effects of climate change or station in the rain forest in carbon dioxide emissions have risen again. young people over the world are committed to climate protection. what impact will because change doesn't happen on its own. make up your room minded. w. need for mines. little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power of my guest this week, former prime minister because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life, after opposition. politicians, barish?

yeah, i'm tough was killed in 2015 and he still does everyone in the rush, a normal person, but how secure is putin himself? what about the rumors of ill health? how does he think this war in ukraine can n, and why all those years ago did russian president boris yeltsin, groom and unknown k, g, b colonel as his successor? all that and more on conflict. so for me car cassiano, welcome to complex zone. hello tribute to be review. you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in, providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you? oh, it's difficult to difficult them,

although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. i just always was under pressure, but these i would say risk to be a p b in jail in the sentence. of course, i decided not to keep not to think this risk and i will out the russia, are you scared of the my put in i'm afraid of all the situation for all the russians. for myself and my family. of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want my raises my political activities to be in jail. unfortunately, i already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law that it's already just a legal and your law and just watching them kids seem just punishing people for the criticism of that is ivan opposition? figure how carefully do you have to calculate what you say and do,

given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i'm really speaking joseph, but this style which i used to have just but always was not ready to go all bleeding. but of course i'm making judgments and giving judgment, the will events and miss miss support. and his team though, but of course i'm free to book. but after your fellow opposition leader barry's new, i'm tough was shot in 2015. you said you fed for your life. do you still feel for your life? every one and the rest should be scared and the fear just life and me to normal us. of course, of course, right now in russia, that is the difficult sedation people's case about themselves to

opposition fingers were apparently assassinated in 2003, while you were russians. prime minister said you should cough who set up the liberal russia movement and the journalists, your sugar cheese and who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might've organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from today's point of view. it seems to be like it was at that time. we had no information, i have no feeling that would be the last from today's prospect from today's i mean this regime is doing it is absolutely clear that could be the case. but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place? no. not, of course,

of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them as prime minister? there was, there wasn't instigation, open open by just searching or particular office by the police and it was done, but unfortunately nothing could just froze. what was, what was unfortunate, but did you suspect as head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the upon the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they will state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i don't believe that was false and i was pre approved by them completely. it was involved in the uniforms and we should we successfully be them. that's of course i and your all those problems to be true happens at that time. but

i was completely occupied with the situation. but the reforms with the economy with the social sphere, you know, that wasn't from my cabinet launched, and that was my priority. again, that mr. fortune was at the head of a lot of the feel of the kids and all the services that security services. but he's, he was in charge on a controlling all those investigations. there been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then, both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean, just of course i don't know any authorization organic meetings, but that doesn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them? who would have ordered these assassinations at what level?

as far as you know, at what level would these killings have been decided? what, getting the killings of people who are opponents of the russian state like alexander living in co for instance 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know, we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right. no, just kidding in mind. what's going on right now in my country? we can guess that that could be in that highest level. same as you said, just nation of them about his name. so, and other people would like live in london and other people just of course, of course, it would be, would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over, people who speak out against russia. isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition? inside the country, those days over completely right now of course its position is

unsafe and the problem object situation last year, support and just support many activities put in that sentence for many years. and that's why i'm just position destroyed. but evidently in the upcoming future, their considerations will come and positions will grow up. because just of all developments taking place right now, i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling. and i think that this combination of those sectors would leap. and then it would lead to that too strong opposition. moment and change in the future. do you think the west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition? figures? do you think they turned a blind eye to them? at least in the early days when they started and put in the regime, i thought this way that completely disappointed and the reaction,

whistler excellent on the ways. and george and like facing grey me. but in terms of getting go, those people we can recall there was there was an action that then the government that i remember just reactive quite strongly. and of course, just when missed the put in minister. so it was killed in the and the not far from crammed of just they action was not so so great. not so house. and that time just be the london washington on the medicaid and the europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting, does that mean? so was i would say one of the most known leave this a rational position. let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think put in the future actions will be

affected or altered by western sanctions? you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him. this package is the sanctions which will impulse as, as a reaction for invasion. and of course shocked him. and of course the sanctions that the sort of prevention was that the spanish month for the korean elect to support him. and i think that that's a suck him has a sucking effect for you and for other people around him. and of course, that would lead for, i would say, so great extent, devastating, go financials, them and the economy or russia. and that will create some kind of the race and negative or just use for other people. of course me the glass i realized these against we didn't, we didn't like to begin their grades, but i think just even why, why the larger part,

the population where they will wake up and start asking questions, why it's happening. that they leave lots of walls and propaganda will not be able to provide appropriate answers to them, which will satisfy them and they will start blame. you can, we can ever think what's happening to what extent do you think western measures have hit the. 2 personal wealth of putins in a go or is own wealth for that matter in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys yet, and the organized crime and corruption reporting project valued the total holdings of putin. and he's in a circle, family, friends at nearly $24000000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think mister goswick himself, it doesn't change. she's style of life. you can never think. but for people around him to enjoy life, just having everything,

just all those essence inside the rush on the outside for them, it's a problem that's not the case. and that they completely just the radio, the leaf in the company, it's a different environment and that's and they, and such as fight with this. and they expect that the west would close size and come back. so no way to be them as usual, but it doesn't seem like this. and that's why that's why they quite pissed the mystics that they have quite nice sentiment and they would say, disappoint greatly right now. we're 3 months into the wall. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it stood around on the borders posing threateningly. but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take a f. it failed to take hockey, which is only what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big a humiliation has it been for russia, the performance of its armed forces so far?

i think the propaganda managed to choke a different way and right now that people don't feel that fortune already defeated . it's not the case absolute, but you're right just that the sheet on the, on the bible, children from the origins of your grain, of course, creating some kind of business, the quote that you. and in fact, they know it can even just expand their complaints or to the administration for those of us. and then he has a regency with these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course there is a and on bus that is a 2 month forward. but it is a much less than that. first of all, just people are people expected to go to mr. william to reach you. and that's why

that's already already the same as me. there exists for supplies, effective supply. so a grain, of course, creating a possibility for them to race the race. and i would say a prayer for decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by autumn they will be able to have this advantage and battlefield. and then this vision will start change quite to record you worked under putin as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him personally? i don't know what extent just so we can see that i know him well, of course i met him just a few few times to leave a regular it just we discussed to front this picture over to foss. my just him

i trust. so it was a great extent that he promised when i agreed to be a prime minister himself framing you saw. so just my conditions that make additions was that mister put in the support older reforms by kevin when they say that them, she implemented those promises just with the exceptions. he didn't support the reform of gas sector, which was also cut off from for, for, for different institutions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this you straight to for, for beach supposed to cuts, government responsibilities, some belmont activities in the economy in social fear. you said that the person you knew 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way, mr. cassiano? completely different than the whole. the whole odyssey she has undertaken this

contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russell was absolute, integrated in the world economy. and then the world politics, we had an excellent relations with the european union when we launched those for fear. so we can make up, we had to lot of invite a lot of foreign capital to be in the west direct capital direct, the west ones, and the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, other countries. we was just fossil civilized, more than that, but we haven't comes in hand but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he? why are you aware that this was the thought of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no, my in my was not the case only in the last year. and then 2003 when we

just started to press the businesses and he started as you said, you're pointing and you people from a former k g, b for important positions. and that, that was already, i was ready with disagree with. and the we was absolutely no different in different positions on the for, to see on the crane on the bill or was on the bus from on the straight different ball. and we had to read it and rational businesses. i would remind you that that time just that rational mucous and clinical skills radians out. and that was also our public disagreement with, you know, that's what and that time. and then 2003 these process. as you said, just of change, you can use to put young stuff up here. let me take you even further back. because when put in arrived in moscow, i think it was a 996. what you're not suspicious about an unknown k g,

b colonel and the former deputy mayor of st. petersburg suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that was not suspicious, but i will tell you frankly, just so if we can, which in your former case should be agent a company can do all for new development for building up a democrat to crush and the supporting just market economy, all those reforms and the i believe, and that's why i agree with you. and i are definitely also the case that mr. yet some of that. but i'm also believed this way that supports would continue, continue to the macro different folks on russia. putin made his reputation whatever his reputation was in the 90s in st. petersburg, which by then was

a byword for corruption, wasn't an organized crime. a murder was known as bounded city in russia. not a single business from the st. kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside matthew control, but putin effectively ran the city's financial system. that was quite a tight rope to walk, wasn't it? and it was not, not as you have just described in the, from the information we all have today. you were making such a description, right? no, but on that time and we didn't. so we russel's are living there with didn't believe the old awesome signals are in your teeth on the, on those couple of journalism that time. but that was not the case, and they wouldn't say that you said that mr. cassie, on a bit in saint petersburg, the deputy prosecutor general said in a 994 interview that i did with him. that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs. the police counterintelligence the courts. suddenly the crime rate

rose very sharp, he said, and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general valeri both shook off said it in 1994 of them. if you're dead, then i think that i'm just people in law school in the government do, benson to these or just they didn't thank us as important information. maybe it was the judge of i don't know, i was not responsible for that. just judging those report. so for debbie to general general prosecutor of son because whatever with this name and i said, and that missed against believe that put him in with math. and he a good i would say in the successor of continuation of those changes, missed to get some stuff. and when, when the, this edition comes to me, came to me whether i would die with them. i was already in the 88 and i,

and i was minister of finance. and the women, this is asian, came to me where they will be working with william. i said yes. subject that fulton will support my initiatives. and he personally instrumental responses. you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin pushed through, but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchy. is that rub to russia blind? didn't he? thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? it is not a definition with joseph stripe that it was, and i can admit that it was unfair privatization, but not in this. i should colors you have just use it was it was a legal but not fair. it was. i was a political mistake. but mister garrison,

as i understand, had the reasons for losing that time. yes, that was unfair. and they wanted to change the situation once and just to impose a session for those regards, for those people who appear to be there and there's with as a result of these privatization. but mr. watson's allow me to pursue this business subject you wanted to, you wanted to get all those hadn't got us on the hook and what he the, and he's still have these hoops on all those. well, some people how vulnerable is perusing now to the people who he works with inside his in a circle who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if that someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as ruthless as he is. is that the case?

there is no one who is, who is strong enough, who's supported by others who's capable to run becomes mr. william, just deliberately just grades of such a situation that they will not be any feasible placement for him. and the propaganda explains to rational people as the case only fortune. and that's why i just have a population asking the question just who is if not pointer, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, richard, dear love the former head of britons, foreign intelligence service, said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that, but my feeling also such that i could leave could leave just

next year and coming. awesome. i think some guy in the morning what starts at tier, and i think most of the stuff is the same how to do pup. but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing. it's not based on any specific information. that's my feeling. it goes, i know some of people who are still around with me and i know a little luck involved, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my prediction, that the situation is develop a negative negative manner. madman, negative directions and food. you thinks how to, to get out of this, there is no scenario how good and, and how good, and this is it, as i said, they bore shots as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking just trying to build up a scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have to waste to come back dissertation before february 24th or just to move around the tall. what's just

sample like north korea, but nothing done in what i do these directions. that's where people simply waiting what's going on? what's happening in the bottles you? that's why i'm saying just that the, the front line with the bread, they said the water bottles, fuel to success. that is a crucial point for, for future of russia future for your grand anger is in change. and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield, not in negotiations. exactly. but capitalism is not prepared for any negotiations. the ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all excluded. and they are not ready to give any to return or concessions. mister potent doesn't, doesn't accept a defeat. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting and that's why she will be better. just get out of the position

rather than just to be defeated and be a leader that's for him. that's the most sensitive the most crucial point. me how cassiano it's been good tabby on conflicts and thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. it was great. ah. ah ah! with

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