a 77 percent every weekend on dw. no love has no limits. love is for everybody. love is lies. a love matters and that's my new podcast. i'm evelyn char, mom and i really think we need to talk about all the topics that more survive. and tonight and this i haven't visored, many deer and well known guests. and i would like to invite you to an in the world we live in the fact that i am speaking to you from berlin. this reality was made possible to a large degree by a soviet leader named mikhail gorbachev. he knew when to wield power and also when not to, it made possible the end of the cold war and the end of

a divided germany. it also triggered the implosion of the soviet union. mikhail gorbachev died yesterday in the west many or mourning the loss of a statesman who they also considered a friend inside russia. many are reminded of the leader who was in charge when everything fell apart. i'm begotten berlin. this is the day, ah and moved to get the former. he wasn't courageous or format and a statesman who dead to too many things and he did a lot of damaging things to our country. we're the ones facing the consequences. well, let me highlight which of a sand window freedom that russian society you'll go off last on. i think he wanted to show all countries and also the west, the, you know,

i would say all countries around the world that we are a peaceful country that we are ready to disarm the left from asked wilma, because gorbachev is one of those people who change the world and unquestionably changed it for the better even the acreage to humanity. and that to democracy and freedom became possible in europe. i at the whole, at germany could be united supplies and the iron curtain disappeared. the eyes and the form for fondness. ah, also coming up re unification of germany was possible because mikhail gorbachev did not stand in its way to day on the streets of berlin, expressions of respect and gratitude. and the last i saw of the well that he's good for something good. you know, we have him to thank for our re unification home, but you don't make it. that was the most important thing for us. oh,

i and i'm had snuck now for free and i, i own the biggest thing was freedom to our viewers watching on p b. s. in the united states into all of you around the world. welcome. we begin the day remembering the life and legacy of mikhail gorbachev, the soviet leader, who helped and the cold war gorbachev reportedly passed away yesterday at the age of 91. in the late 19 eighties. gorbachev introduced policies that encouraged openness and reform inside the u. s. s r and he also forged one more ties with the west, which ultimately brought down the iron curtain ending the division of europe. and it also put germany on track to re unification. as a political leader, gorbachev wielded unprecedented powers that set into motion forces inside of his

country, which he would soon no longer be able to control. or he is often held as a hero. here in the west, at home, his name is associated with the collapse of a mighty nation. his legacy is at best. a complicated one. we have this report pacifica in mikhail gorbachev. his 1st speech as leader of the soviet union. it was clear, he was a stark contrast to his predecessors. we adore you as though all right. i live in peace and freedom as the most him. you hold my basic right to the option of a jewel robert olivia. gorbachev wanted to change the soviet union to bring it closer to the people. he promoted glass, nest openness, and perestroika reforms to words that will forever be associated with him. his new outlook was popular with many his policies also

applied to the military, despite the resistance of soviet generals which it last year severe for his honest, i'm convinced that we will also have to reform our military. we have far too many weapons love, sickly. we have to seek dialogue with other superpowers and reduce our arsenals to a reasonable extent, yourself. as a result of that dialogue. gorbachev and you as president reagan find the 1st of many disarmament treaties in 1987. it was the beginning of the end of the cold war in october 1989 when he visited east berlin for the g d r's, 40th anniversary celebrations. gorbachev urged eric hanukkah to implement reforms. he warned the eastern leader saying, life punishes those who come to late

a month after his visit. the berlin wall fell and with it, the iron curtain that had divided europe for decades. it was gorbachev's, reformist, policies that helped unleash a peaceful revolution across eastern europe. in 1990 gorbachev was awarded the nobel peace prize for his key role in bringing about a new peaceful world order. internationally, he was highly regarded but at home he was increasingly under pressure. the economic situation was dire. the soviet union on the verge of falling apart, communist hardliners stage, a coup against gorbachev in august 1991. at the end of that year, mikhail gorbachev announced his resignation and the soviet union was dissolved with many russians holding him responsible for its demise.

while the passing of mikhail gorbachev has triggered across the globe waves of emotions and reflections, and they all speak to the impact that gorbachev and his policies had far beyond the borders of the former soviet union. joining me tonight to discuss the legacy or to authorities on soviet and russian history, as well as foreign policy. angela stent. she's the author of hooton's world, russia against the west, and with the rest. professor stant is a senior fellow at the brookings institution. she joins me tonight from washington, and i'm also happy to welcome to the program william tubman. he is a pulitzer prize winning author. his latest book is entitled gorbachev. his life in times. and mr. talbot is also in the u. s. capital tonight to both of you. welcome to the program. i'm glad that you can take the time with us this evening to talk

about the life and legacy of mikhail gorbachev. his death became known public knowledge about 24 hours ago. the west has been emoting ever since about a great statesman inside russia. we've had a telegram from the kremlin, sent to the family, and that's about it. we in the west, it seems wish that we had had more gorbachev. and in the kremlin, you get the sense that they are wishing that they had never had any gorbachev. professor stent. let me start with you. what do you say to that? is that how the dividing lines or tonight? well, they can be a certainty like that in western europe and the united states. gorbachev is a great statesman who and ended the cold war, allowed germany to unify peacefully and really liberated millions of people inside the soviet union, free political prisoners. and then in eastern europe, who had been part of the soviet block,

that's not how you see clearly either in the kremlin or among many russians who been mon, the full of the soviet union. after all, who himself is said that the class of the soviet union with the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the 20th century, because it left millions of russians outside of russia and he's right now trying to remedy and really he has systematically gone about reversing many of the reforms that gorbachev himself did you know, we're going to talk about that in just a moment. mr. kelvin. let me ask you about the notion of gorbachev inside russia. you have written that gorbachev was too decent to be the leader of his country. why do you think that is well, just look at his predecessors, soviet leaders like when installing herself, but bridge enough, ah, they were all to ready to shed blood in the case of stolen, especially on

a mammoth scale to attain their aims. gorbachev was reluctant to use force and violence of gorbachev. law was very optimistic about the possibilities of people coming to govern themselves in a democracy. gorbachev trusted reagan, thatcher meter on coal, to work with him to in the cold war. these qualities of optimism, of trust, of revulsion against force and violence, of these turned out to not be sufficiently suitable to a country in which had experienced so much force and violence, so much authoritarianism, totalitarianism, ah, i got to know him fairly well when i was interviewing him for the book and in person, he struck us too, as a, as a decent man, warm, informal, natural, with

a sense of humor. i often wondered how the hell he had managed to defeat his rivals to become the leader of this country. and then how he dared to think that he could get away with transforming it and the world in the ways that he dreamed he could. well, mr. tell would that's it. that's a good point. you make gorbachev. he set into motion forces that he would later not be able to steer or control at all. i mean, we, after remember he was a communist leader. he wanted reform, but there was no guide book for him to turn a command economy into something that resembled a market economy. i'm wondering if, if you think, did he push forward with these reforms somewhat blindly and with a considerable degree of naivete. well, i would say yes, he was naive and even utopian in a sense that he tried to do what turned out to be impossible. you can make

a pretty good case that his whole project was doomed from the start by russia. what it was, by its own history, by the forces who remained from the soviet totalitarianism, who were allied, arrayed against him. um, but none the less he tried. and in that sense, no one has to respect him, admire him, and almost wish for more leaders in other countries who would dare to try. and professor sent. gorbachev of course, was not that he wasn't a simple man and he was complex. he was complicated. he was a complex and complicated russian. he considered the annexation of crimea to be correct in 2014. but he was quoted as saying that war with ukraine would never happen. and he said also, even if you can't prove it scientifically, the russians and the ukrainians,

they belong together. what picture does that paint been of gorbachev? i think his attitudes were very much those off. so we had people in many rations today, after all, ukraine, you know, was part of the soviet union, ukrainian, russia has a history of very complicated history that goes back centuries. and so most russians found it very hard when the soviet union collapsed to accept that ukrainians were a separate nation. i had the right to a separate state. so i think it's remarkable that he sent those things. but we should also remember that he unleashed a process. and i think when i go came to the united states in the early ninety's and he was speaking at the library of congress. somebody asked him, what was your biggest mistake? and he said in an understatement, i underestimated the nationalities question. so i think like many soviet leaders and soviet citizens,

he didn't realize how much the non russian nationalities actually wanted their own independence. and as soon as he opened up the us, nothing people were able to discuss these issues. their desire for freedom and independence became stronger. but he did not mean to process where the ukrainians, while, while the soviet union still existed, were able to elect their own lead within the soviet union. and so again, these were predecessors that he on leash, that he didn't fully understand. and that he didn't intend to do at the beginning, he did not intend to see the destruction of the soviet union. but we have to remember that he and me and did nothing to stop it. and i think that again, he's, unlike most russian leaders that he voluntarily stacked to back, admittedly under pressure from boris yeltsin and the ukrainian or russian leaders. and but he didn't fight to stay in power. he didn't have the army come and support him. so i think we shouldn't criticize him too much for what he said about ukraine

because for a man of his generation and it's not surprising resident, i want to pick up on the, on the, the polluted factor here. you, along with fiona hill, wrote an article in foreign affairs recently in the title is the world putin wants, has putin succeeded already in dismantling everything that gorbachev was able to achieve inside russia in terms of greater openness and ex, extending freedom such as freedom of expression freedom of the press. well, russia is a far more oppressive place now than it was. the soviet union was under gorbachev. and it resembles to some extent what life was like under the breaking the breaking up period. the only difference is that russians can still, with great difficulty, leave russia. he really has a dismantled most of that, and primarily is how bent on subjugating ukraine on reabsorbed ukraine

into rush, aaron, to some kind of slavic federation. so he is deliberately progressing, in essence, the collapse of the soviet union. he said that the collapse of the soviet union was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe. and he's determined to reverse that, whether he can do it, i don't know, but it sent me the direct opposite of everything that gorbachev set in motion. and mister, tell me, do you see? then the invention of ukraine is this vladimir putin's remedy to the disaster that occurred during gorbachev swatch. well, putin obviously think, so i don't think so myself because it's hard to characterize a blood bath with all kinds of horrendous consequences as a, as a remedy. a but he said this is putin's way of saying that without

saying it, that gorbachev was responsible for allowing the soviet union to fall apart. and, and that falling apart, included, as angela just said, the, the attempt successful in the end by so many of those soviet republics to break away and become independent and sovereign and try to determine their own future. i'd like to get both of you give me your opinions on, on this assessment. there are some americans who may be tempted to call mikhail gorbachev. the soviet jimmy carter, a leader, a man who had the best intentions for his country and his people, but whose policies left voters feeling worse? not better. mister tubman, what do you say it was he was he the soviet jimmy carter at the end of the day? i'm sorry. are you asking me?

yes, yes. yes. well, i'm to, i'm rolling that around in my head of the as i said, there was a certain naive tate gorbachev. there was a certain utopianism. but on the other hand, gorbachev was tough and canny. and his ability working within the still confines of the soviet system to get commerce communist hard liners to give up their power until they change their mind and tried to get his a get him to give up is, was really quite extraordinary when you go back to 1985 when he took over and assumed the leadership of a poet bureau that included a of the brush enough cohorts cohorts and lackeys. it's really remarkable what he was able to do. in fact, the irony, i think, is that he proved to be a more successful ruthless manipulator of the old levers

of the old soviet system. then a sort of entrepreneur of democracy. it was better at forcing out camico and in the kremlin. then in mobilizing electoral forces to back his policies, once he had opened up the system to free voting elections and created a genuinely functioning parliament in president. what's your take on this? because after he left politics. gorbachev, you know, he set up this institute that was trying to help civil society in russia. i mean, there are analogies to what we've seen with former president jimmy carter, but other u. s. presidents do you see americans maybe being able to draw this compares well with all due respect to present conduct,

i think what present liter gorbachev did with fall, consequential. because even though he made mistakes, i clearly vacillated between economic reform and then going back to the centrally planned system. and he was a very good tactician. but in the end, i think he didn't have a very good strategy given all of that free russian people giving them greater liberty and freedom of expression that helped laugh at him. exactly. and i think we can discuss what happened in the ninety's, but this, this feeling of greater empowerment than he gave russians out last in him. this is something now obviously, that the human regime is trying to crush and to try and reverse. but even younger people today, and today you can follow the tweets that alex saying of only the opposition need in solitary confinement in prison. that job gets the tweets through his lawyers praising gorbachev. not only for the freedoms that because he's an example of the

leader who was corrupt, he could have accumulated well and all the finer things of life and he didn't. so i think he sent an example that which even though it's very difficult to follow it at the moment in russia, is something that is out last. and that even younger people on the staff because i'd like maybe if you could help me here and try to connect the legacy of gorbachev to the situation we see in modern day america tomorrow evening. you as president biden plans to speak to the american people, reportedly about the battle for the soul of the country. he's concerned about that . is there a connection to the death of gorbachev. gorbachev represented ideas that made our current world order possible. he has now passed away and do, do a lot of americans feel that the world that as we know, it also seems to be slipping away as well. will certainly gorbachev promoted

successfully greater democracy within the soviet union. and what we see today in the united states clearly is an erosion of democracy and, and, and ha, if not half of the country significant part of the country, no longer believing in normal democratic norms in the rule of law. so i think it's a very, it's a very serious situation. and i think it behooves us to look at other countries where, where the freedom is and the rule of law no longer exist and remind ourselves that if we go down that path than in fact, that will be the end of this democratic experiment in america. we've got 2 more minutes. i've got a final question to you both. mister tillman of start out, start with you. gorbachev important. never criticized each other publicly. at least, not directly. putin did not praise gorbachev to day, but he also did not cast him in a negative light even in that telegram that was sent to the gorbachev family. does

gorbachev in your opinion? does his legacy, does it present any type of threat to put in more in depth than gorbachev did in life? well, you know, among low, currently tens of thousands may be hundreds of thousands of russians who have emigrated, fled from hooton's, russia after or, and ukraine began where at least one person was telling me the other day that there are a lot of russians who believe another perestroika is necessary. now i can readily believe that among those who have fled from putin's russia, i guess the question is, are there among those who have not fled, especially the younger generation? is, is it dawning on them the, the kind of reforms that, that gorbachev favor the kid is throwing co, is again,

something that they hope to see happening in russia. i guess i'm skeptical as to how wide that sentiment is. after all these years in which russians have a custom themselves, to despising russia. gorbachev unfortunately were out of time. but i want to think both of you angela stant, senior fellow at the brookings institution, and william tell me, pulitzer prize winning author to both of you. we appreciate your time and your insights. an excellent discussion, helping us understand the legacy of mikhail gorbachev. thank you. thank you. finally, most russians would probably prefer to forget the 1990 s. after the collapse of the soviet union, the russian economy resembled the wild west. a few became very rich, while most people struggle just to put food on the table. this was also the time when the u. s. restaurant chain pizza hut produced a television commercial storing. mikhail gorbachev and his granddaughter. it was an

ad for pizza, but it also had a message of national unity take a look. ah. i forgot about you. let you at the city will not become a meet, you better look at that as you move on. that's no way was more of the reason you want us. why did you just can you study? you know that a more more that oh wow, good 50. what did you experience in the book of that a more a sometimes nothing brings people together like a nice high feature from it

may not surprise you to learn that the commercial was never shown on russian tv, but name. gorbachev was obviously not a money maker. the message of national unity did not seem to be a winner either. the day's almost on the conversation, he continues online. you'll find us on twitter. you can follow me on twitter at brent golf t v. and remember, whatever happens between now and then tomorrow is another day we'll see you then if with with

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