking place right now. i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling and i think that the combination of those sectors would leave and then it would lead to that too strong opposition moment and it didn't change in the future. do you think the west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition figures? do you think they turned a blind eye to them? at least in the early days when they started and put in the regime? i thought this way that's completely disappointed and the reaction with the

reaction on the regional and george ration upgrade me. but in terms of key didn't go those people because recall there was there was an action that the government that i remember just reactive quite strongly. and of course, just when mister minister was killed in and not far from crammed him just that action was not so great, not so house. and at that time, just the london washing on the medicaid and the europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting doesn't mean so was i would say. ready one of the most non leave, the so rational position, let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think put in the future actions will be

affected or altered by western sanctions? you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him. this package is the sanctions which will import those as a reaction for invasion into the range of course shocked him. and of course the sanctions that the sort of prevention was that the spanish month for the korean elect to support him. and i think that that, that suck him has a sucking effect for you and for other people around him. and of course that would lead for so great extent, devastating go financials, amanda economy or russia. and it will create some kind of for the race and negative, or did she was 4 or the people? of course, middle class i realized the same day again, students with criminal activity in their grades, but i think just even wide,

wide apart olaja parker population where the school will wake up. it will start asking questions why it's happening that they leave the watson was and the propaganda will not be able to provide the appropriate answers to them, which will satisfy them and they will start playing with mr. william for ever think what's happening. to what extent do you think western measures have hit the personal wealth of putins in a circle or his own wealth for that matter in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys. yet on the organized crime and corruption reporting project valued, the total holdings of putin and he's in a circle of family friends at nearly $24000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think for me to put it on a himself, it doesn't change. she's no style of life was noticing. but for people around, if you could enjoy life just in having everything, just all those assets inside,

rush on the outside for them. it's a problem that's absolutely the case and they completely just radio the leave from the and their company to you from the environment and, and they unsatisfied with this. and they expected that the west would so close the size and would certainly come back sooner or later. to business as usual, but it doesn't seem like these. and that's why this way they quite busy music or they have quite busy music sentiment and they just don't say disappointed. great, right now. we're 3 months into the war. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it stood around on the borders posing threateningly. but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take a f. it failed to take hockey, which is on the what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big a humiliation has it been for russia, the performance of its armed forces so far?

i think their propaganda managed to choke a different way. and i know that people don't feel that fortune already defeated. it's not the case of but you're right just that the sheet on the, on the, on the bible, children from the origins of your grain, of course, creating some kind of basic needs to quote that you. and in fact, they know it cannot even just expand their complaints or to the administration, but as of august. and then he has a regency with these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course there is a and on bus that is a 2 month forward. but it is a much less than that. first of all, just people are people expected to go to mr. william to reach you. and that's why

that's already already the same as me. there exists for supplies, effective supply. so a grain, of course, creating a possibility for them to race the race. and i would say a prayer for decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by autumn they will be able to have this advantage and battlefield. and then this additional stuff changed quite to record you work tundra, put in as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him personally? i don't know to what extent just so we can see they know him well of course i met him just a few few times to leave a regular it just we discussed different aspects or 3rd or 4th my just him

i trust to the grid extender that he promised when i agreed to be a prime minister, if you still streaming this, then you saw. so just to put my conditions that make additions war, that mr. put in that window for support. all the reforms by coming from the shade and she implemented those promises just that with the exceptions, he didn't support the reform of gas sector, which was that then also included a cargo for gas from, for, for, for different institutions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this you there in a straight to for, for beach supposed to cut government responsibly to do some government activities in the economy and social fear. you've said that the put in new new 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way mister cassiano completely completely different than the whole,

the whole odyssey she is on the day. and that's contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russia was absolute integrated and walt economy and then the role politics, the excellent relations with the european union when we launch those for fear. so we can make up, we had a lot of invite, a lot of foreign to be in the west direct capital direct from west one's in the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, the other countries. we was just fossil civilized, more than that, but we haven't comes in hand but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he? were you aware that this was the thought of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no might, it might sound, it was not the case only in the last year. and then those 2003,

when we started to press the businesses and he started, as you said, pointing, and you people from, from a k g, b for important positions. and that's the end. there was already, i was right there with disagreeing with him. and we was absolutely different in different positions on the policy, on the crane on dealer was on the bus from on the state, different ball and we had the radio and press on businesses. i would remind them that i'm just the press on the same color. kosky was the radians ale, and that was also i was a public use agreement with you. that's what and that's time. and they had 2003 these process as you said, just of change, you can use the stuff that year. let me take you even further back. because when put in arrived in moscow i it was a 996. what are you not suspicious about an unknown k g,

b colonel and the former deputy mayor of some petersburg suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that? was not suspicion either, but i will tell you frankly, just which in which in being here for my case should be agents. i believe the complete development for new developments will make up a democrat to russia and the supporting just markets economy all those reforms. and i believe for that and that's why i agree with you. and i, i definitely also the case that mr. brandon also believe that which will continue continue to use the macro function, russell potent made his reputation. whatever reputation was in the 90s in st. petersburg, which by then was a byword for corruption,

wasn't an organized crime. a murder was known as bounded city in russia. not a single business from the st kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside matthew control. but putin effectively ran the city's financial system. that was quite a tight rope to walk, wasn't it? and it was not, not, as you have just described in the, from the information we all have today. you were making such a description. right? no, but on that time a we didn't, we russel's are leaving there with didn't believe the old awesome signals or pete on the, on those couple of journalism that, but that was not the case. and they wouldn't say that you said that mr. cassie on a bit in saint petersburg, the deputy prosecutor general said in 1904 interview that i did with him. that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs. the police counterintelligence the courts. suddenly the crime rates rose very sharp, he said,

and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general valeri both shook off said it in 1994 of them. if you're dead, then i think that i'm just people in law school in the government do, benson to these or just they just as important information. maybe it was the judge of i don't know, i was not responsible for that. just judging those report. so for debbie to general general prosecutor of son, because whatever got this name and i said, and that missed against believe that put him is a good man. and he, a good, i would say in a successor or for continuation of those changes, mr. get some stuff and when, when the, this edition comes to me came to me whether i would die when that time. i was already in the 88 and i was minister of finance and the women this is asian came to

me where they will be working with william. i said yes. subject that portal will support my initiatives. and he personally instrumental responses. you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin pushed through, but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchy. is that rub to russia blind? didn't he? thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? it is not the definition with joseph stripe that it was, and i can admit that it was unfair privatization, but not in this. i should colors you have just use it was, it was legal, but not fair. it was, i was a political mistake, but mr. garrison,

as i understand that the reasons are to lose and that time. yes, that was unfair. and they wanted to change the situation. i wanted just to impose a session for those on regards for those people who appear to be there and there's with as a result of these privatization. but mr. wouldn't allow me to pursue this with this subject. you wanted to, if you wanted to get all those kind of got us on the hook and what he and he's still have this hoops on all those. well, some people how vulnerable is posted now to the people who he works with inside his in a circle who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if that someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as was this is he is, is that the case? there is no one who is,

who is strong enough. who's the one of my others who's capable to run becomes a mr. put him just deliberately, just grades with such a situation that they will not be any feasible. it placement for him. and the propaganda explains to rational people as the case only fortune. and that's why i just have a population off in the questions just who is if not pointing, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they're forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, richard dale of the former head of britons foreign intelligence service, said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that, but my feeling also such that could leave could leave just next year and coming. awesome. i think some guy in the morning what starts i peer

and i think most of the stuff is the same. how to do pup. but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing. it's not based on any specific information that's might fit. it goes, i know some of people who are still around with me and i know a little luck of all, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my prediction, that the situation is develop a negative since a negative man med met, negative directions and thinks how to, to get out of this, there is no scenario how good and, and how good. and this is it, as i said, they both shots as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking just trying to build up a scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have to waste to come back the station before february 24th or just to move

a rush at all was just sample lake. north korea, but nothing done in what i do these directions. that's where people simply waiting what's going on. what's happening in the bottles you. that's why i'm saying just that the, the front line with this and the water bottle fuel to success. that is a crucial point. for, for future of russia future for your grand anger is in change and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield. not in negotiations. exactly. but jim is not prepared for any negotiations. the ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all. i leave it and they are not ready to give any to the concessions mister potent doesn't, doesn't accept a defeat. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting and that's why she will be better. just get out of the position

rather than just to be defeated and that be a leader that's for him. that's the most sensitive the most crucial point. me how cassiano it's been good to have young conflicts and thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. it was great. ah, ah, ah, with

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