as we take on the world, i do all these were all about the stories that matter to you. whatever it takes to find policeman a here we are here is actually on fire made for mines. little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power. but my guest this week form of prime minister because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life, after opposition. politicians, barish?

yeah, i thought was killed in 2015 and he still does everyone in the rush, a normal person, but how secure is put in himself. what about the rumors of ill health? how does he think this war in ukraine can n, and why all those years ago the russian president, boris yeltsin, groom and unknown, k g, b colonel as his successor. all that and more on complex. so for me car cassiano, welcome to complex zone. hello trip to be review. you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in, providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you? oh, it's difficult to difficult them,

although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. i just always was under pressure, but these i would say risk to be to be in jail in the sentence. of course, i decided not to keep not to think this risk and i will out the russia, are you scared of the my put in i'm afraid of all the situation for all the russian sense. for my stamps on my family. of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want my raises my political activities to be in jail. unfortunately, i already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law that it's already just a legal and your law and just watching them kids seem just punishing people for the criticism of the resume as an opposition figure. how carefully do you have to calculate what you say and do,

given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i'm really speaking just this style which i used to have just but all went was not to read to go over blaming. but of course i'm making judgements and giving judgement the will events and mrs. mr. put him on his team do, but of course i'm free to book. but after your opposition leader berrish nam tough was shot in 2015. you said you fed for your life. do you still feel for your life? every one and the rest should be scared and the future life and me tool and normal custom. of course, of course, right now in russia, that is the difficult sedation people's case about themselves to

opposition fingers were apparently assassinated in 2003, while you were russians. prime minister said you should cough who set up the liberal russia movement. and the journalists, you are a sugar cheese and who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might've organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from the base point of view. it seems to be like it was at that time. we had no information. i have no feeling that would be involved from today's prospect from today's i mean this resume is doing this clear that could be the case. but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place?

no. not, of course, of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them as prime minister? there was, there wasn't instigation open open by just searching or particular office by the police and it was done. but unfortunately, nothing could just know. what was, what was unfortunate, but did you suspect as head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the upon the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they will state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i don't believe that was false and i've always provide them completed. it was involved in the uniforms and we should be successfully the them that's of course i and your all those problems to be true happens at that time. but

i was completely occupied with the situation. but the reforms with the economy with the social sphere, you know, that wasn't better from my cabinet launched. and that was my priority. again, that mr. fortune was at the head of a lot of the feel of the kids and all the services security services. but he's, he was in charge on a controlling all those investigations. there's been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then, both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean just of course i don't know any jason organic meetings, but i didn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them? who would have ordered these assassinations at what level?

as far as you know, at what level would these killings had been decided? what, getting the killing of people who are opponents of the rush and state like alexander living in co for instance, 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know, we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right. no, just kidding him. i was going on right now in my country. we can guess that that could be in the highest level. same as you said, just nation of their bodies in salt and other people would like living in london and other people. just of course, of course, it would be, would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over people who speak out against russia. isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition inside the country those days over completely right now,

of course its position is unsafe and the problem object situation last year, support and just support many activities put in that sentence for many years. and that's why i'm just position destroyed. but evidently in the upcoming future considerations will come and positions will grow up. because just of all developments taking place right now, i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling. and i think that this combination of those sectors would leap and then it would lead to that too strong opposition. moment and change in the future. do you think the west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition? figures? do you think they turned a blind eye to them, at least in the early days when they started and put in the regime? i thought this way that's completely disappointed and the reaction with the

reaction on the basement george ration upgrade here. but in terms of key didn't go those people, we can recall there was there was an action that the breach government that i remember just reactive quite strongly. and of course, just when missed the put in minister. so it was killed in the and the not far from crammed of just that action was not so so great. not so house. and at that time, just the london washington on the medicaid vehicles in europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting doesn't mean so was i would say. ready one of the most non leave the so rational position. let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think put in the future actions will be

affected or altered by western sanctions? you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him back and just those things since we show him courses as a reaction for invasion into grades, of course shocked him. and of course the sanctions that the sort of prevention was that the spanish month for the korean elect to support him. and i think that that's a sucking has a sucking effect for you and for other people around him. and of course, that would lead for, i would say, so great extent, devastating go financials, system and the economy or russia. and that will create some kind of the race and negative i did use for the re people of course me the last i realized these against we didn't, we didn't cleaning electric in their grades, but i think just even why,

why the larger part, the population will wake up and start asking questions, why it's happening, that they levy lots of walls and propaganda will not be able to provide appropriate answers to them, which will satisfy them and they will start blame, you know, we don't ever think what's happening. to what extent do you think western measures have hit the personal wealth of putins in a circle or a zone? well, for that matter, in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys yet, and the organized crime and corruption reporting project valued. the total holdings of putin and he's in a circle family, friends at nearly $24000000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think for me to put it on himself. it doesn't change. she's style of life was everything. but for people around him to enjoy life, just having everything,

just all those efforts inside the house on the outside for them, it's a problem that's not the case. and they completely are just the radio. they leave in the company, it's a different environment and they, and such as fights with this. and they expect that the west close size and come back and so no later than usual, but it doesn't seem like these. and that's why that's why they quite pissed me 6 and they have quite nice extensive. and then they would say, disappoint the grade right now. we're 3 months into the war. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it stood around on the borders posing threateningly, but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take a f. it failed to take hockey, which is only what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big

a humiliation has it been for russia? the performance of its armed forces so far. i think their propaganda managed with different ways and right now that people don't feel that fortune or it is not the case of it. but you're right, just that the sheet on the, on the bottle children from the origins of your grain, of course, creating some kind of music at you. and in fact, they know it cannot even just expand their complaints or to the new stadium for those of us. and then he has a regency with these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course, there is a and on bus that you one for $40.00. it is a much less than that. first of all, just people are people expected to miss the point to reach you. and that's why

that's already already this amusement. there exists for supplies, effective supply, so a grain, of course, creating a possibility for them to race the race. and i would say a prayer for decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by autumn they will be able to have this advantage and battlefield. and then this additional stuff changed quite to record you work tundra, put in as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him personally? i don't know what extent just so we can see they know him well, of course i met him just a few few times to leave a regular it just we discussed different aspects of foss. my trust him,

i trust to the great extent that he promised when i reach to be a prime minister q. so framing the stance you saw. so just so i put my conditions that make additions war that mr. put in the window for support. all the reforms by a shade and she implemented those promises just with the exceptions. he didn't support the reform of gas sector, which was that then also included a cargo phone gus from for, for, for different positions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this, you are in a straight to for, for beach supposed to cut government responsibility to some government activities in the quantum in social fear. you've said that the person you knew 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way mister cassiano

completely completely different than the whole the whole odyssey she has undertaken this contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russell was absolute integrated in the world economy. and then the world politics, we had an excellent relations with the european union when we launched those for fear. so we can make up, we had to lot of invite a lot of foreign capital to be in the west direct capital, direct the westerns and the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, other countries. we was just fossil civilized, more than that, but we haven't comes in hand but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he? why are you aware that this was the thought of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no might, it might,

it was not the case only in the last year and the end of 2003 when we started to press the businesses and he started as you said, appointing. and you people from a former k g, b for important positions. and that's the end there was already, i was the radio with disagree with with him. and we was absolutely different in different positions on the policy on the ukraine, on deal that was on the gus from on the state different ball. and we had the ready and press on businesses. i would remind you of them that time just the rest on the same color. kosky was the radium sale, and that was also i was a public use agreement with you. that's what and that's time. and they had 2003 these process as you said, just of change, you can use the stuff the year. let me take you even further back. because when put in arrived in moscow i it was a 996. what are you not suspicious about an unknown k g,

b colonel on the form a deputy mayor of sim petersburg. suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that was not suspicion either. i will tell you frankly just which and which in being here for my case should be agent. i believe the completed development for new development for the gothic democrats, russia, and the supporting just market economy, all those reforms. and i believe that that's why i agree with you and i, i definitely also the case that mr. brandon, i also believe that will continue, continue to shoot them across russia. potent made his reputation. whatever reputation was in the 90s in saint petersburg, which by then was

a byword for corruption, wasn't an organized crime. a murder was known as banded city in russia. not a single business from the st kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside matthew control. but putin effectively ran the city's financial system that was quite a tight throat to walk, wasn't it? and it was not, not, as you should have just described the, from the information we all have today. you were making such a description right? no, but on that time, no, we didn't. we russel's are leaving there with didn't believe the old awesome signals are in your teeth on the, on the a couple of journalism that, but that was not the case. and they wouldn't say that. you said that mr. cassie on a bit in saint petersburg, the deputy prosecutor general said in a 994 interview that i did with him. that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs. the police counter intelligence,

the courts. suddenly the crime rate rose very sharp. he he said, and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general. valerie both shook off said it in 1994 of them if you're dead and i think that i'm just people in law school in the government do pay attention to this or just they didn't take us as important information. maybe it was the judges. i don't know, i was not responsible for that, just judging those reports. so for debbie to general general prosecutor of son because whatever never got this name and i said and that mr. against believe that to put in with math. and he a good, i would say in the success of a continuation of those changes, missed it. and when, when the dissertation comes to me came to me whether i would die by that time i was

already in the 8899. that was minister of finance and the women this is asian came to me where they will be working with william. i said yes. subject that will support my initiatives. and he personally instrumental responses. you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin pushed through, but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchy is that rub to russia blind, didn't the, thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? it's not a definition of what they're just described, that it was, and i can admit that it was unfair privatization, but not on this. i should colors you have just use it was, it was legal, but not fair. it was, i was a political mistake, but mr. garrison,

as i understand that the reasons for losing that time. yes, that was unfair. and i wanted to change the situation i wanted just to impose additional i would say that sation for those regards for those people who appear to be there in the us with as a result of these privatization. but mr. wouldn't allow me to pursue these business subjects you wanted to, you wanted to get all those kind of got us on the hook and what he the, and he's still have these hoops on all those well to people how vulnerable is perusing now to the people who he works with inside his, in a circle who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if not, someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as ruthless as he is. is that the case?

there is no one who is, who is strong enough, who supported by others who is capable to run the country. mister william, just deliberately just create such a situation that they will not be any feasible placement for him. and the propaganda explained to russian people as the case only fortune. and that's why just half a population off in the questions just who is if not point, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they're forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, richard, dear love the former head of britain's foreign intelligence service, said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that, but my feeling also such that mr. could leave could leave just

next year and coming. awesome. i think some guy in the morning what starts appear, and i think most of the stuff is the same how to do pup. but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing. it's not based on any specific information. that's my feeling. it goes, i know some of people who are still around with me and i know a little luck involved, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my prediction, that the situation is develop a negative a negative manner. med that negative directions and food you thinks how to, to get out of this. there is no scenario. how good and the walks and how good and this is it. as i said, they bore shots as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking, just trying to build up a scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have to waste took ambiguous edition before february 24th. or just to move around the thoughts just

some bull lake north korea, but nothing done in what i do these directions. that's where people simply waiting what's going on. what's happening in the bottles, you'll bessler, i'm saying just that the, the front line with the great this and the water bottles fuel to success. that is a crucial point for, for future of russia future for your grand anger is in change. and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield, not in negotiations. exactly. but capitalism is not prepared for any negotiations. the ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all excluded. and they are not ready to give any return or concessions mister potent doesn't. doesn't accept a defeat. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting. and that's why she will be better. just get out of the position

rather than just to be defeated and be a leader that's for him. that's the most sensitive the most crucial point. me how cassiano if it's been good tabby on conflicts and thank you very much for your time . thank you very much. it was great ah, ah, ah, with

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