a prisoner tardy is one of the main causes some young children work in mind drafts instead of going to class and we can attend classes only after they finish working millions of children all over the world can't go to school. we ask why? because education makes the world more just make up your own mind. d. w, made for minds. little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power. but my guest this week, former prime minister, because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life. after opposition, politicians bearish,

the am tough with killed in 2015. and he still does everyone in russia, no shoot. this kid's a normal person, but how secure is put in himself. what about the rumors of ill health? how does he think this war in ukraine can n, and why all those years ago the russian president, boris yeltsin, groom and unknown, k g, b colonel as his successor. all that and more on conflict, so ah, we can catch young of welcome to complex zone. hello trip to be with you. you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in, providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you?

it's difficult to difficult them, although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. i just always was under pressure, but these i would say risk to be a be to be in jail. it would be samples. of course, i decided not to keep not to think this risk and i will out the russia, are you scared of the my put in i'm afraid of all the situation for all the russians. for my stamps on my family, of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want my raises my political activities to be in jail. unfortunately, i already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law. that is already just applicable and your law and just watching them kids seem just punishing pupil for the criticism of the resume as an opposition figure. how carefully do you have to calculate what you say

and do, given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i feel you speaking joseph at this style, which i used to have just but always was not ready to go all bleeding. but of course, i'm making judgments and giving judgment the will events and miss miss support and his team do. but of course i'm free to talk, but after your fellow opposition, leader bearish. now i'm tough, was shot in 2015. you said you feared for your life. do you still feel for your life? every one and the rest should be scared and the future life and me tool and normal custom. of course, of course, right now in russia, that is the difficult sedation of people's case about themselves. to

opposition fingers were apparently assassinated in 2003, while you were russians. prime minister said you should cough who set up the liberal russia movement. and the journalists, your sugar children who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might have organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from the base point of view, it seems to be like it was at that time. we had no information. i have no feeling that would be involved from today's prospect. from today's, i mean this resume is doing. it is clear that could be the case, but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place? no. not,

of course. of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them as prime minister? there was, there wasn't instigation, open open by just searching or particular office by the police and it was done, but unfortunately nothing could just froze. what was, what was unfortunate, but did you suspect the head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the upon the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they will state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i don't believe that was false and i've always provide them completed. it was involved in that uniforms and we should we successfully be them. that's of course i and your all those problems to be true happens at that time. but

i was completely occupied with the situation. but the reforms with the economy with the social sphere, you know, that wasn't better from my cabinet launched, and that was my priority. again, mr. fortune was at the head of a lot of the feel of the kids and all the services security services. but he's, he was in charge on a controlling all those investigations. there's been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then, both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean, just of course i don't know any authorization organic meetings, but i didn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them? who would have ordered these assassinations at what level?

as far as you know, at what level would these killings have been decided? what getting the killings of people who are opponents of the russian state like alexander living in conference 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know. we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right? no, just kidding in mind. what's going on right now in my country? we can guess that that could be in the highest level. the same as you said, just others in the some of them about his name, salt and other people would like live in london and other people just of course, of course, it would be, would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over, people who speak out against russia, isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition inside the country all those days over completely right now,

of course its position is unsafe and the problem object situation last year, support and just support many activities put in jail sentence for many years, and that's why i'm just position destroyed. but evidently in the upcoming future, their considerations will come and positions will grow up. because just of all developments taking place right now, i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling. and i think that this combination of those sectors would leap and then it would lead to that too strong opposition moment and change in the future. do you think the. a west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition figures. do you think they turned a blind eye to them? at least in the early days when they started and put ins regime? i thought this way, they are completely disappointed and the reaction western reaction on racial and

george and like facial of grey me. but in terms of he didn't go those people. we can recall there was with there was an action breach government that i remember just reacted quite strongly. of course, just when mr. put in mr. young so was killed in, not far from criminal justice. they actually was not so great not so harsh. and at that time job, so be that the langon the while she's on medicaid vehicles in the europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting because it's a min. so of course, i would say the one of the most known leads us or russian opposition. let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think pollutants future actions will be

affected or altered by western sanctions? you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him. these packages of sanctions, which were impostors, or as a reaction for witness invasion into grade, of course, shocked him. and of course the sanctions that the sort of promotional war that was punishment for the criminal activity with mr. william. and i think that this, the sucking has a sucking effect for william and 4 other people around him. and of course, that will lead for, oversee, so great extent, devastating. go over a financial them and they call me russia. and that will create some kind of the race and negative i did use for the re people of course, middle class i realize these and they against we didn't, we didn't like to begin their grades. but i think just even why,

why the larger part, the population where they will wake up and stuff, asking questions why it's happening. they leave lots of walls and propaganda will not be able to provide appropriate answers to them, which will satisfy them and they will start blame. you can, we can ever think what's happening to what extent do you think west and measures have hit the personal wealth of putins in a circle or a zone? well, for that matter, in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys yet, and the organized crime and corruption reporting project valued the total holdings of putin. and he's in a circle family friends at nearly $24000000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think but mister putting himself, it doesn't change. she's style of life was kind of everything. but for people around him to enjoy life, just having everything,

just all those essence inside rush outside for them, it's a problem that's the case. and that they completely just the radio, the leaf in the company, it's a different environment and that's and they, and such as fight with this. and they expect that the west would close size and come back. so no way to, to be usual, but it doesn't seem like this. and that's why that's why they quite pissed the music that they have quite nice sentiment and they would say, disappoint greatly right now. we're 3 months into the wall. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it stood around on the borders posing threateningly. but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take a f. it failed to take hockey, which is only what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big

a humiliation has it been for russia, the performance of its armed forces so far? i think their propaganda managed with different ways. and right now that people don't feel that fortune already defeated. it's not the case of it, but you're right just that the sheet on the, on the bible, children from the origins of your grain, of course, creating some kind of music at you. and in fact, they know it cannot even just expand their complaints or to the administrator for those of us. and then he has a regency with these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course, there is a and on bus that was a 214 or 2. but it is a much less than it falls in all just people are people expected to

miss the point to reach you. and that's why it that's already already the same as me. there exists for supplies, effective supply. so a grain, of course, creating a possibility for them to race the race. and i would say a prayer for decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by autumn they will be able to have this advantage and battle field. and then this vision will start change quite to record you work tundra 14 as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him? personally, i don't know what extent just so we can see they know him well, of course i met him just a few few times to leave a regular it just, we discussed different aspects of foss. my trust him,

i trust to the great extent that he promised when i agreed to be a prime minister q, so framing the stance you saw. so just so i put my conditions that make additions war, that mr. put in the window for support. all the reforms by coming from the shade and then she implemented those promises just with the exceptions. he didn't support the reform of gas sector, which was that then also include a cargo from gus from for, for, for different solutions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this you there in a straight to for, for beach, supposed to cut government responsibly to do some government activities in the economy. and social fear. you've said the putin, you knew 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way mister cassiano completely completely different than the whole the whole odyssey she has

undertaken this contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russia was absolute integrated and the old economy and then the world politics we had an excellent relations with the european union when we launched those for fear. so we can make up we had to lot of invite a lot of foreign capital to be in the west direct capital, direct the westerns and the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, other countries. we was just fossil civilized, more than that. comes in hand, but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he? why are you aware that this was the thought of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no might, it might sound,

it was not the case only in the last year and the end of 2003, when we started to press the businesses and he started, as you said, appointing. and you people from a former k g, b for important positions, and that's the end. there was already, i was the radio with disagree with him. and we was absolutely different in different positions on the policy on the ukraine, on deal that was on the gus from on the state different ball. and we had the ready and press on businesses. i would remind you of them that time just the rest on the same color coast cables and radians ale. and that was also, i was a public use agreement with you. that's what and that's time. and they had 2003 these process as you said, just of change, you can use the stuff the year. let me take you even further back. because when put in arrived in moscow i it was a 996. what are you not suspicious about an unknown k g,

b colonel on the form a deputy mayor of sim petersburg. suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that was not suspicion either. i will tell you frankly just which and which in being here for my case should be agent. i believe the completed development for new development for doing the got them a graphic rushing and supporting just market economy, all those reforms. and i believe that that's why i agree with you. and i, i definitely also the case that missed the yes, some of that. but i'm also the way that step which would continue continue to shoot them across russia. potent made his reputation, whatever reputation was in the 90s in st. petersburg, which by then was

a byword for corruption, wasn't an organized crime. a murder was known as bounded city in russia. not a single business from the st. kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside matthew control, but putin effectively ran the city's financial system. that was quite a tight rope to walk, wasn't it? and it was not, not, as you should have just described the, from the information we all have today. you were making such a description, right? no, but on that time, no, we didn't. we russel's are living there with didn't believe the old awesome signals are piece on there on the a couple of journalism. but that was not the case. and they wouldn't say that you said that mr. cassie, on a bit in saint petersburg, the deputy prosecutor general said in a 994 interview that i did with him. that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs. the police counter intelligence,

the courts. suddenly the crime rate rose very sharp. he he said, and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general. valerie both shook off said it in 1994 of them if you're dead and i think that i'm just people in law school in the government do pay attention to this or just they didn't take us as important information. maybe it was the judges. i don't know, i was not responsible for that, just judging those reports. so for debbie to general general prosecutor of son because whatever never got this name and i said and that mr. against believe that to put in with math. and he a good, i would say in the success of a continuation of those changes miss the instance. and when, when the, this edition comes to me came to me whether i would, i would, that time i was already in the $8899.00. that was minister of finance and the women

this is asian came to me where they will be working with william. i said yes. subject that will support my initiatives. and he personally instrumental responses . you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin push through, but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchy. is that rub to russia blind? didn't he? thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? it's not a definition with joseph. describe that it was and i can admit that it was unfair privatization, but not in this. i should colors you have just use it was, it was legal, but not fair. it was, i was a political mistake, but mr. jensen, as i understand, had the reasons for losing that time. yes,

that was unfair and i wanted to change the situation i wanted just to impose additional i would say that sation for those regards for those people who appear to be there in the us with as a result of these privatization. but mr wouldn't allow me to pursue this, this subject you wanted to, you wanted to get all those hadn't got us on the hook and what he, and he's still have this hoops on all those well to people how vulnerable is posted now to the people who he works with inside his, in a circle who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if not, someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as ruthless as he is. is that the case?

there is no one who is who is strong enough, was supported by others capable to run the country. mister william, just deliberately just create such a situation that they will not be any feasible placement for him. and the propaganda explains to russian people as the case only fortune. and that's why i just have a population asking the question just who is if not point, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, richard, dear love the former head of britain's foreign intelligence service, said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that, but my feeling also such that mr. could leave, could leave just next year and coming awesome things. some guy in the

morning, what starts at tier, and i think most of the stuff is the same. how to do pup. but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing. it's not based on any specific information. that's my feeling. it goes, i know some of people who are still around with me and i know a little luck involved, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my predictions that the situation is develop a negative a negative manner. med that negative directions and food you thinks how to, to get out of this. there is no scenario. how good and the walks and how to and disagree. as i said, they bore shots as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking just trying to build up a scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have to waste to come back dissertation before february 24th or just to move around the thoughts. just

some bull lake north korea, but nothing done in what i do these directions. that's where people simply waiting what's going on, what's happening in the bottles, you'll bessler, i'm saying just that the, the frontline with the bread that's and the water bottle fuel to success. that is a crucial point for, for the future of russia future for grants and change. and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield. not in negotiations. exactly, but capuchin is not prepared for any negotiations. the ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all excluded and they are not ready to give any return or concessions mister potent doesn't. doesn't accept a defeat. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting and that's why she will be better. just get out of the position

rather than just to be defeated and be a leader that's for human as the most sensitive the most crucial point. me how cassiano it's been good tabby on conflicts and thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. it was great oh oh, with

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meeting people, hearing their dreams. a mediterranean journey in tenant starts of august 14th on d. w. ah. ah, this is these are the news live from berlin? nancy percy leaves high one as tensions rise with china. the us health speaker has promised america will not abandon the island of visit has enraged beijing, which is now staging military drills also on the program should.