a reflection of a turbulent history. the cities, the mosaic of different people and languages are iran's mountains reveal unparalleled beauty. the scenery is magnificent and warm in arizona is exceptionally a special look at a special country. iran from above. start september 16th on d. w. russia has suffered key reversals on the battlefield as scarce forces have counter attacked and sees back a wide sway the territory. my guess this week from moscow is andre kalashnikov, senior fellow at the think tank. the carnegie endowment for international peace as anger mounts among some of vladimir putin supporters. how valuable is he?

he's ready to stay in power at all costs because she considers himself with and this has his own mission, and he must returns as great greatness to russia. but the conflict of split russian society and radicalized both supporters and opponents of the war. how serious are the calls from local lawmakers for putting to resign? the will face treason charges? and what russia pose more of a threat to the west if it wins your war, all lose it. andre collecting cough in moscow. welcome to conflict zone. thanks a lot. seems clear that ukraine has made some important military gains in recent days as things stand. now, how big a set back are these ukranian advances for the kremlin? i. it's

a hard question because i don't think that criminal has as really answer to this country offensive military answer. i mean, then political one and psychological in order not to let's see, justify possible problems for the beginning. they said that it was just as regrouping for troops, not more but i think chrome is not ready to make any concessions in any diplomatic sense. and in the political stance, it is ready for further war of attrition. it could be continued and the kremlin until now has this kind of resource. i've been primarily military resource. so this is to be continued. do you expect marked escalation from the kremlin in response to ukrainian moves? i think it's possible it could be natural as for from criminal site,

given the thinking it's very, very militarize. it's very aggressive. and in that sense, i think they are pretty preparing right now. some, some military got at the same times they must find wars for different groups of the population because there are a lot of hawks among people who are supporting put him supporting the war primarily and putting has problems was it was a support from, from his very group because amongst a portrait of futons there is a group of course and a group of dos group from dos as a she'll kind of authentic and they want to p stocks and vice versa. so pretty much described or military or sorry, this describes the situation improper, worse bad. so the total difference of the population saves. so right now,

put into problem pretense can say that this is going to, it could just suck impulse, but very problematic situation. pushing i tell you from what you say there will be people, even among the elite to asking themselves in fly demon putin is still up to the job . we have the chechen leader rams and cut off who doesn't hide his anger. he said, if today or tomorrow, changes are not made in the conduct of the military operation, i'll be forced to go to the countries leadership to explain the situation on the ground. that's pretty direct and that's pretty insulting, isn't it for the president? since he has to spend the fangs, it's got a full the stress that he's a soldier for him than simply obeying him. and she can implement any commands from kremlin or the sickly his. he is

such a sincere person when he's describing the current situation, i think you will guess some science of command from kremlin to, to do you to on this topic because it's too sensitive for kremlin. this is an excess of one of the persons who are involved in this terrible disaster in this terrible conflicts. i don't think that could be serious. yes. yes, it is noticeable for a lot of people. but as the same tamped time generally doesn't change. the public opinion around doesn't change the situation and does not influence the military decisions. another people are responsible for a military answer to ukraine's so it's symptomatic but it's

still not so dangerous. so for a protein, when i'm talking about what's in both discontent and science 0 it's i think we can witness different kind of just contents. but people are trying to be in youth is this elite because they care they afraid of their position and sizes, established rooms. we're also seeing for the 1st time political moves against the president from elected representatives will be at that local municipal level in both moscow in st. petersburg, public calls for him to resign. and in the case of st. petersburg called for him to face charges of treason. isn't it extraordinary? these moves on how serious do you think they are or how serious could these become? this is very interesting phenomenon because politically,

it is not so important for kremlin. it is not a danger for criminal of any kind. it's because municipal gypsies do not play any significant role as a political system. but at the same time, it's symptomatic that people don't feel fear the situation where they could, the persecutors from scandal, letters and those atmosphere in the answer is very sultry. and to everyone who express she is almost view on all the situation. could be prosecuted by and by the sources in terms of the criminal code or administrative cause in some places. but nevertheless, it was threat such prophetic from the situation and then say once openly, voluntarily express discontent was put in sessions. this is something you know,

special from the size of municipal deputies and maybe this is soon you sign up from growing discontent inside not only lead butts inside the society as such because municipal differences closer to society than any kind of the mother state level for deputies regional level or federal level, what happens if these actions spread to other municipal authorities or to moscow itself? how dangerous could that be for the president, the staples to the suppressed? and for the moment, nobody paid a lot of attention treats said just possible that all the people has done as it's kind of less could be in trouble. ah, i'm afraid that it's going to spread that are all around the whole russian. in that

case, yes, it's dangerous premier primarily not for put in but for deputies again, but it's, it's really important sets civil society still here until society still express and use not only using such tools coming to the streets or broadcasting because journalist but writing classrooms. so to top of sure, it is accusing, put in, in a, in a states treason. this is an important sign. up till now moscow has done everything. seems to have done everything to pretend that life is just the same as ever in russia, the mass funerals, no weeping mothers on television, the ballet and our proceedings are getting on the way and moscow museums galleries are open. the party boats going up and down the moscow river is this fictional

normality about to come to a sudden end to think we'll see the full scale mobilization now. yeah, this is the right term fiction on the mileage. put in creates these impression that people are creating needs specialists and persons in name big cities. ah, because for instance, have done in who is one of the ellis of his quiet kids a good say state manager osco must leaf. so normal life, in order to be distracted from all this atrocities some disaster is ukraine in france. and the rest from put aside was not to announce general mil, military mobilization, military address. because it could provoke discontent among criminal costs. millions of people who are living in the big cities or middle seaters, they don't want to go to war. we can talk about,

let's say college troops which are sitting their homes, what you to be indifferently supporting the special operation. but at the same time, they don't think about those lean bullets into real war into trenches. and this is more for a poor population for groups of population. for people from republics, distance provinces could be soldiers. this is for so here up to tracks. for this is a julie's in brains for, for russians, especially men, middle classes. here is one trip. i'm living my private life. as it was always, i am concentrating on not surviving as it in other trek as states trick. so people put in, initiated this war or cation knows better. i will not pay too much attention to his

arguments, but he is always right. i will support that indifferent plane not fiercely so and put him gives me an opportunity to concentrate on my own business on my own problems. i don't wait for any help for him from him, but it's quite who's that he doesn't and often to my problems. so it is useful for himself because she can continue this war and not paying for much attention. i'm not, not attracting too much attention to it because atrocities people are trying not to pay a lot of attention to bad news. want to be on society for goodness natalie's the center of evil. and because of that they, they prefer to block bed information. and it's quite good for pretend right

now. your one of the sharpest russian critics of the war in ukraine, and that even put in one of the sharpest critic, still writing and still in russia. do you not feel under threat yourself personally doing this? you know, there is such a special term scholar that risk, that so who could say that i am a scholar at risk but there are very different reasons for different people to stay in russia or to leave russian. and i know a lot of my colleagues and friends for us to hear some of them of persecutes it's some of them are arrested for instance, micro political scientists and the leticia. and then it goes by this only an administrator for persecution, for him or for this people is better to leave the russian and the case of

persecution for any person here is better not to play this game with us for it is because it's dangerous from the front of your physical health and possible arrests, etc, etc. but from the point of view, for real research, from a point of view of understanding what is happening here from the point of view of your own attitude towards this regime. this is quite important to be here. so this is my country. my country is not equal to put his country. and i prefer to be here because i don't feel and to get a guilt, so i don't feel any responsibility for putting the trust. so this is my truth. ah, but again, in some circumstances,

be noticeable to, to, to leave the country just like it was inevitable for primarily prominent journalists to leave russia in order to contribute information, real alternative information for the russian populations. they can do it from inside until now i can broadcast and i can write, but it could finish in any moment. couldn't, doesn't scare you though, does he? he is a real to say we're who is sincerely assures that nobody can shatter issues authority that he, she has mission to create new silver and she knew greatness to russia and she must consolidate people around him. and people are not ready to be consolidated . they are simply national through through, she's come, come and i miss for that cetera. he's not the president of the whole russian handled rushed in that sense. ah,

maybe he respects she respects his enemies, but it doesn't mean that they put them be persecuted because of this respectable status. so he says, sure is that he's doing arizona writes, you written at length about your country past, present future. but i was struck by how you recently connected the dots, russia you said, is i'm lucky with its future because it's on lucky with it's passed. it suggests your country is changed to what a violent history and can't find its way to breaking free from that. is that what you meant to convey? i mean, that's one of the grounds for put insidious gees the glorious past and very specific interpretation of the history. which is really falsification of your own

history because she takes dark pages this of this past and he is what, what fortune presents he's whitewash incur the stolen his time. ah, and in that sense, historical policy for him, this is a tool for govern things. this country ah, he craves false glory is fast and this is a ground for consolidating around him. is an inheritor of his grades. so if you feel take a real pass, you will, you should be ready for any kind of normal reading coast as fast. we can make conclusions from its best conclusions, horrible conclusions, but this is a ground for going somewhere for the future. just like just like it wasn't perestroika test we, when we we became to to

know something about ourselves. not our past. it was, it became an open window for the future for moving from a horrible past normal future to western eyes it and modernize it's russia right now as soon as ly subversion. so it's very important to recreate understanding of your own posts in cable to know and to admit that some pages in this past was horrible. were horrible. you said that put in whitewash is the style in this period now, but it wasn't always that way. 5 years ago, he stood by the so called wall of grief in moscow and said it was important to remember the repression that took place in soviet society. and now children are taught in your schools that the old soviet union didn't repress anybody. what

changed putin do you think i, i don't believe in the evolution of putting a few options in the year to solvent what he only akins his way to to power i. comparison was muscle miscellany, in terms of she can restore some to tell terry and features which were difficult for the past. and he simply adapted to current circumstances from the beginning. he was inheritor of he else, and he had to support some ideas about democracy. good relations with the rest of cetera, et cetera. but now he stops those a sincere he is free from politeness. he lost his shame. absolutely. she disrupted all the plans for the rest. so he subsided, russia,

he express content, was it? so for humor repressions, this is true. she admits he is ready to say that there were repressions. but at the same time, she can't of the needs. and she came to law to speak people to me that it was so significant since history. maybe it was to which could so help her stalin to rule to create an order. so it's kind of a contradictory approach seats. but nevertheless, right now to whitewashed everything last week your group published research showing that the war had divided rather than united russians. and both

sides had been radicalized by this conflict. what do you think will be the last thing, effects of this polarization now, in russian society? yes, russia splits sheer, a good russians and bed rations, as i said. so anybody who is against us is not our. ready l i and get that sense we can say both citizens for the 2nd shorts and russia label says for insurance for simply people who are not trust war. see for top a story is and yes, the problem is that the polarization leads to radicalization of for the us, people who are supporting, put in as a party can fiercely right now and put into when a support ticket also became more sure. so not supporters. if you,

there are some sleep, some sites, different groups. as i said, even amongst supporters of pretend there are people who prefer, for instance, more hawkish approached as a war and the group for which prefers less focused approach. but generally speaking, this is please and it, it has linked to, let's say, hybrid civil war between russian group. so the population not physically is not visible as a physical city, real, real war between different groups who are fighting with it said it is more about entities. so where it's not supporters of put in this as again to the citizens for a 2nd, sort of, i'm sorry to interrupt you,

but we're running out of time. i just want to get to a couple more points. you say that russia is at a dead end, a historical debt, and as you put it, what did you mean by that? can move forward can't move backwards. if, if it's true that it's, it's a dead end, what happens next? destination must retrace itself. she will was, it must be, we'll see that's a receipt as a k. but i feel as a set, most fear assaulting him and of a despair disillusion people were a petticoat and another 2 guest new incentives for new developments. we need a new government, let's say such a simple approach put in must disappear in a political way. i mean, they know that you can't find a next. it's from this dead ends in order to get your incentive for

a new development for modernization of this country. and one more problem is, so the problem of collective responsibility for, for we are waiting for a little discussion. civility and we are involved as discussions right now. well, collect your responsibility and it's difference with collective guilt. are responsible for it. so we will be in a situation just like her german nation after the 2nd world war. what happens if putin can't claim victory? the if the reversals on the battlefield continue? will he pose more of a threat to the west if he wins or if he loses? i think it's substance li equal. she can be dangerous being for terrorist, he can be danger of being in a, in a defense situation. but he was really could be a corner,

it could be that insulted by, by the said defeat. and of that sense, she could be more and more dangerous because he has a nuclear weapon. this is a main problem. but generally speaking, he can describe his defeat as a victory for the population and population will accept it's again the indifferently because here is a fatty crumbs this war and people are waiting for for the end of the story. is the same time understand that it could be prolonged, it's prolonged with war and say, morally, ready to the promulgation of his disaster. very briefly, do you think he's just desperate to stay in power at all costs? yes, he's ready to say in power and so costs because so again,

she considers himself as a son and this sort of his own mission, and he must returns as grant greatness to russia. unfortunately, this is really so this is he psychology under kalashnikov. it's been good to have you on the program. thank you very much indeed. thank you. thank you so much. blue blue with

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mediterranean meeting. people are hearing their dreams ready to eat journey this week. do you w ah, this is d w. news line from berlin and ukraine, fears more, revenge attacks after its forces make sweeping gangs. one of the country's biggest cities is at risk of flooding after a russian miss style damage is a reservoir. and while ukrainian troops celebrate their advance.