oh, what is left of his vision? a gandhi's legacy. in 30 minutes on the w, these places in europe or smashing the records, stepped into a bold adventure. it's the treasure map for modern globetrotters, discover some of record breaking sites on google maps to. and now also in book form little is known about the inner workings of the kremlin, especially with vladimir putin in power. but my guest this week form of prime minister because cassiano worked on the putin in the early 2 thousands and he knows what happens behind the closed doors of the russian government. he says he feared for his own life, after opposition, politicians,

virus m tough was killed in 2015 and he still does everyone in the rush or should be scared, a normal person. but how secure is putin himself? what about the rumors of ill health? how does he think this war in ukraine can n, and why all those years ago did russian president boris yeltsin, groom and unknown k g, b colonel as his successor? all that and more on conflict. for me car cassiano, welcome to complex zone. hello trip. it will be review, you said recently you left russia earlier this year after a new law was brought in providing for 15 year prison terms for calling the war a war or an invasion. how difficult was that decision for you?

it's difficult to difficult them, although just i'm in the position for more than 18 years. just always was under pressure, but these i would say risk to be to be in jail in the sentence. of course, i decided not to keep not to think this 3 is, can i move out the russia? are you scared of vladimir putin? i'm afraid of all the situation for all the russians. for myself and my family. of course, i don't want to be in jail. i don't want my raises my political activities to be in jail. unfortunately, i already get 3 of my political collaborators already in jail, just on the investigation on this new law that is already just applicable and your law and just watching them see him just by dancing pupil for the criticism of him as an opposition figure how carefully do you have to calculate what you say and do,

given the violent way in which so many ration opposition figures have been put out of action. right now i am outside and i'm really speaking joseph with this style which i used to have just but always was not ready to go over the blading baptize. of course i'm making judgments and giving judgment, the will events. and mrs. mr. put in that case to him do. but of course i'm free to book. but after your opposition leader barry snack tough was shot in 2015. you said you fed for your life. do you still feel for your life? everyone in the rest should be scared and the future life and me to normal us. of course, of course, right now, in russia, that is the difficult sedation of people's care about themselves. to

opposition figures were apparently assassinated in 2003 while you were russians. prime minister said you should cough who set up the liberal russian movement and the journalists, you are a sugar chicken who died suddenly of a mysterious illness. both had been investigating the 999 apartment bombings after rumors that the state might have organized them to create a protests pretext for cracking down on chechnya. were these state assassinations? i don't know right now from the base point of view. it seems to be like it was at that time. we had no information, i have no feeling that would be involved from today's prospect from today's i mean this regime is doing this absolutely clear that could be the case. but you are prime minister the time. did you know that these assassinations were going to take place? no, not, of course,

of course not. and did you inquire one to inquire into them as prime minister? there was, there wasn't instigation, open open by just searching or particular office by the police and it was done, but unfortunately nothing could just froze. what was, what was unfortunate that time, but did you suspect the head of the government at the time that your own state was actually killing these people was actually responsible for killing these people? no, i didn't. i didn't have that. she didn't get that time frame to and as for the upon the apartment bombings themselves, what do you believe they were state sponsored? at that time, i didn't believe i didn't believe that was false and i was preapproved by them completely. it was involved in the uniforms and we should be successfully them. that's of course i knew all those problems which will happen. but

i was completely occupied with this situation. but the reforms with the economy with the social sphere. no, that wasn't my cabinet launched and that was my priority again. mister, poor jim was as i had a lot of fill up the kids and all the services that security services. but he's, he was in charge on a controlling all those investigations that have been plenty of assassinations attributed to the russian state since then, both in russia itself and abroad. do you know how these hits authorized? i don't know what you mean just of course i don't know any authorization of any kidding but doesn't get what you exactly mean. well, who would have ordered them?

who would have ordered these assassinations at what level? as far as you know, at what level would these killings have been decided? what, getting the killing of people who are opponents of the rush and state like alexander living in co for instance, 2006 for my f. s. b officer killed in london. i don't know, we can guess as almost a normal people just so we can guess. right. no, just kidding in mind. what's going on right now in my country? we can guess that that could be in the highest level. the same as you said, just nation of them, they're both of them. so and other people would like living in london and other people just of course, of course, it would be, would be decided on the highest level while this threat hangs over, people who speak out against russia. isn't it true to say there will be no organized opposition? inside the country, those days over completely right now of course its position is

unsafe and the problem object situation last year, support and just support maniac to be put in jail sentence for many years. and that's why i'm just there position destroyed. but evidently in the upcoming future, their considerations will come and positions will grow up because of all developments taking place right now. i mean, well, i mean sanctions and just internal boiling and i think that this combination of those sectors would leave. and then it would lead to that too strong opposition moment and that it didn't change in the future. do you think the west should have raised more objections to the killings of opposition? figures? do you think they turned a blind eye to them? at least in the early days when they started and put in the regime, i thought this way that completely disappointed and the reaction,

whistler excellent on the ways and george recreation upgrade me. but in terms of killing go, those people we can recall there was there was an action that then the government that i remember just reactive quite strongly. and of course just went to put in minister. so was killed in the and the not far from primitive just they action was not so so great. not so house. and at that time just be that the london, the washington on the medicaid and the europe just asking just for, for stronger reactions for this, for this getting, does that mean? so was i would say one of the most known leave this a rational position. let's talk if we may, about the western response to russia's invasion of ukraine and the sanctions that you mentioned. to what extent do you think put in the future actions will be

affected or altered by western sanctions? you said recently that he may have been surprised by the severity of those measures taken against him. this package is the sanctions visual impulses as a reaction for invasion. and of course shocked him. and of course the sanctions that the thought of prevention was that the spanish month for the korean elect to support him. and i think that that's a suck him has a sucking effect for you and for other people around him. and of course, that would lead for, i would say, so great extent, devastating go financials and the economy o russia. and that will create some kind of the race and negative, or just use for, or the re people of course, middle class i realize these and they against, we didn't, we didn't criminal activity in their grades. but i think just even why,

why the larger part, the population, where they will wake up and start asking questions. why happening? they louis watson was and the propaganda will not be able to provide the appropriate answers to them, which will set aside them and they will start blame. you can, we can ever think what's happening to what extent do you think western measures have hit the personal wealth of putins in a goal or is own wealth for that matter in 2017 an investigative report by nova guys yet, and the organized crime and corruption reporting project valued, the total holdings of putin, and he's in a circle family, friends at nearly $24000000000.00. does that some seem likely too high or too low to you? i think mister putting himself, it doesn't change. she's style of life. what you can never think, but for people around him who enjoy life,

just having everything just all those essence inside the house, on the outside for them, it's a problem that's not the case. and that they completely just the radio, the leaf in the company. it's a different environment and they, and such as fight with this, and they expect that the west will close the size and come back. so no way to, to be them. but it doesn't seem like this. and that's why that's why they are quite big. mystic said they have quite nice sentiment and they would say, disappoint greatly right now. we're 3 months into the war. it's no secret that the russian army has performed poorly in ukraine for months. it stood around on the borders posing threateningly, but the reality when it invaded was very different. it failed to take a f. it failed to take hockey, which is on the what 25 kilometers from the russian border. how big

a humiliation has it been for russia, the performance of its armed forces so far? i think their propaganda managed to choke a different way. and i know that people don't feel that fortune or it is not the case of it. but you're right just that the sheet on the, on the bible, children from the origins of your grain, of course, creating some kind of basic needs to quote that you. and in fact, they know it cannot even just expand. they occupied territory up to the administration for those of us. and then he has a regency when these minimum goal is not achieved. but of course there is a and on bus that you one for which bus it is much less than that. first of all, just people are people expected to miss the point to reach you. and that's why this

already already the same as me. it exists for supplies effective supply. so a grain, of course, creating a possibility for them to race the race. and i would say a prayer for decisive advantage very soon. and i hope by awesome, they will be able to have this advantage and battlefield. and then this vision will start change quite to record you work. tundra 13 as prime minister from 2000 to 2004. how well did you get to know him personally? i don't know to what extent just so we can see they know him well of course i met him just a few few times to leave a regular it just we discussed different aspects or 3rd or 4th my just him

i trust to the grid extender that he promised when i agreed to be a prim units that you just prime minister, you saw. so just so put my conditions that make a nuisance war that mr. put in. that would of support all the reforms by coming from the shade. and then she implemented those promise, just that with the exceptions you didn't support the reform of gas sector. beach was that then also included i would say cargo for gas from, for, for, for different institutions for different companies. and he didn't allow me to this you there in a straight to for, for beach supposed to cut government responsibilities and government activities in the corner in social fear. you've said that the put a new new 20 years ago was a very different person from the one you see today. different in what way mister cassiano completely completely different than the whole the whole odyssey she has

undertaken this contrary to all my expectations and my thought and just when we walked together and that time russia was absolute integrated in the world economy. and then the world politics, we had excellent relations with the european union when we launched those for fear. so we got we had to lot of invite a lot of foreign capital to be in the west direct direct from westerns in the russian economy. we had good relations with that of states with canada, with japan, other countries. we was just part of civilized, more than that. but we haven't comes in hand but hand in hand with those reforms. he was bringing in increasing numbers of security personnel into key positions. wasn't he, why are you aware that this was the thought of moving towards a police state, which is what we're seeing at the moment? no might, it might sound,

it was not the case only in the last year. and then those 2003. when we started to press the businesses and he started, as you said, pointing, and you people from, from a k g, b for important positions. and that's the end. there was already, i was right there with disagreement with you. and we was absolutely different in different positions on the policy, on the crane on deal that was on the bus from on the state, different forms. and we had the ready and press on businesses. i would remind them that i'm just the press on the same color. kosky was the radians and that was also i was a public disagreement with you. that's what and that's time. and they had 2003 these process. as you said, just of change, you can use the stuff that year. let me take you even further back. because when put in arrived in moscow i it was

a 996. what are you not suspicious about than unknown k g because on the former deputy mayor of some petersburg suddenly being groomed for the highest office in the country. did you? did you find out the reason for that was not suspicion either. i will tell you frankly just that which in which in being here for my medicaid should be agents, i believe the company to do open for new developments or do they got democrats, russia, and the supporting just market the economy, all those reforms. and i believe that that's why i agree with you. and i, i definitely also the case that missed some of that, but i'm also believe it's weight that's put in. we'll continue, continue to shoot. the mccracken, fox and russia potent made his reputation. whatever reputation was in the 90s in saint petersburg, which by then was a byword for corruption,

wasn't that organized crime. a murder was known as bandits city in russia, not a single business from the st kiosks. up to the largest companies operated outside mafia control, but putin effectively ran the cities financial system that was quite a tight rope to walk, wasn't it? and it was not, not, as you should have just described the, from the information we all have today. you were making such a description right? no, but on that i'm a we didn't we, russel's or living there with didn't believe to that old or some signals are in your teeth on the, on the couple of jungle isn't that, but that was not the case. and they wouldn't say that you said that mr. cassie on a been in st. petersburg. the deputy prosecutor general said in a 994 interview that i did with him. that organized crime was infiltrating all the judicial organs, the police counterintelligence,

the courts. suddenly the crime rate rose very sharp, he he said, and we weren't ready for it. in short, crime was out of control. that was the deputy prosecutor general. valerie both shook off, said it in 1994 of them if you're dead and i think that i'm just people in law school in the government do pay attention to this or just they didn't think of as important information. maybe it was the judge if i don't know. i was not responsible for that, just judging those report. so for debbie to general, general prosecutor offs on because whatever with this name and i said, and that missed against believe their to put him in with math. and he, a good, i would say in the success of a continuation of those changes, missed to get some stuff. and when, when the, this edition comes to me, came to me whether i would go by that time i was already in the $8899.00 that was

minister of finance and the women this is asian came to me where they will be working with william i said yes, subject that put him with support my initiatives. and he personally in dement of responses, you talked about all the reforms that yeltsin pushed through. but at the same time, he held the door open for the grotesque oligarchy. is that rub to russia blind? didn't he, thanks to him. at one point, nearly half russia's wealth was controlled by just 7 business men. that really is the definition of madness, isn't it? it's not a definition with justice drive that it was, and i can admit that it was unfair privatization, but not in this. i should colors you have just use it was it was legal, but not fair. it was. i was a political mistake. but mister garrison,

as i understand, had the reasons for losing that time. yes, that was unfair and they wanted to change the situation. i wanted just to impose additional, i would say that session for those on regards for those people who appear to be there in the us with as a result of these privatization. but mr. perkins allow me to pursue this business subject. you want to turn, you wanted to get all those kind of got us on the hook and what he and he's still have these hoops on all those well to people. how vulnerable is person now to the people who he works with inside his in a circle? who's waiting in the wings in politics i expected was the same and your government, someone is always waiting in the wings. and if not, someone has been picked by putin, they're likely to be just as ruthless as he is. is that the case?

there is no one who is who is strong enough, who supported by others who is capable to run the country. mister william, just deliberately just create such a situation that they will not be any feasible replacement for him. and the propaganda explained to rational people as the case only fortune. and that's why i just have a population off in the question just who is, if not point to, that's why whether they liked him or not. but they, they, they forced to support him. how much credence do you give to the reports of putins, ill health? in the last few days, richard dale of the former head of britain's foreign intelligence service, said he thought putin would be gone by next year because of health issues. do you have any reliable information to support that? i don't have any, any medical information on that, but my feeling also such that could leave could leave for just

next year and coming. awesome. i think some guy in the morning what starts at tier, and i think most of this stuff is the same how to do pup. but it's, it's my prediction that's nothing that it's not based on any specific information. that's my feeling. it goes, i know some of people who are still around with me and i know took a little luck of all, but i knew quite well, i guess that's why my feeling is my prediction, that the situation is develop a negative negative man. med that negative directions and food you think how to, to get out of this. there is no scenario. how good and the walk and how good and this is it, as i said, they both shots as a result of these imposing sanctions. and that's why just they thinking just trying to build a scenario right now. no one is doing nothing just because we have to waste to come back the station before february 24th or just to move

a rush at all. it's just a sample like north korea, but nothing done in what i do these directions. that's when people simply waiting what's going on, what's happening in the bottles you. that's why i'm saying just that the, the front line with the great this and the water bottles fuel to success. that is a crucial point for, for future of russia future for grants. anger is in change and that's where you think the war will be decided on the battlefield. not in negotiations. exactly. but capitalism is not prepared for any negotiations. the ukrainians are not prepared to surrender at all. i leave it and they are not ready to give any return or concessions mister potent doesn't. doesn't accept a defeat. that's why that's why he would continue, continue fighting and that's why she will be better. just get out from the position

rather than just to be defeated and be a leader that's for him. that's the most sensitive the most crucial point. me how cassiano it's been good to have young conflicts and thank you very much for your time. thank you very much. it was great ah ah ah, with

india ah, brimming with ambition and inequality. 75 years ago mahatma gandhi peacefully led the country to independence.

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