i already knows with hackers and paralyzing your societies computers that have some or you and governments that go crazy for your data. we explain how these technologies work, how they can sit for that's how they can also go terribly. watch it now. new to russia has suffered key reversals on the battlefield as chaos forces have counter attacked and sees back a wide sway the territory. my guess this week from moscow is andre kalashnikov, senior fellow at the think tank, the carnegie endowment for international peace as anger amounts among some of

vladimir putin supporters. how vulnerable is he? he's ready to stay in power at all costs, because he considers himself as a son, and this has his own mission, and he must returns, was grant greatness to russia, but the conflict to split russian society and radicalized both supporters and opponents of the war. how serious are the calls from local lawmakers for put in to resign? the will face treason charges, and will russia pose more of a threat to the west if it winds your war all loses? andre collecting cough in moscow. welcome to conflict zone. thanks a lot. seems clear that ukraine has made some important military gains in recent days as things stand now, how big a set back are these ukranian advances for the kremlin?

i know it's, it's a hard question because i don't think that kremlin has as really answer to this counter offensive military answer. i mean, then political one and psychological in order to, to let sit justify possible problems. as a beginning they said that this is regrouping for troops. not more but i think chrome is not ready to make any concessions in any diplomatic sense. and in the political science it is ready for further war of attrition. it could be continued and crammed on until now. next has this kind of resource. i've been primarily military resource. so this is to be continued. do you expect her marked escalation from the kremlin in response to ukrainian moves? i think it's possible, as could be natural as for from criminal site,

given the thinking it's very, very militarize. it's very aggressive and in that sense, i think they are pretty preparing right now. some seek military got the same times . they must find wars for different groups of the population because there are a lot of hawks among people who are supporting, put him supporting of the war primarily, and has problems with, with support from, from just very group. because amongst the portraits of perkins, there is a group of course and a group of dos from dos as a she'll kind of authentic as they want to p stocks and vice versa. so pretty much described or military or sorry, this describes dissertation in proper words. but the total

indifference of the population saves. so right now, put into problem put in. so i can say that this is going to, it could just suck impulse, but very problematic situation. pushing i tell you from what you say there will be people, even among the elite to asking themselves in fly demon putin is still up to the job . we have the chechen leader rams and cut off who doesn't hide his anger. he said, if today or tomorrow, changes are not made in the conduct of the military operation, i'll be forced to go to the countries leadership to explain the situation on the ground. that's pretty direct and that's pretty insulting, isn't it for the president? since he has to spend the fangs, it's got a full the stress of that. he's a soldier for him, then simply obeying him and she can implement any commands from kremlin

farther sickly. his, he is such a sincere person. when he's describing the current situation, i think you will guess some science command from kremlin to, to get you to this topic because it's too sensitive for kremlin. this is an excess of one of the persons who are involved in this terrible disaster in this terrible conflicts. i don't think that could be serious. yes. yes, it is noticeable for a lot of people. but as the same tamp, time generally doesn't change. the public opinion around doesn't change the situation and does not influence the military decisions. another people are responsible for a military answer to ukraine's so it's symptomatic,

but it is still not so dangerous. so for a bruton, we're not talking about was symbol discontent in science 0 it's i think we can witness different kinds of just contents. but people are trying to be in youth leads because they care they afraid of their position and sizes, established rooms. we're also seeing for the 1st time political moves against the president from elected representatives will be at the local municipal level in both moscow and st. petersburg, public goals for him to resign. and in the case of st. petersburg calls for him to face charges of treason. isn't it extraordinary? these moves, and how serious do you think they are? or how serious could these become? this is very interesting phenomenon because politically,

it is not so important for kremlin. it is not a danger for criminal venica because municipal gypsies do not play any significant role in this political system. but at the same time, it's symptomatic that people don't feel fear, mis situation where they could depress excuses for this kind of letters. and those are the most fear in the answer is very sultry and everyone who express she is almost view on all the situation, could be prosecuted by and by the scientist in terms of you, in the criminal code to administrative court some places. but nevertheless, it was threat such prophetic from the situation and then say once openly, voluntarily express discontent was put in sessions. this is something you know,

special from the size of municipal deputies and maybe this is soon you sign up from growing discontent in science. not only lead butts inside the society as such because municipal differences closer to society than any kind of the mother state level for deputies, regional level or federal level. what happens if these actions spread to other municipal authorities or to moscow itself? how dangerous could that be for the president, the struggles to suppress? and of the moment, nobody paid a lot of attention seats safe disposable. that's all just people because then as it's kind of letters could be in trouble. i'm afraid that it's going to disprove. it's around all around the whole russian. in that case, yes,

it's dangerous promot primarily not for putting bucks for deputies again, but it's, it's really important sets civil society still here and still society still express and use not only using such tools come into the streets or broadcasting because journalists but a writing class or so to tell the story is accusing, put in, in, in a states treason. this is an important sign up till now. moscow has done everything. seems to have done everything to pretend that life is just the same as ever in russia now mass funerals, no weeping mothers on television. the ballet and our proceedings are getting on the way and moscow museums galleries are open. the poppy boats going up and down the moscow river is this fictional no malice he about to come to

a sudden end to think we'll see full scale mobilization now. yeah, this is the right term fiction on the mileage. put his creates these impression that people are creating specialists and portions in name big cities. ah, because for instance, i've got in who's one of the ellis of his quiet kids a good say state manager osco must leaf. so normal life, in order to be distracted from all this atrocities, some disaster is the grand france. and the rest stepped from put aside, was not to announce general mil, military mobilization, military address. because it could provoke discontent among criminal costs. millions of people who are living in the big cities or middle says they don't want

to go to war. we can talk about, let's say college troops which are sitting their homes watching tv ah, in different las supporting the special operation. but as the same time, they don't think about those, the involvement into real war into trenches. and this is more for a poor population, poor groups of population for people from republics, distance province. this could be soldiers. this is for so here up to tracks. for this is a julie's in the, in brains for, for russians, especially middle classes. here is one trip. i am living my private life. as it was always, i am concentrating on the surviving as it, in other treacherous states. rec, so people put in, initiated this war. morticia knows better. i will not pay too much attention to his

arguments, but he is always right. i will support that's indifferent, plain not fiercely so and put him gives me an opportunity to concentrate on my own business on my own problems and don't wait for any help for him from him. but it's quite who's that he doesn't and often to my problems. so it is useful for himself because she can continue this for i'm not paying too much attention. i'm not attracting too much attention to it because atrocities people are trying not to pay a lot of attention to bad news. want to be on society for goodness natalie's the center of evil. and because of that they, they prefer to block bed information. and it's quite good for pretend right

now. your one of the sharpest russian critics of the war in ukraine, and that may put in one of the sharpest critic, still writing and still in russia. do you not feel on the threat yourself personally doing this? you know, there is such a special term scholar at risk. so who could save that? them a scholar at risk. but there are very different reasons for different people to stay in russia or to leave russian. and i know a lot of my colleagues and friends for us to hear. some of them are persecutes, it's some of them are arrested, for instance, 2 micro political scientists and the leticia. and then it goes by this only an administrator for persecution, for him or for the people. it's better to leave the russian and the case of

persecution for any person here is better not to play this game with us for it is because it's dangerous drums have been to your physical health and possible arrests, etc, etc. but from the point of view, for real research, from a point of view of understanding what is happening here from the point of view of your own attitude towards this regime. this is quite important to be here. so this is my country. my country is not equal to put his country, and i prefer to be here because i don't feel and to get a guilt, so i don't feel any responsibility for put on the thrusters. so this is my troops. ah, but again, in some circumstances could be noticeable to, to,

to leave the country just like it was inevitable for primarily prominent journalists to leave russia in order to contribute information, real alternative information for the russian population. they can do it from inside, until now i can broadcast and i can write, but it could finish in any moment. couldn't, doesn't scare you though, darcy, he's a real dick said we're who is sincerely assured that nobody can shut her. she is authority. that he, she has mission to create new silver and she knew greatness to russia and she must consolidate people around him. and people are not ready to be consolidated . they are simply national 3. she's come, come and miss for national cetera. he's not the president of the whole russian handled rushed in that sense. ah,

maybe he respects she respects his enemies, but it doesn't mean that they put them be persecuted because of this respectable status. so he says, sure is that he's doing arizona writes, you written at length about your country past, present future. but i was struck by how you recently connected the dots. russia you said, is i'm lucky with its future because it's on lucky with it's passed. it suggests your country is changed to what a violent history and can't find its way to breaking free from that. is that what you meant to convey? i mean that's one of the grounds for consider, jeez, the glorious past and very specific interpretation of the history. which is really

falsification of your own history because she takes dark pages this of this past and he is what white fortune presents he's whitewash incur the stolen his time. ah. and in that sense, historical policy for him. this is a tool for gover. things discounts ah, he craves false lawyer is fast and this is ground for consolidating around him. is an inheritor of his grades. so, if you'll take a real pass, you will, you should be ready for any kind of normal reading coast as fast. we can make conclusions from its best conclusions, horrible conclusions, but this is the ground for going somewhere for the future. just like just like it wasn't perestroika test we, when we we became to

to know something about ourselves. not our past. it was, it became an open window for the future for moving from a horrible past normal future to westernize it and modernize it's russia right now as soon as last reverse. so it's very important to recreate understanding of your own bus in cable to know and to admit that some pages in this past was horrible. were horrible. you said that put in whitewash is the style in this period now, but it wasn't always that way. 5 years ago, he stood by the so called wall of grief in moscow and said it was important to remember the repression that took place in soviet society. and now children are taught in your schools that the old soviet union didn't repress anybody. what

changed putin do you think? i, i don't believe in the evolution of put in for use of shoes in the year to solvent one. he only inches away. total power i. comparison was muslim miscellany in terms of she can restore some to tell terry and features which are typically for the past. and he simply adapted to current circumstances from the beginning. he was inheritor of he also had to support some ideas about democracy. good relations was the rest of cetera, et cetera. but now he is absolutely sincere. he is free from politeness. he lost his shame. absolutely. she disrupted all the plans for the rest. so he subsided,

russia, he expressed consent, was it so for him a repression of this is ruth, she admits he is ready to say that there were repressions, but at the same time, ah, she can't of the meets. and she came to law to speak people to me that it was so significant since history maybe it was to which could help her solid to room to create an order. so it's kind of contradictory approach seats, but nevertheless, right now to whitewashed everything. last week, your group published research showing that the war had divided rather than united

russians, and both sides had been radicalized by this conflict. what do you think will be the last thing? effects of this polarization now in russian society. yes, rushes please. sure, a good russians and bed rashness, as i said, so anybody who is against us is not our l. i. and get that sense. we can say both citizens for the 2nd shorts in russia, labeled as for that just simply people who are not trust war. see for top a story is and yes, so the problem is that pillars ation leads to radicalization of for years people who are supporting, put in as a party can fiercely right now and put into when a support ticket also became more sure. so not supporters. a few,

there are some sleep sites, different groups. as i said, even amongst supporters of protests, there are people who prefer, for instance, more hawkish approached as a war and the group for which prefers less focused approach. but generally speaking, this is please and it, it has linked to, let's say, hybrid civil war between the russian group. so population not physically is not visible as a physical city. real, real war between different groups who are fighting was it said, it is more about entities. so words are not supporters of put in this as again to the citizens to a 2nd sort of, i'm sorry to interrupt you,

but we're running out of time. i just want to, to get to a couple more points, you say that russia is at a dead end, a historical debt. and as you put it, what did you mean by that? you can move forward, can't move backwards. if, if it's true that it's to that and what happens next, destination must retrace itself. she will was, it must be, we'll see there are receiving is a k. but i feel as a sickness, fear assaulting him kind of a despair is unusual and people are very petticoat and another to guest new incentives for new development. we need a new government, let's say such a simple approach put in must disappear in a political way. i mean, a nother 2 can't and another to find an exit from mars is dead. and in order to get

your incentive for a new development for a modernization of this country. and one more problem is says a problem of collective responsibility for, for we are waiting for a little discussion civility. and we are involved in discussions right now about collecting responsibility. and it's difference with collective guilt are responsible for it. so we will be in a situation just like her german nation after the 2nd world war. what happens if putin can't claim victory? the if the reversals on the battlefield continue? will he pose more of a threat to the west if he wins, or if he loses? i think its substance li equal or she can be dangerous or being to terrace him. he can be danger bank in a, in a defense situation. but he's really could be corner,

it could be that's insulted by, by the said defeat. and of that sense, she could be more in montana jurors because he has a nuclear weapon. this is a main problem. but generally speaking, he can describe his defeat as a victory for the population and population will accept it again, the indifferently because here is effect from this war and people are waiting for the end of the story is the same time sandra sounds that it could be prolonged it's longer war and say, morally, ready to the problem cation of this disaster. very briefly, do you think he's just desperate to stay in power at all costs? yes, he's ready to stay in power until costs because again,

she considers himself as of this sort of his own mission and he must returns was grant greatness to russia. unfortunately, this is really sold psychology under kalashnikov. it's been good to have you on the program. thank you very much indeed. thank you. thank you so much. with

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