franklin, a already knows to take, told me about pickers, paralyzing your societies computers and governments that go crazy for your data. we explain how these technologies work, how they can russia has suffered key reversals on the battlefield. as cas forces have come to attacked and sees back the wide sway the territory. my guess this week from moscow is andre kalashnikov, senior fellow at the think tank, the county ag endowment for international peace as anger amounts among some of the put in supporters. how vulnerable is he? he's ready to stay in power at all costs, because he considers himself as a son, and this sort of has his own mission,

and he must returns his grant greatness to russia. but the conflict of split the russian society and radicalized both supporters and opponents of the war. how serious all the calls from local lawmakers for put in to resign and even face treason charges. and we're russia pose more of a threat to the west if it wins your war or lose it. yeah, and you can think of in moscow, welcome to come to the zone. thanks a lot. seems clear that ukraine has made some important military gains in recent days as things stand now, how big a set back of these ukranian advances for the kremlin? you know, it's, it's a hard question because i don't think that kremlin has as really answer to this counter offensive military answer. i mean, then political one and psychological in order in order to,

let's see, justify possible problems. as a beginning they said that this is regrouping for troops. not more but i think chrome is not ready to make any concessions in any diplomatic sense. and in the political sciences is ready for further war of attrition. it could be continued and the kremlin until now, next has this kind of resource. i've been primarily military resource. so this is to be continued. you expect marked escalation from the kremlin in response to ukrainian moves. i think it's possible as could be natural as for from criminal site, given the thinking it's very, very militarize. it's very aggressive and in that sense, i think they are pretty preparing right now. some see military got at the same

times they must find wars for different groups of for the population because there are lots of hawks among people are supporting, put him supporting of the war primarily and has problems was it was a support from, from just very group because amongst the portraits of perkins, there is a group of course and a group of dos from dos as a feel kind of authentic as they want to p stocks and vice versa. so pretty much described or military or sorry, this describes dissertation in proper words. but the total indifferent, so the population saves. so right now the problem put in so i can say that this is it could just suck impulse,

but very problematic situation. question i tell you from what you say, there will be people, even among the elite to asking themselves in fly demon putin is still up to the job . we have the chechen leader rams and cut their off who doesn't hide his anger. he said, if today or tomorrow, changes are not made in the conduct of the military operation, i'll be forced to go to the countries leadership to explain the situation on the ground. that's pretty direct and that's pretty insulting, isn't it? to the president. since he has to spend the fangs, it's got a full the stress that he's a soldier for him. then simply obeying him and she can implement any commands from kremlin. are those sickly. his he is such a sincere person. when he's describing the current situation, i think he will get some science command from kremlin to,

to give you to this topic because it's too sensitive for kremlin. this is an excess of one of the persons who are involved in this terrible disaster in this terrible conflict. ah, i don't think that could be serious. yes. yes, it is noticeable for a lot of people, but has the same tamp. time generally doesn't change the public opinion around doesn't change the situation and does not influence the military decisions. another people are responsible for a military answer to ukrainians. so it's symptomatic but it's still not so dangerous. so for put in, when we're talking about possible discontent inside 0 it's, i think we can a witness, different kind of just contents,

but people are trying to be in use is this silly because they care they afraid of their position and sizes, established rooms. we're also seeing for the 1st time political moves against the president from elected representatives will be at that local municipal level in both moscow and st. petersburg, public goals for him to resign. and in the case of st. petersburg called for him to face charges of treason. isn't it extraordinary? these moves on how serious do you think they are or how serious could these become? this is very interesting phenomenon because politically, it is not so important for kremlin. it is not a danger for kremlin of any kind. it's because municipal gypsies do not play any significant role in this political system. but at the same time,

it's symptomatic that people don't feel fear, mis situation, where they could, the persecutors from scandal letters and also mis fury. and the answer is very sultry and everyone who express, she's almost view on all the situation, could be prosecuted by and by the scientist in terms of the criminal code to administrative court. some places. but nevertheless, it was threat such prophetic from the situation. and then say, once openly, voluntarily express discontent was put in sessions. this is something you know, special from the sides of municipal deputies. and maybe this is soon you sign up from growing discontent in science,

not only lead butts inside the society as such because municipal differences closer to society than any kind of the mother state level for deputies, regional level or federal level. what happens if these actions spread to other municipal authorities or to moscow itself? how dangerous could that be for the president, the staples to the suppressed? and for the moment nobody pays a lot of attention treats safe disposable. that's all just people has done as it's kind of letters could be in trouble. ah, i'm afraid that it's going to spread. it's are all around the whole russian. in that case, yes, it's dangerous promot primarily not for put in bucks for deputies again, but it's really important sets civil society still here until society still

express and use not only using such tools come into the 3 sore throat casting because journalist but writing classroom to talk sure it is accusing. put him in a, in a state, sir. treason. this is an important sign. up till now. moscow has done everything. seems to have done everything to pretend that life is just the same as ever in russia, the mass funerals, no weeping mothers on television, the ballet and our proceedings are getting on the way and moscow museums galleries are open. the poppy boats going up and down the moscow river is this fictional normality about to come to a sudden end to think we'll see full scale mobilization now. yeah, this is the right term fiction on the mileage put in creates these impression then

the people are creating it specialists and portions in name big cities. ah. because for instance, have got in who's funnel ellis of his quiet kids a good say state manager osco must leaf. so normal life in order to be distracted from all this atrocities, some disaster is the grand france. and the red stepped from put aside, was not to announce general mil, military mobilization, military address, because it could provoke discontent among criminal costs. millions of people who are living in the big city or middle says they don't want to go to war. we can talk about, let's say college troops which are sitting there. holmes, watching tv ah, in different las supporting the special operation. but as the same time,

they don't think about those lean bullock into real war into trenches. and this is more for a poor population. poor groups of population for people from republics distance province. this could be soldiers and this is for so here up to tracks for this is a julie's in the in brains for, for russians, especially men, middle classes. here is one trip. i'm living my private life, as it was always, i am concentrating on not surviving as in other treacherous states, strick. so people put in initiate this war ortiz, he knows better. i will not pay too much attention to his arguments, but he is always right. i will support that's indifferently not fiercely so and put him. and it gives me an opportunity to concentrate on my own business on my

own problems and don't wait for any help for him from him. but it's quite whose if he doesn't and often to my problems. so it is useful for himself because she can continue this war and not paying too much attention not, not attracting too much attention to it because atrocities people are trying not to pay a lot of attention to bad news. want to be on societal for goodness. natalie of evil . and because of that they, they prefer to block bed information. and that is quite good for pretend right now. your one of the sharpest russian critics of the war in ukraine and that email putin, one of the sharpest critic, still writing and still in russia. do you not feel on the threat yourself

personally doing this? you know, there is such a special term scholar at risk. so who could say that them a scholar at risk? but there are very different reasons for different people to stay in russia or to leave russian. and i know a lot of my colleagues and friends for us to hear some of them of persecutes it's some of them are arrested for instance, 2 micro political scientists and the leticia. and then it goes by this only an administrator for persecution, for him or for this people, it's better to leave the russian and the case of persecution for any person here is better not to play this game with us for it is because it's dangerous runs a bunch of physical health and possible arrests, etc,

etc. but from the point of view, for real research, from the point of view of understanding what is happening here from the point of view of your own attitude towards this regime. this is quite important to be here. so this is my country, my country is not equal to put his country. and i prefer to be here because i don't feel and to get a guilt, so i don't feel any responsibility for put on the thrusters. so this is my truth. ah, but again, in some circumstances it's a bull to, to, to leave the country just like it was inevitable for primarily prominent journalists to leave russia in order to contribute information, real alternative information for the russian populations. they can do it from

inside. until now, i can broadcast and i can write, but it could finish in any moment. couldn't, doesn't scare you though, darcy, he's a real dick said we're who is sincerely assured that nobody can shut her. she is authority. that he, she has mission to create new silver and she knew greatness to russia and she must consolidate people around him. and people are not ready to be consolidated . they are simply national 3. she's come, come and i miss for that jumps of cetera. he's not the president of the whole russian handled rushed in that sense. ah, maybe he respects she respects his enemies, but it doesn't mean that they can be persecuted because of this respectable status

. so he says, sure is that he's doing arizona writes, you written at length about your country past, present future. but i was struck by how you recently connected the dots. russia you said, is i'm lucky with its future because it's on lucky with it's passed. it suggests your country is changed to what a violent history and can't find its way to breaking free from that. is that what you meant to convey? i mean, that's one of the grounds for consider geez, the glorious past and very specific interpretation of the history. which is really falsification for your own history because she takes dark pages this of this past and he is what way? fortune presents she's whitewash and cur. the stolen is science. ah, and in that sense historical policy for him, this is

a tool for gover. things discounts re ah, she craves false lawyer is fast and this is a ground for consolidating around him. is an inheritor of the grapes. so if you will take a real pass, you will, you should be ready for any kind of normal reading coast as fast. we can make conclusions from its best conclusions, horrible conclusions, but this is the ground for going somewhere for the future. just like just like it wasn't perestroika test we, when we, we became to to know something about ourselves, not or foster it was, it became an open window for the future for moving from a horrible past normal future to western eyes it and modernize it's russia right

now as a received slice of verse, so it's very important to recreate understanding of your own posts in cable to know and to admit that some pages in this past was horrible. were horrible. you said that put in whitewash is the style in this period now, but it wasn't always that way. 5 years ago, he stood by the so called wall of grief in moscow and said it was important to remember the repression that took place in soviet society. and now children are taught in your schools that the old soviet union didn't repress anybody. what changed putin do you think? i, i don't believe in the evolution of putting a few options in the year to sell them when she only inches

away her to power. i. comparison was muscle miscellany terms. if she can restore some to tell terry and features which were typically for the past. and he simply adapted to current circumstances from the beginning. he was inheritor of he else and he had to support some ideas about democracy. good relations was the rest of cetera, et cetera. but now he is absolutely sincere. he is free from politeness. he lost his shame. absolutely. he disrupted all the plans for the west. so he subsided, russia, he express content, was it? so for humor, repression was this is ruth,

she admits he is ready to say that there were repressions, but at the same time, ah, she can't of the needs. and she came to law to speak people to me that it was so significant since history. maybe it was ed to which could so help her stalin to rule to create an order. so it's kind of a contradictory approach seats. but nevertheless, right now, she whitewashed everything last week your group published research showing that the war had divided rather than united russians. and both sides had been radicalized by this conflict. what do you think will be the lasting effects of this polarization now, in russian society? yes, rushes fleets. i hear a good russians and bed rations,

as i said, so anybody who was against us is not our l. i and that sense we can say both citizens for the 2nd short and russia labeled for that just simply people who are not trust war, see for top of sorry, this and yes, the problem is the polarization leads to radicalization of for years people who are supporting put in as a party can fiercely right now and put into one of support, thinking also became more sure. so not supporters. a few. there are some sleep sites, different groups. as i said, even amongst supporters of portent. there are people who prefer presence more hawkish approached as a war as

a group for which prefers less focused approach. but generally speaking, this is please and it, it is living to, let's say, hybrid civil war between russian group. so the population not physically is not visible as a physical city, real, real war between different groups who are fighting with the shows or it said it is more about attitudes so where it's not support to support in this as again to the citizens to a 2nd sort just go from, i'm sorry to interrupt your book, we're running out of time. i just want to, to get to a couple more points. you say that russia is at a dead end, a historical debt, and as you put it, what did you mean by that?

car. com move forward can't move backwards. if, if it's true that it's, it's a dead end, what happens next? destination must retrace itself. she will was it. moscow will see that receipt is a k. but i feel as a set most fear assaulting him. and of a despair disillusion people were a petticoat and another 2 guest new incentives for new development. we need a new government, let's say such a simple approach put in must disappear in a political way. i mean, they know the to catch another to find a next it's from is dead ends in order to get you incentive for a new development for modernization of this country. one more problem is the problem of collective responsibility for, for we are waiting for a little discussion. civility. and we are involved in discussions right now about

collecting responsibility and it's difference with collective guilt, our responsible for it. so we will be in a situation just like her german nation after as the 2nd world war. what happens if put in can't claim victory the if the reversals on the battlefield continue. will he pose more of a threat to the west if he wins, or if he loses? i think its substance li equal or she can be dangerous or being too terrorist. and he can be dangerous being in a, in a defeat situation. but he's really could be corner at times. she could be that's insulted by, by the said defeat. in that sense. she could be more and more dangerous because

he has a nuclear weapon. this is a main problem. but generally speaking, he can describe his defeat as a victory for the population and population will accept it's again the indifferently because here is a fatty crumbs this war and people are waiting for for the end of the story. is the same time understand that it could be prolonged, it's prolonged war and say, morally ready to the promulgation of this disaster. very briefly, do you think he's just desperate to stay in power at all costs? yes, he's ready to stay in power at all costs, because again, she considers himself and this sort of his own mission, and he must returns as grant greatness to russia. unfortunately,

this is really sold psychology under kalashnikov. it's been good to have you on the program. thank you very much indeed. thank you. thank you so much. with

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w. ah. ah, this is d w. news live from berlin, ukraine's president strikes a defiant tone as he visits recapture territory. legendary lensky, thanks troops in the strategic city of is you. he says this country is moving in only one direction to all.