so gone the long shadow of the 1972 olympic massacre and this the world should not forget. in 30 minutes on d w, we've got some hot tips for your bucket list. romantic corners hotspot for food, chair and some great cultural memorials to boot w travel off. we go. as russian forces advanced in the east of ukraine here is warning allies. it's massively out gun. this week, a senior adviser to president the landscape that western support wasn't enough to combat russia's fire power. my guest is weak from poland, his rabbit sikowski, who served as both foreign and defense minister, and is now a member of the european parliament. he thinks those pressing for a quick c spy

a wrong, but it would be better to, to defeat russia in the, in don. both are also better for russia. remember, you as well as i do that in russia revolution or reform, usually happen after a long war. but has nato already given way to nuclear blackmail from the kremlin? should be you finally set up an army worthy of the name and is more european leaders plan to visit here. does the west the actually have a plan for how this war might end. all that and more uncomfortable. for robin gorski, welcome to complex zone. hello. an urgent cry for help this week from the ukrainians. they say they're hugely outgunned by moscow and president landscape advisor mckayla padaya once arms and on says if you think we should lose, he said,

just tell us directly we want you to lose them. will understand why you give us weapons at this level. this is a very loud alarm. bell ringing and is made. are going to stand by and let you go under these decisions by member states of nato. i was just in washington talk to high ranking people at the pentagon, and they are convinced that the american pipeline is working and the deliveries will make it to the front line in the next few weeks. but these are some new items of equipment and soldiers in training. remember, the united states passed the bill in congress authorizing $40000000000.00 for ukraine, half of it for arm. that's a multiple of the ukraine in defense budget, let alone it's procurement budget. poland is also rallying round countries in the

ukraine region per capita. contribute it contribute, contributing a great deal. but, but of course, russia has depth. russia is a much bigger country than ukraine. ukraine is gone, but at the moment, according to the ukrainians, russia is firing around $70000.00 projectiles a day of their forces. that's about 10 times the number that ukraine can muster. how can anyone expect ukraine not to buckle and this kind of onslaught? the count can be, we always knew that russia would have a new americal and, and mass quality quantity of superiority. but remember the ukrainians receiving technical intelligence from the americans live, which means that they know exactly where the russians are and, and partly what date and 10 at which is a huge force multiplier. frankly,

i was expecting the russians to win the invasion and for the ukrainians to prevent when the great war ukrainians have exceeded my expectations. but of course, from that point of view, it must seem terrible. so yes, we should, or we shall, we should do what we can to, to help defend this democracy that has not given any provocation from a, an invasion which according to proven putin, has the intention of exterminating ukraine as a state of the culture. and i just hope that president sorry, chancellor, germany president macro and prime minister druggie. i'm not going to keep empty handed. i guess my question is, is the landscape going to get an honest answer from the alliance?

i asked because he got a visit last week from britain's defense secretary ben wallace, who told him, i think we can push russia out of don bass. is that really an honest assessment? i hope so. ben wallace is the author of possibly the best rebuttal of love to be approaching the essay from july last year in which he mixed up all the mis so sorry. and so good idea. ology to claim that ukraine was not a real country. so he's the man of great abilities and i'm told he wretched himself . i doubt he is. he's, he's just speaking to the wind. so if you're saying this, i hope he's right. but given the situation on the ground at the moment, you see any way that russia is going to allow itself to get pushed out of the dunbar after all, they've been there in one form or another fermenting of war for the last 8 years.

haven't by yes, but not in the same places. there were the line of contact further to the reese, but remember the very limited gains that they made in the don have been purchased at a huge expense in mercury and blood. so the ukrainians are fighting a very intelligent war. they are not giving the russians a set battle which they might lose, but just imposing a huge cost on them. as you know, if the ukraine estimates the russian losses anywhere near correct, you know that claiming 32000 russian dead, let's say that that's exaggerated by a 3rd that's still doubled, the number of soldiers killed in ukraine in 3 months. then the, the entire soviet union lost in 10 years of its war and i've got a huge losses,

particularly when you take into account the fact that for every dead soldier, there are usually 2 or 3 that i wanted. but the message that is coming out of k f now is, is of a pretty dire situation, isn't it? you know, i wonder what all these fine words that ukraine has received. we've got your back, we're not going to let you lose. we stand shoulder to shoulder. what are those fine woods worth when nato is in effect, half sitting on the fence, watching large pots of ukraine being shell to pieces. tim, that's a great question, and i'm glad you asking me this question on the chevy lab. but i think i should ask the question to yes, and if he came on the program we suddenly what, but what, what if, what is your answer? i did, it should do what it said it would do, which is through ukraine. is everybody doing what they say they were going to do?

isn't that the case, the what holding nato back from giving you creating the 5 par at needs? and from confronting russia directly is basically putins nuclear blackmail is one of the most consequential aspects of this war that the west has already given. in to that blackmail, the roughly 70 broke the budapest memorandum of $994.00 on the which ukraine gave up. what was the 3rd largest stockpile of nuclear warheads in return for guarantees of independence and border a guarantees from russia from the united states, u. k, france, and china. so these countries in russia has broken it, have a duty to help you. by the way, china is the country that could really help which in to get out of your current or else but yes, this is. a actually not for nature because nature was in the line,

doesn't have stockpiles of, of equipment. it's members, space and members. they should be assessed on that pair capital contribution to that ukrainian defense. and on this, as i've mentioned before, eastern europe looks good in either states, look good, the u. k. ok. but, but, but some of the largest countries in the european union and they don't look so good . but my bind is rarely that old president putin had to do was to wave his nuclear missiles at nato, from a distance, and implicitly threatened to escalate to a nuclear war. and nato back down that is consequential isn't as far as global security is concerned. no, i don't see that it's that russian threaten us with mutes all the time. you know, when i was foreign minister, negotiated with the americans,

the placing of the missile defense, agent, poland, they were doing it so. so frequently that i had to publicly asked the russian general stop to threaten us with nuclear annihilation. no more than once a quarter. and then they stopped. look, we are a nuclear lyons to and then you can when you come back, the real threat is to ukraine. but my impression is that they were using this in the 1st month of the war. and if they stopped, if moscow does prevail in the east, your pretty pessimistic about the outcome of this want you, you said in may. if president putin gets the dumbass like he got crimea, he'll then rebuild his army. and in a few years time, he'll go on the offensive again to try to get the rest of ukraine. do you really think as things stand now that ukraine is going to be in

a position to prevent that happening? well, you know, our strategic culture says that you should always give the enemy so called off from an opportunity to correct the mistake a but what's president put you clearly douglas shall strategic culture. and you only need to read him from the india, say that i've already mentioned his proclamation to the russian people on the south of this war at to know that his, the objective is to take over or dominate, or at least the rule in all of ukraine. so yes, i'm afraid that that as see now, just mean more war and if you have time, so it would be better to, to defeat russia in the, in don, but also better for russia. remember, you know, as well as i do that in russia, revolution or reform usually happened after the last war. you give an off ramp and

you give excuses and you give away out to somebody who's forces of committed the kinds of war crimes that putins forces that committed sticks in the doesn't it my point exactly at know we should and remember the nature ministerial communicate, the aim of the alliance is, is true or false russian true back across the international border of ukraine. that would be a visible sign of twitching fadia and hope for the government of russia. in the future. you say that the, the nato plan last week, the ukranian, m, p, and head of the goal of party, kara roodick said she was extremely upset because it didn't seem that the collective west had any kind of strategy or plan for how this war should be handled

. is she right? well, the americans have done all ukraine far more than i would have expected 5 months ago. partly because they see this as a warning to china not to try to take over taiwan. and let you know 20 the, the $20000000000.00 on the fence for ukraine only being delivered. now let's give them a chance. nato's boss, young stockton bug said a few days ago, that the alliance must be prepared for the loan. the whole is it in fact prepared for that in your view, or can you foresee circumstances under which nato might not hold together over that long haul and might reluctantly accepted russia, hold on to the areas in the region. so that seized i think president putin has given the nature of a new lease of life. you know, off that the year of expedition. we've wafaa some people in the airlines were

wondering whether it's still relevant. we've been warning a western allies all along russia, state ideology, russia security services, and russia sizes points to new imperialism. and unfortunately, we've indicated it took nature some yet to write contingency plans for central europe. then some minimal physical presence, but this physical presence is now increasing. we have elements of the 2nd airborne in southeastern poland. we have a logistical bridge to produce ports and fields with the delivery of of weapons and ammunition to ukraine. and there are plans to beef up nature present in central europe further, which is correct. you know, we had a russia

a need for russia founding act, which russia has blatantly broken too, and have to be consequences. but that new lease of life that you're talking about for nato, depends on your crane winning, or at least being able to hold onto the territory it had up till february, the 24 and russia losing. and that money, none of that, none of that seems likely, does it? no, didn't. technically speaking you're crane, of course is not a nature nature. defend the territory of its members. i meant from the point to the system, so it's giving to nato. it's got a way better to stop twitching in eastern ukraine then to have to fight on the nature border shore. but but, but ukrainian giving us the time to beef up defenses. and i just hope that

countries now at last become serious about spending 2 percent of g d. p on the defense polar has been doing it for the last 15 years. we are now raising it to 3 percent. how worried are you about disagreements with in the alliance? i'm thinking of turkey blocking accession by finland and sweden starting back referred to it himself in the last few days or something he take seriously. given the fact that old decisions in nature require consensus couldn't turkey seriously blunt nato's edge. not nature's edge, but it can blunt enlargement clearly because you need an unlimited. you say the turkey is involved in a very bloody and difficult syrian civil war. and remember, the kurdish faction is also a factor in internal turkish politics, including in,

in the current campaign, in turkey. so issues to do with a courtesy parties, all the formations are very serious for turkey and finland. and we'd have to engage in a series dialogue with talk your budget. but i can assure you that the great majority of members, poland, included, we'll see finland and sweden as enhancements of our security. and i'd be very happy to have the swedes in defense alongside me in the trench. let's talk a bit about america if we may. joe biden has spent the time since he took office, telling your opinions. america is back. but the holy, legitimate question that the pins and throw back at him was for how long is that question still valid? has the us become intrinsically unreliable for europe? wellington you probably know the same. i think that about cover and stolen. who said that the trouble with democracy is you never know who is going to win. and yet

we don't know whether donald trump might not come back and, you know, i mean, and if he does, he named europe as a ho. and remember his 1st impeachment was because he tried to blackmail president the landscape over on deliveries to ukraine a because you know, to, to give him on the hunter biden. and you know, this is the kind of stuff where we are likely to be dealing with. if it will be a disaster to your call said publicly that he trusted fujen more than he trusted the v i. i think he, he would probably decrease, saw and american supposed to be great. so in the light of that, is it time for europe to get serious about its own army instead of just talking

about it or do john called young has comments back in 2015 still. how good. when he said, if i look at the common european defense policy, a bunch of chickens would be a more unified combat unit. is that still the case? i'm glad you've probably seen some of my speeches in the european parliament. i've been bugging on it, but for months, in fact, i was saying last. yeah. you know what disaster has to happen on our board is before we get serious about european defense and pushing has exceeded my expectations. because you absolutely right. if i that from becomes president, all american rivalry, china gets hot. next time we might not be so lucky to have american leadership in a crate on, on europe's periphery. and we would be thrown back on our own resources and we are completely unprepared. common defense takes

a lot of money and time and we start getting ready. now you will be in serious trouble. that's why my pot, european people's party has table proposals in the process of the conference for the future of europe to create as opposed of the commission of defense to create a rapid reaction force. to enlarge the european defense budgets to have a joint headquarters and to have more joint procurement of weapons. so the defense euros are better spent. these are very urgent issues. so, so your idea is that europe should finally start punching above its weight instead of below its weight as it has been doing over the last few years. well, if we just started punching at the weights, i would already be satisfied. and you know, if it is particularly in germany's interest,

if they really start rearming and it's a big gift because we know of the politics or inside the then i think it would be in germany is interest to put that re armaments in the larger european. also decision making context because we already have national, including in my own country the, the leader of the routing party is, you know, the germans have a, have very start to doing anything. and he's already accusing them of militarism. so i think you'll be in, in, in germany, interest give strong backing to european, defend staying with germany. you observed last year that the modern international system had been shaped by what you called western wishful thinking and hubris. the blame germany about, about wishful thinking and hubris. partly because germany found itself very comfortable with not having to do security policy and even to some extent foreign

policy and living under the american umbrella and, and allowing itself to be led by other countries in foreign policy and pursuing very successfully at freight and industrial policy. and this was backed up by an honorable shame for what germany did during the 2nd world war. but it created the impression that somehow germany is better because it's not using force to counter force. now the 24th of february should put an end to these illusions. we are not in a country and eternal peace. there are countries in europe, one particular europe who doesn't subscribe to these a find values. who doesn't see that? the way to resolve ethnic problems in don,

my in the don bus is to apply the european convention on the production of minorities, but which has launched an unprovoked invasion. and i'm afraid that to defend ourselves against the revision is aggressive region. the vision is part is with counter power and, and, and germany has not fully absorbed his lesson. let's talk for a moment about the, the russian economy. the west has made huge sacrifices. we know to hit moscow with what they call punitive sanctions. how concern though, are you that the effect of those sanctions now seems to be waning? the ruble is now 30 percent above its pre invasion level and is the world's best performing currency this year? that's not exactly what the west hoped for is it know. and then we know the reason for that, namely that we are still buying russian carbohydrates. and we need to,

we need to, we not cells away from them. we need to diversify. if saudi arabia start pumping oil, that the price should come down and then, and then you will have less money to fight his war. the russian economy is facing this investment is facing restrictions on the high tech in force that should make it harder for him to rebuild his us know, particularly of high tech weapons. russia doesn't produce chips for, for its computers. so you know, sanctions only have an ton but a but i agree with what i think you're implying. namely, sanctions should be more cost me to put them to all. so that's why we need to be smart about them. but you really think the west has done anything in terms of

sanctioning either people or goods that will change attitudes in the kremlin. that was after all, the main point of the sanctions wasn't it know immediately. but, you know, in addition, we founded a trade in technology council with the united states, where we will be coordinating on the investment flows on, on trade practices and decisions and on industrial and technical and research standards. remember in the $980.00, there was an institution of cold cochlan coordinating committee, which restricted the flow of, of technology to the then commented blog. it took a while, but it worked to frankie late. it commented, the commented economy in the final word briefly on, on the concerns which are coming out of k f. what, what would you want to be able to tell them on behalf of nato, that the cavalry is not the cavalry is coming, but at least the galleries are going to be sending sufficient weapons for them to

do the job that we are asking ukraine to do. from what the americans are telling me the wagon with i munition on the way. so hold on, hold on in the products of course key. thanks very much for your time. good to have your own program. thank you. and yes, ah ah, with

a 50 years ago, the intuition gathering of peace and cooperation becomes the scene of a horrible tragedy. arab terrorists armed with sub machine guns when today what is on the really team and immediately killed one man. and that was really the last time i saw him and they're all gone. the long shadow of the 1972 olympic massacre.

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