i worst fears, realized they're all gone. how i witnesses experienced the terrible events and this, the world should not forget the long shuttle to 1972 living massacre? stuart september, 3rd on d. w. 9 o rushes attack on ukraine has ended the lives of people throughout the region, driving a wedge between neighbors, friends, families. as the war reached the 6 month bark, ukrainians commemorated their national holiday, fear. defiance and sorrow over the absence of those who have departed in neighboring russia repression has intensified, can resistance survive. and what about in bella? ruth proteins trusted ally, some would save back. so on to the point where, asking that tragic triangle is put in destroying ukraine,

bella wilson and russia with welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. a katerina schulman is a political scientist and associate professor at the moscow school for the social and economic sciences, left russia in april to take up the fellowship at the robert bush, stiff down here in germany. and it's a pleasure to welcome olga concierge that she is from ukraine. she's currently journalist in residence at the berlin social sciences center w. c. b. she's been overseeing reporting for the online news portal. 24 tv for me here in germany. and also with us is bella russian freelance journalist and author, marina clay. she works with the german marshall fund and has written extensively

home in his speech on ukraine's independence day. president soleski said ukraine is quote, a nation reborn. would you say that's true? and if so, what is new about ukraine since the war? yes, thank you for this question, because now i feel that way i united more than ever. and i can say that i didn't feel it before because we had to manage raw both menu like 5 the inside our country and many different position questions. but now i feel that we are united because we have a really big threat in front of us. and i believe that now we will have more time for building some new version of your grant, some better wagon. because now we, you that we deserve. and to we can resist, even if they have a lack of dime,

a lack of resources, even if they have some problems that like not to depend on us. but still, we have strong carly's and we have many opportunities to reach your goals. and i guess after this war and i believe that it will be a victory of your grade, and that will reach our goal off free ukraine and will liberate all the territories that now occupied by russia. so i guess that after that we will have a new, better ukraine that will show all the world that were managed and even if you have some obstacles you can overcome it. so yeah, i hope it will have a great example of a stronger, more critic because before people like usually call does like young democracy and so on. but yet now i guess for how to come back to that point in a moment it katerina as ukraine was commemorating it's independence day. russian

police were arresting the one of the most vocal critics who still is in russian name the yet. anyhow, it's monday, one of the last i think opposition politicians are meeting at large. exactly. and he was formerly mayor of you, catherine borg. he said, as he was led away, i'm quoting, we know all there is to know about our country. this meaning his arrest is nothing new. how much do average russian citizens really know about the war itself and also about the level of repression in the country. since the beginning of the invasion about 7000 online resources were blocked by the russian authorities by the particular office on missouri. and this is just online. the most popular radio station in moscow echo of moscow was closed in the 1st days of march . as the only oppositional tv channel are to the rain stopped operating about the

same time, so we should not underestimate the degree of control over the our information. here are television, all though declining in popularity and there's is, there has been an especially charm decline during the last 6 months. is teal number one source of information for an average citizen, especially want to be more specific for citizens aged above 50, which is or rather older than 55, which is also k. incidentally, the main group of support for the things that are happening for any actions of the or to so there's this direct correlation between media consumption and political position, political views and pronouncements on the internet. in your tip when telegram there certainly are accessed to alternative a points of view, including of course, your own youtube channel. you have over

a 1000000 viewers as i understand subscribers. yes, on this may be the sign or not, not so much of my own prowess as an information source, but of the hunger for any sort of uh, alternative alternative information. yes, the main beneficiary is, has been youtube and telegram. it's interesting that russian authorities generous as they are with their bookings. i'm closing down of media outlets. i yet are weary of a blocking you tube, a, which is immensely popular among among the people also for the non political content. so the answer to your question as to any question about russia is both yes and no. there's a scar city information available to those who would not seek it intentionally. so if they just turn on t v or if they are open now their browser page and then the most popular 1st these will be and then they will not see any other point of view rather than

official one. but if they choose to dive a little deeper them are, there are certainly are saucers that can afford, do they have to use the v p n isn't billions vpn consumption has increased 100 per cents in since since february. so now's, it's where the household to but are the, i've been told that the authorities can trace vpn, use v p. and numbers, of course, are the numbers that people use to try to access the internet from the national open sources beyond their own countries. but i'm told that is traceable. i think wish and scare people over much with thinking with the authorities may or may not do so far. the use of the p and is not criminalized in russia, so people are using it. it's funny that here in germany, i had to install the p. m. that pretends that i'm accessing internet from russia because i, for my professional work,

i need access to official sites like sites of the russian ministries. and these are looked from here. one of the many paradoxes of this war, marina, let's let me ask you about a paradox. in bella. ruth belly risten, president lucas jenko has of course, allowed his country's territory to be used by russia to stage its war, including missile bases that have fired into ukraine. yet he congratulated ukraine on its independence day and said that he is convinced and again, i'm quoting, that today's contradictions will not destroy the centuries old foundation of good neighborly relations. is this pure cynicism on his part or does it indicate that there are limits to bela bruce's support for russia? i guess it clearly indicates that there are limits to what you should take seriously. what's coming from the current bill or william, or from from, from the current bill of ocean and government and the president. there was this

congratulations. one of the, one of their wordings was that he wished the m a peaceful skies to the king a nation and the ukrainians were se we're, we're writing that are in the afternoon or the shelling or all the ukrainian cities where dan, from the village ocean theater and it's interesting that one of their probably for me personally, they mazing thing that this war very clearly revealed is that i'm probably coming from there from this and a post soviet big round being born and possibly biller also gotten grown up there. and we also tend to think that we know our neighbors that were basically all the same, the russians, the ukrainians, the bill at oceans more or less the same nations, a possible nations. but basically, the last 30 years, every country had or had lived their own life and developed in different directions

and ukraine. the koreans has never experienced. they also retire an, an, a rule hand, the way it bill at oceans and russians it, they cannot grasp it. why belittle, since, and russians are not out there in the streets, protesting, i'm a fire when it so, and i me, when they know that you've been and gates, this bullion you out, i mean, rationally the, know the cost of it that you will be in prison but because an in ukraine for the last 30 years, it was possible to go out and protest and then below, and we'll talk about the garbage for example, with also was sometimes very terrifying to go out on st. sent to protest and we saw it in 2014. so we're all saw. we came through this. so i just, we don't know exactly what you experienced like in russian. beller was. but we also believe that if it's like a large amount of people,

it's like big crowd. you can't back everyone to out to suck. yeah. that's right. in the, in burlington ontario, he has huge crowds, fancy, yes. all mom. and i mean, at this claim a probably that of course they, the sufferings of bill at oceans and russians, you cannot in many remote way compared to what ukrainians are going civil, where they were, the bombings and shillings and people dying. but ah, it's some the situation where the protest is there, but it takes are the forms, it's in the underground as i don't know that, that, that in the main self out of minsk there will be an open window. and there they are . and some of ukraine will be blasting out, people showing their attitude, but in a very limited to what, where possibilities that they have. and i want to come back to exactly that, but we have a short report and i'd like to take a closer look at life in all 3 countries. you can't crane russia and

bella, ruth's sorrow, worry and fear co exist with a strange normality in all 3. as people go about their business. ah, everything seems normal here in the ukranian city of chroma tours. not far from the front line. we're so tired because of the war. meanwhile, and neighboring villa roost, president lucas shanker was presenting himself as a caretaker. the opposition once powerful languishes in exile or prison. no one dares rebel against the dictators unholy alliance with russian president vladimir putin who has a firm grip on his country. in moscow and st. your spirit, everything seems normal. cafes and bars are full. only a courageous few still dare to openly criticize the war of aggression.

meanwhile, in the siberian provinces where most soldiers are recruited families more and more and more fallen sons. but even in ukraine, critical voices are growing. protesters fear that as the war drags on democracy and the achievements of the orange revolution will fall by the wayside. can there be freedom for ukraine? only if there is also freedom for russia and bella bruce straight on to you. okay, it's a big one. yeah, i remember, like i said this. yeah, yes, it was here quite but you know, i guess. yeah, we're all in the same. i like international space even if you now want to divide. yeah. our culture and our common ecosystem unit heritage. but anyway, like we like influence do each other. so any way we will need to get back to that

dialogue, maybe after the war, maybe now where too emotional. if an i like i listen to i aggression in use a great many russian books for example. yeah, i read the book that i guess that united this include a book about to yeah, that is about the global decline of violence. yes. you know that my sever, yes. the like for a he thought that to, for like, a lost like 70 years with these degrees is the off some while on in the world. and that now and then the countries almost never go to war with shattered on february 24th, 2020 to my experience in this. yes. so and even like some great to fill my answers, they were wrong. so that is why i didn't like say like maybe a exactly what will happen next. but i guess that we all make

something brilliant on our own. are like, wait, for example, i see many russian people who now joined some special regimes of ukrainian army. i see like russian people who help to us here like for example, on the train station just to translate something from german are to sense, like some, i don't know, special letters to administration and so on. and they were very helpful. and all of that, i think that really matters. so i guess that maybe we all need to do something that we can do as a person independently. yeah. and then it will bring some results. let me just ask you because i report ended up with protests in ukraine in south, and we talked about ukraine being reborn. you talked about ukrainian democracy. how stable and free is ukraine today, president zalinski has become

a hero to millions of people around the world. and yet, there has been some criticism, particularly after he fired the head of the intelligence service and also the state prosecutor. some questions raised about democracy and it's viability in ukraine for the full democracy. it's very broad to like term and to like even some good big scientists they like to find about like, what does the democracy mean and now, but if you talk about your grant, it's a really nice that we have those changes of some a public, a sound like a really big decisions, it means that something works. and also i can tell you that people and you grant their so critical to the power. and they are so light and sometimes angry with our official. so they are national to this year tradition. now to go on to the streets

and to protest. so believe me, if something will happen, they will stop that and ski. but i also could explain you that, for example, are you bringing constitution states that president of ukraine needed to bring this comment as the chief of an army, if something happened? so that is why it's also, he's like direct decision and he's on o needs to rule the country do such a or time. so it's not like auto to reason. it's just a matter of time and it's just to declare, declared in our constitution. so she behavior like this because you have to write a catalina, how firm is put in a grip or, or report to us. the question. can there only be true freedom for ukraine? if russia and bella roost are free? when could that day come?

that's a good question i, melinda, or question i would say, are so far, are russian ruling a lead has demonstrated a certain degree of unity, the civic authorities, their financial authorities have demonstrated much higher competence than the military. once it's a kind of a paradox, that's the power that be released so much on security services and on the military that has done so badly on security services that have misinformed the president on such a grant way, while the much despised civic bureaucracy has continued to hold the country together to preserve the economy in the needs of the sanction storm. so this is, this is kind of kind of for kind of ironic. but at this point, we must say that our russian power machine is, i can say, comparatively stable, but it is kind of preventing the collapse. ah,

so it is possible still for an average russian to leave as if nothing much has happened. you managed to leave the country many, many others have left as well. does this brain drain of critics oppositional voices? does it help or hurt the opposition? i certainly helps the regime of by living out the necessity of a real wide, awful scale repressive campaign. it has been in the nature of our political regime to push the critics to live rather than to prevent them from living in the soviets or our german manner. so after february 24th, it has accelerated, this exalt us has been tremendous. i have begun to realize it only i have a wife here myself. i've been much more fortunate than many others. i was not under

any direct threat. so i came to basically to enjoy my fellowship. but many, many of my colleagues, my friends, are people who were teachers in the same university that i told him, they were obliged to leave because of direct danger. and this is an extremely sad thing for, for the country in general. we can imagine that it's better for the opposition, for their positionally minded, rather to be at large down to be in prison. but it's sad and tragic to realize how many people educated people creative people have chosen to leave the country rather than to remain. i can't say that it's in any way, brings closer the times of freedom, which you mention. and you know, where does the opposition movement stand in bella? russ. today we talked about, or it was mentioned,

the massive protests in 2020 after alexander lucas jenko. i was accused of manipulating the election. has the opposition been snuffed out since then? it so it wouldn't be serious to talk about the opposition inside the country at this point of time. i mean, what we've been observing in russia for the last half a year has been taking place in bills for, for 2 years now. since the end of the protests and they did this, this them the wave of repressions and rolled over the country. it has not stopped, it has never stopped. ah, as of yesterday, they have been 1300 political prisoners in billows. m for it, for in terms of the of germany, it's $11500.00. so 11000 a political prisons and 833-3000 arrest that that would make almost

300000 in germany in 10, in the proportion terms of numbers and 4500 people have been designated political prisoners by i'm in my out. so and russia is, let me remind you a much larger country than bellows. so yes, i meet so many, ah, bill, russian and ones here in, if you creating were to actually succeed in winning the conflict with russia. would that also have a follow on effect for lucas shackle? ah, definitely yes. that, that, that to use the famous what all of the was of the bill at ocean and polish hero that those guys just for our freedom and yours. what ukrainians are heroic lead doing all this for 6 months a half a year is, i mean, the extra face of the war because there was stuff that 8 years ago, they are then their struggle is not only to for the future of ukraine,

but also bill our house and i rush. let me ask all of you and i want to come back to our title because our show is the clock is running. we asked tragic triangle whether putin is destroying all 3 of your countries. and one of the most potent weapons that's being used in this conflict is of course nationalism. we saw it in the murder, now of the daughter of the ultra nationalist russian ad doogie. darya davina was murdered. apparently targeted attack at him massive response by ultra nationalists in russia. would you say that this nationalism is poisoning the region and will go beyond the conflict itself? briefly, olga, if we talk about arc ukrainian k, so it's just, it's irony because we don't have like a much, a larger group of national. these might be some organized people but where, you know, like nationalists but they didn't really even like the level that they needed for

the parliament. so i guess if we need to be careful with this problem, not only like if you're talking about average in for service region on eastern europe, but you also see that societies awful arise. and there are many like people with this nationalists view, but not in that way as like crossing propaganda. put it like on the table when they talk about ukraine, it has been in russia, ethnic nationalism also enjoys or is a marginal are support. so it's, it's an exotic imperial type of nationalism is more understandable to broader russian public. but this is also propagates by mostly by russian state to be once you turn it off or change the tanner of them, this will also change ethnic nationalism. what you call on nationalism is not popular in russia, and we have seen our various examples of that are if it were,

it would have enjoyed the renaissance in 2014, but this is not what happened. and i will say that and you see is reconciliation efforts or dialogue this tragic triangle. as you put it could only be feasible. and when the war ended, i don't think it's possible for the 3 nations to see peacefully at the same table as we're doing now. before and ukraine prevails, and that was awful. can you imagine ukraine actually winning this or ha, in post modern times war and victory as defeats? od. definable in the, in very different ways. we have just mentioned that the war has been going on for years. so 80 years hands are, how will we define the war? well, when did it start and when will the pan best case scenario? the war and ukraine? it winds up. what does it man getting bit crimea stopping, garage yeah. com. yeah,

well that's not a very best case. ah, this is not achievable by millions. i'm afraid i'm going to have to cut off our discussion right. fair. i'm so grateful to all of you for being with us here today . and i'm very glad to have all of you tune again. see you soon. mm. with

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