the mediterranean lou, it's waters connect people of many cultures. seen almost rock and to far do korea drift along with exploring modern lifestyles and mediterranean where it has a history left its traces with regal hearing their dreams. and to me, during this week, d, w rushes attack on ukraine has ended the lives of people throughout the region, driving a wedge between neighbors, friends, families. as the war reached, the 6 months bark ukrainians commemorated their national holiday, fear, defiance and sorrow over the absence of those who have departed in neighboring

russia, repression has intensified, can resistance survive. and what about in bella? rose proteins trusted ally, some would save back. so on to the point where, asking that tragic triangle is put in destroying ukraine bells and russia with welcome to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. a katerina shoreline is a political scientist and associate professor at the moscow school for the social and economic sciences, left russia in april to take up the fellowship at the robert bush, stiff dog here in germany. and it's a pleasure to welcome olga concierge that she is from ukraine. she's currently journalist in residence at the berlin social sciences center w. c. b. she's been overseeing reporting for online news portal. 2014 from

a syringe. and also with us is bella russian freelance journalist and author, marina clay. she works with the german marshall fund and has written extensively about for homeland all the in his speech on ukraine's independence day. president soleski said ukraine is quote, a nation reborn. would you say that's true? and if so, what is new about ukraine since the war? yes, thank you for this question, because now i feel that we are united more than ever. and i can say that i didn't feel it before because we can't manage troubles money like 5 the inside our country and many different position questions. but now i feel that we are united because we have a really big strength in front of us. and i believe that the now we will have more

time for building some new version of your grant, some better version. because now we see that we deserve. and we can resist, even if they have a lack of dime, a lack of resources, even if they have some problems that like not to depend on us. but still, we have strong carly's and we have many opportunities to reach new goals. and i guess after this war, and i believe that it will be a victory of ukraine, and that will reach our goal of free grain and will liberate all the territories that now occupied by russia. so i guess that after that we will have a new, better ukraine that will show all the world that were managed and even if you have some obstacles you can overcome it. so yeah, i hope we'll have a great example of some stronger mccrass's because before people like usually

called us like young democracy and so on. but yeah, now i just had a convent to that point in a moment. it katerina as ukraine was commemorating it's independence day, russian police were arresting the one of the most vocal critics who still is in russian name the you have any hoods monday, one of the last, i think a position politicians remaining up lodge. exactly. and he was formerly mayor of catherine bourg. he said, as he was led away, i'm quoting, we know all there is to know about our country. this meaning his arrest is nothing new. how much do average russian citizens really know about the war itself? and also about the level of repression in the country. since the beginning of the invasion about 7000 online resources were blocked by the russian authorities,

by the particular office or our school now or. and this is just online, the most popular radio station in moscow echo of moscow was closed in the 1st days of march. and the only oppositional tv channel are to the rain stopped operating about the same time. so we should not underestimate the degree of control over the our information. here are television, all though declining in popularity and there's is, there has been an especially charm decline during the last 6 months. is still number one, source of information for an average citizen, especially want to be more specific for citizens are aged above 50, which is or rather older than 55, which is also coincidently. the main group of support for the things that are happening for any actions of the or to so there's this direct correlation between media consumption and bob ethical position. political views and announcements are

on the internet. in youtube, when telegram there certainly are accessed to alternative points of view taylor, including of course, your own youtube channel. you have over a 1000000 viewers as i understand subscribers. yes. so this may be the sign or not, not so much of my own progress and information source, but of the hunger for any sort of alternative alternative information. yes, the main beneficiary is has been youtube and tell them it's interesting that russian authorities general says they are with their bookings. i am closing down of media outlets. i yet weary of a blocking you tube, a, which is immensely popular among among the people also for the non political content. so the answer to your question as to any question about russia is both yes and no. there's a scar city information available to those who would not seek it intentionally. so

if they just turn on t v or if they are open now their browser page and then the most popular 1st these will be under them. they will not see any other point of view rather than the official one. but if they choose to dive a little deeper them are, there are certainly are saucers that can afford, do they have to use the p n as in billions. the vpn consumption has increased 100 percent in since since february. so now it's, it's quite a household too. but are the people that the authorities can trace v p and use vpn numbers. of course, are the numbers that people use to try to access the internet from the not open sources beyond their own countries. but i'm told that is traceable. i think wish and scare people over much with whatever it is may or may not deal so far. the use

of the p on is not criminalized in russia, so people are using it. it's funny that's here in germany, i had to install the p. m. that pretends that i'm accessing internet from russia because i need for my professional work, i need access to official sites like sites of the russian ministries. and these are blocks from here, one of the many paradoxes of this war. marina. let's let me ask you about a paradox. in bella, ruth's belly written president lucas shanker. has of course, allowed his country's territory to be used by russia to stage it's war, including missing bases that have fired into ukraine. yet he congratulated ukraine on its independence day and said that he is convinced and again, i'm quoting, that today's contradictions will not destroy the centuries old foundation of good neighborly relations. is this pure cynicism on his part or does it indicate that there are limits to bela bruce's support for russia?

i guess it clearly indicates that there are limits to what you should take seriously. what's coming from the current. 5 bill or ocean, or from from, from the current bill or ocean and government. and the president. there was this congratulations. one of the, one of their wordings was that he wished the am a peaceful skies to the king a nation and the ukrainians, where they were were writing that are in the afternoon or the shillings or all the pregnancy is where than from the village in character and it's interesting that one of them, probably, for me personally, the amazing thing that this war very clearly revealed is that i'm probably coming from there from this and a posterior background being born and possibly biller also gotten grown up there. and we also tend to think that we know our neighbors that were basically all the

same, the russians, the ukrainians, the bill at oceans more or less the same nations, a part of it, nations. but basically, the last 30 years, every country had it, had lived their own life and developed in different directions and ukraine. the koreans has never experienced. they also retire n n a rule hand, the way a bill at oceans and russians it. they cannot grasp it. why, bill, at oceans and russians are not out there in the streets, protesting a fire when it's so, and i mean, when they know if they linda's yates, they simple eugene, you know, i mean, rationally the, know the cost of it that you will be in prison but because an in ukraine for the last 30 years, it was possible to go out and protest and then below. and we'll talk about the young garbage for example. it's also sometimes very terrifying to go out on st.

sent to protest and i saw it in 2014, so we're all saw. we came through this. so i guess we don't know exactly what you experienced like in russian. beller was. but we also believe that if it's like a large amount of people, it's like big crowd. you can't back every one to out to suck. yeah. that's right. and huge crowds, fancy, yes. all mom. and i mean, at this claim probably that of course they, the sufferings of bill at oceans and russians are, cannot in many remote way compared to what ukrainians are going to do with the bombings and shillings and people dying. but ah, it's on the situation where the protest is there, but it takes are the forms, it's in the underground as i don't know that that, that in the main south, out of minsk there will be an open window. and there they are. and some of ukraine will be blasting out, people showing the attitude, but in a very limited to what,

where possibilities that they have. and i want to come back to exactly that, but we have a short report and i'd like to take a closer look at life in all 3 countries. you can't crane russia and bella, bruce, sorrow, worry and fear co exist with a strange normality in all 3. as people go about their business. ah, everything seems normal here in the ukranian city of chroma tours. not far from the front line. we're so tired because of the war. meanwhile, a neighboring bella roost president lucas shenker was presenting himself as a caretaker. the opposition once powerful, languishes in exile or prison. no one dares rebel against the dictators unholy alliance with russian president vladimir putin who has a firm grip on his country. in moscow and st. your spirit,

everything seems normal. cafes and bars are full. only a courageous few, still dear, to openly criticize the war of aggression. meanwhile, in the siberian provinces where most soldiers are recruited families more and more and more fallen sons. but even in ukraine, critical voices are growing. protesters fear that as the war drags on democracy and the achievements of the orange revolution will fall by the wayside. can there be freedom for ukraine? only if there is also freedom for russia and bella bruce straight on to you. okay, it's a big one. yeah, i remember i like to ask, i said this. yeah, yes, it was her quite but you know, i guess. yeah, we're all in the same. i like informational space even if you now want to devise

yeah. our culture and to our common ecosystem. you and heritage, but anyway, like we like influence to each other. so any way we will need to get back to that dialogue, maybe after the war, maybe now where to emotional if and i like, i listen to like russian music, great many russian books, for example. yeah, i read the book that i guess that united this include a book about. yeah, that is about the global decline of violence. yes. yeah. but my sever, yes, the like for he thought there to, for like a lost like 70 years with these degrees is the off some while ends in the world and that know them the countries almost never go to war with shattered on february 24th, 2020 to hell my experience in this. yes. so and even like some great it is on my

end. they went wrong. so that is why i didn't like say like maybe a exactly what will happen next, but i guess that we all make something brilliant on our own. are like, wait for example, i see many russian people who now joined some special regimes of ukrainian army. i see like russian people who helped us here, like for example, on the train station just to translate something from german are to sense like some, i don't know, special letters to administration and so on. and they were very helpful. and all of that, i think that really matters. so i guess that maybe we all need to do something that we can do as a person independently. yeah. and then it will bring some results. let me just ask

you because i report ended up with protests in ukraine in south, and we talked about ukraine being reborn. you talked about ukrainian democracy. how stable and free is ukraine today, president zalinski has become a hero to millions of people around the world. and yet, there has been some criticism, particularly after he fired the head of the intelligence service and also the state prosecutor. some questions raised about democracy and it's viability in ukraine for the full democracy. it's very broad to like term. and to like even some big scientists they like to find about like, what does the democracy mean and now, but if you talk about your grant, it's a really nice that we have those changes of some a public a, some like really big decisions. it means that something works and also i can tell

you that people and you grant their so critical to the power and they are so light and sometimes angry with our official. so they are national just additional to go on to the streets and to protest. so believe me, if something will happen, they will stop that and ski. but i also could explain your that, for example, are you bringing constitution states that president of ukraine needed to bring this come on as the chief of an army, if something happened. so that is why it's also, he's like direct decision and he's a o needs to rule to contradict such a or time. so it's not like auto to reason. it's just a matter of time and it's just to declare, declared in our constitution. so she behavior like this because of her right,

catalina, how firm is put in a grip or, or report us the question. can there only be true freedom for ukraine if russia and bella roost are free? when could that day come? that's a good question. i $1000000.00 question i would say are so far are russian ruling a lead has demonstrated a certain degree of unity, the civic authorities, their financial authorities have demonstrated much higher competence than the military ones. it's a kind of a paradox, that's the power that be released so much on security services and on the military that has done so badly on security services that have have misinformed the president on such a grand way, while the much despised civic bureaucracy has continued to hold the country together to preserve the economy in the needs of the sanction storm asked. so this is, this is kind of kind of kind of ironic. but at this point,

we must say that our russian power machine is, i can say, comparatively stable, but it is kind of preventing the collapse. ah, so it is possible still for an average russian to leave as if nothing much has happened. you managed to leave the country many, many others have left as well. does this brain drain of critics oppositional voices? does it help or hurt the opposition? i certainly helps the regime of by living out the necessity of a real wides. full scale repressive campaign. it has been in the nature of our political regime to push the critics to leave rather than to prevent them from living in the soviets or our german manner. so after february

24th, it has accelerated, this exalt us has been tremendous. i have begun to realize it only i have a wife here myself. i've been much more fortunate than many others. i was not on the direct threat, so i came to basically to enjoy my fellowship. but many, many of my colleagues, my friends, are people who were teachers in the same universities that i taught in. they were obliged to leave because of direct danger. and this is an extremely sad thing for, for the country in general. we can imagine that it's better for the opposition, for the positional in mind, that rather to be at large down to being prison. but it's sad and tragic to realize how many people educated people creative people have chosen to leave the country rather than to remain. i can't say that it's in any way

brings closer the of the times of freedom, which you mention. and you know, where does the opposition movement stand in bella? russ. today we talked about, or it was mentioned, the massive protests in 2020, after alexander lucas jenko. i was accused of manipulating the election. has the opposition been snuffed out since then? it so it wouldn't be serious to talk about the opposition inside the country at this point of time. i mean what we've been observing in russia for the last half a year has been taking place in bella rose for, for 2 years now. since the end of the protests and they did this, this them the wave of repressions and rolled over the country. it has not stopped. it has never stopped. ah, as of yesterday, they have been 1300 political prisoners in bellows for, for,

for in terms of the of germany, it's 11500. so 11000 a political prisons and 833-3000 arrest that that would make almost 300000 in germany. 10 in the proportion times of numbers and 4500 people have been designated political prisoners by i'm in what out. so and russia is, let me remind you a much larger country than bellows. so yes, i meet so many, ah, bill, russian and ones here in, if you creating were to actually succeed in winning the conflict with russia. would that also have a follow on effect for lucas shackle? ah, definitely yes. that, that, that to use the famous, not all of them was of the bill at ocean and polish hero that those guys just for our freedom and yours. what ukrainians are. she roy can lead doing all this

for 6 months a half a year. is i mean, the extra face of the war because there was stuff that 8 years ago they are then their struggle is not only to, for the future of ukraine, but also bill, our house and i rush. let me ask all of you and i want to come back to our title, because our show is the clock is running. we asked tragic triangle whether putin is destroying all 3 of your countries. and one of the most potent weapons that's being used in this conflict is of course nationalism. we saw it in the murder, now of the daughter of the ultra nationalist russian ad doogie. darya davina was murdered. apparently targeted attack at him, a massive response by ultra nationalists in russia. would you say that this nationalism is poisoning the region and will go beyond the conflict itself?

briefly, olga, if we talk about arc ukrainian care, so it's just it's irony because we don't have like a much, a larger group of nationalists, maybe some organized people. but where, you know, like nationalists, but they didn't really even like the level that they needed for the parliament. so i guess if we need to be careful with this problem, not only like if you're talking about average in for service region on eastern europe, but you will also see that societies are polarized. there are many like people with this nationalists view, but not in that way as like crossing propaganda. put it like on the table when they talk about ukraine, because of in, in russia, ethnic nationalism also enjoys or is a marginal are support. so it's, it's an exotic imperial type of nationalism is more understandable, too broad the russian public. but this is also propagates by mostly by russian state to be once you turn it off or change the tenor of them. this will also change

ethnic nationalism. what you call old on nationalism is not popular in russia, and we have seen our various examples of that. i, if it's more, it would have enjoyed the renaissance in 2014, but this is not what happened. and i would say that and you serious reconciliation efforts or dialogue this tragic triangle as you put it could only be feasible. and when the war ended, i don't think it's possible for the 3 nations to see peacefully at the same table as where doing now before m. ukraine prevails. and that was of, can you imagine ukraine actually winning this or ah, in post modern times more and victory and defeats odd, definable in the, in very different ways. we have just mentioned that the war has been going on for

years. so 8 years, hans, how will we define the war? well, when did it start and when will it found them? best case scenario, the war and ukraine? it winds up. what does it mean getting big crimea stopping, garage and crime? yeah, well it's not a very best case there. ah, this is not achievable by military means. i'm afraid i'm going to have to cut off our discussion right. fair. i'm so grateful to all of you for being with us here today. and i'm very glad to have all of you tune again. see you soon. ah ah ah, with

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