and alanine become a forgotten sil pioneer, leaving the fringe does and arnold fun. between hitler and hollywood. in 1932, they set out into the icy wilderness of greenland to create a life threatening project that became a major milestone in their lives. love, seduction and power ice cold passion starts october 8th on d. w. if it's with it's nothing short of a route. ukraine's 2 pronged counter offensive has expelled russian troops from a large wave of territory in the northeastern part of the country. at lightning speed. in under a week, the ukrainian forces regained more territory than russia captured in over 5 months blindsided and on the defensive. russia has responded by striking power plants

plunging much of the north east of the country into darkness. we're asking ukraine's battlefield gates put in under pressure. ah, hello and welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to agree to our guests than to lena fun. brideau is european. that business and finance correspondent for the economist magazine. your glow is foreign affairs correspondent at the german weekly did fight. and it's very great pleasure to welcome my colleague that him here as the path back. he works with d w's, russian language desk, and vladimir, the ukrainian offensive seems to have caught the russian forces leadership entirely

off guard. is that is, that should be, that's the case. it, these russians were dr. off guard indeed, but i would not talk about that like a turning point of disorder goes a 3rd to say, but it's huge success if you bring in the army. huge event, very important signal for the ukrainian politics and for the current population military. and what is the lightning speed of this campaign? tell us about the state of russian forces it, there was a lot about the state of the green forest source for green forest able to do for intelligence office near the foreign flooring weapons systems to push back russians from from huge territories. and they were completely surprised by surprised by that, but this possibility of that occurring in the army, vincent vendor, lena, this has been one of the biggest,

if not the biggest counter offensive since world war 2 in europe. the russian retreat has been chaotic. the russians have left ample supplies of both ammunition and military kit behind to the delight of ukrainian forces, of course, but expelling, occupying forces is one thing actually, retaining. newly one territory is another. do you think ukraine can do it? yeah, i'm not sure. and i'd be also careful not to make too much of to say it's a turning point. i don't think it is yet. i think it's comparable to, you know, at the very beginning brush i thought they could take here within days and then the whole thing will be over within a week. and there was a big defeat. now this is the 2nd big defeat off of this whole campaign. but russia still occupies about 20 percent of your current territory. so you know, we still have a long way to go and i think it will, you know, it'll become a war of attrition. sadly, i don't think that's changed. let me ask her to comment on exactly that president.

so lensky ukrainian president made a surprise visit to the city of him this week and said that his troops, quote what and quote a will press on, is the m, is viewed as a gateway to the industrial part of the east to the industrial region of don bass, which of course has been the main focus of russia's ambitions. would you say that the ukrainians have a good chance of building on the momentum to actually make real in roads there? i think so, jim is a very important logistical hub for defenders. it used to be one for the aggressors . and this is, this is a major step for, for them, but also the appearance of lensky on seen contrast that with fulton basically sitting in a bunker all the time. and that's, that's such

a different way of, you know, presenting your case to the world public that i think this also makes, makes a huge difference also for ukrainians and for, for the spirit of the defenders they're letting me do you think put into aims for the dumbass are doomed. know, i would hope yes, but i'm afraid not, not yet because it's just one step or i'm it was out on this very long corps, and we would not expect that the war is over in the next weeks. saw the russian government and the russians divestment and president burn himself, communicating with george express, spar berson and moscow communicating even for that of their russian real rush. i will follow the goal set for the specially military operations. are the russians, doesn't that or didn't give up? the goals which are removing of the ukrainian government and dennis, if occasion so called in if that occasion of the ukraine, the destruction of their civil and military infrastructure is going on. as we see

after the counter emphasis in cardiff origin. russia struck the power lines, russell struck them right. so it's the horror is going on. and the goals are the same. still the same. and let's say drill a bit deeper on that and take a closer look at a counter offensive. it stunned. not only russian forces and politicians, but also western military experts, shattered russian tanks and positions. they testified the force of the ukrainian attack, but also to the element of surprise in the rapid advances with this who keeps troops recaptured, huge sections of territory in east, in ukraine. within a short period of time, the ukrainian president currently speaks of more than 6000 square kilometers. according to military experts,

ukrainian territorial gains thus exceed those of the russians for 5 months in less than a week. on the one hand, the counter offensive testifies to the military competence of the ukrainians and the effectiveness of western weapons systems. but it also highlights the desolate state of the russian military. moscow, on the other hand, speaks only of regrouping its troops to reinforce its units in that, in that region. but observe is now even no longer rule out a rapid collapse of the russian war machine, or the recent successes of the ukrainian military, the long for turning point in this. wow. yeah, let me put that question straight away to you because we've heard both the other guest say it's not a turning point. how do you say? well, it's militarily, it might not be the turning point of the war, but it's very important because it's the 1st time we've had good news from the battlefield in very many months. and it's very important for the ukrainians going

into that winter. that will be very hard for them all for europeans, but for the ukraine's it will be very hard and to, to make sure that western support will not dry up. it's very important for them to present these successes now. so i think in that sense it might be not a turning point, but a very important point in the campaign. i want to talk a little bit about before we come to the west, i want to talk a little bit about what all this means for letting me put it in. and interestingly enough, since this counter offensive vladimir, there has been no word. the criticism of putin at home, as well as the broad, of course, but tell us a little bit about the voices you're hearing at home in russia was remarkable. i mean, the news of the dozens of small dip, which is a very small russian opposition, politicians and most of them 1st before demanding the resentment of booting. it's

not really new, it's very gross because people, but this is not new. what's really new is that voice from the line from the, from the really me, the, to the hard line are from runs on color. if the president of just now who is demanding the rethinking of the russian military strategy in the ukraine and who it was, it will even talking about visiting moscow and talking to the leadership of the russian military by himself. this is very important science of the, of the parts of the russian military establishment of the part of russian hotline and not being kept with granite pole. and it's very strong signals on the, on the right side, the nation. what would you expect it to mean for vladimir putin? how would you expect him to react? i would be surprised to the more that is not escalating the situation for you today . i'm not sure in which form it will be happening, but it will be the next step of escalation, the worse i would expect. and lena,

would you agree with that assessment? sadly, yes, and we've already seen it. you know, he's the russians have bombarded critical infrastructure or power stations, a damn. you know, this is very painful for the civilian population. so in some ways the escalations over the started, we'll come back to that as well in a, in a moment. but your, let me ask you about your assessment of the political situation in russia. your paper this week published an opinion piece by the russian historian, historian vladimir, kara mercer who reminds us that in the past political upheaval in russia often came with stunning speed. and he predicts that could happen again. should the west start preparing for a rush when it put in? well, how do you prepare for that situation? i mean it's, it's unforeseeable because this person has been in charge for such a long time for,

for 20 years. no more than 20 years. but it's true that a military defeat has brought sweeping change in russia many times. i mean, we seen it after the defeat in afghanistan. it opened you possibilities for the opposition, but also for opposition within the systems to come up and try something else. if it's going to be the hard liners the nationalist that 30 minute just mentioned, we don't know. it doesn't have to be a turn of the better. yes, absolutely. i have grown up in the soviet union in the were and i'm going to stand with elephant in the room. no one was talking about this openly by this kind of people not being happy with the government and on different levels was supported by the war. and i'm going to stand. it was a lot of one of the key factors in the soft destruction of the soviet union. so as

to the risks of the warranty, or claim to be, to inflict this kind of self destruction in the russian. but it's, it's in the russian society because people at some point, this feeling of the people not being happy with what's going on in the country. and they cannot fix it on the war on the politics and so in. but this general feeling of not being keeping is increasing the historian that i mentioned, vladimir current was a, it says in this article at the collapse of proteins regime is a question, not as if, but when can you wager any kind of estimate of what a pu post protein ration might look like what direction it can be done already told it is the so much unknowns and long if you look back at the russian history, every previous russian leader was followed by someone by

a very surprise. so no one was expecting gorbachev appearing, no one was expecting yates, and the bearing and no one was expecting to put him appearing. so the next one state leader would be someone i would expect who is not expected right now. we know the name of the person who does it will be someone from the actual establishment i would expect. that would be not someone from the marson from foreign country, but it's the name will be surprised. vendor lena, coming back to the, the effects on the war. there's been some rising concern here in germany and elsewhere in the west. that a putin with his back to the wall might be more likely to escalate, as you have indicated, possibly including with tactical nuclear weapons. is that a serious risk? you think? i do think it's a risk, you know, we cannot dis, excluded. we cannot say it won't happen, but put in his own way of thinking has so far been very rational in his, you know,

considering his worldview. and i think in that sense, if we could think he's, he's acting rationally it's, it's unlikely that he will go us process. certainly just one point put an order in politics, political system, us completely thinking outside of the box. so what me expect, and the rest is not always what's happening in russia and put in is a man of the big surprise. a source is open and often make things to which no one expects from him. and we have so brace from orn surprises when surprise he did not deliver in this week. there was a chance or sholtes is request that putin withdraw the troops from ukraine in a telephone call put in, made it very clear that he has no regard to regrets. whatsoever about the invasion

and would do it all over again. would you say the chance of schultz was right to give diplomacy a chance at this moment in time? and where do you think things could go from here? i think so, it's right to make these calls. i mean, no surprises in the answer put in gave, obviously, but it's important for also a domestic reason for shorts. he has to make clear to the german public that he's trying everything, especially if we expect. and i do expect that we will have to send more heavy weapons at some point. and then being able to say, look, i tried everything, i talked to him, i presented my case and he wouldn't, he wouldn't answer. so it is a very is it is a better position to escalate on in terms of weapons

those repeated attacks on ukrainian infrastructure that vendor event, alina mentioned earlier, including most recently on ukraine's water supply, indicate that putin is hardly ready to call it quits. we have this report in car keys and other ukranian cities in the east of the country. the russians caused a black house. according to our witness reports, the result widespread power outages, plunging and taya areas and millions of civilians into darkness. without light, without heat, without internet and even without water. as pumps run on electricity and in europe to like here and leal france, people are trying to prepare for a possible blackout as a result of the russian energy war with energy saving measures and further safety precautions ahead of the upcoming winter. but energy prices, the climbing to ever new dizzying heights. for many consumers and businesses,

the situation is becoming increasingly threatening, even without a blackout. how well is europe prepared for this winter? and i'll put that question straight away to a vendor lina, but i'm going to broaden it out a bit and ask you how well prepared you think europe is to stay the course or so in terms of support for ukraine. if the russian energy war on the west does turn things dark and cold, here as wells in ukraine, i think europe is relatively well prepared and we will get through this winter. let me just start with saying that in germany, gas storage facilities are pretty much full. i mean, much fuller than we expected them to be at this point. the industry, for instance, in germany, in other countries, shown that they can save quite a lot of energy, much more than they thought individuals. we are all, you know, we're all supposed to save energy and we can do, we can do even more. it'll be tough. it will for sure be tough, but i don't,

i don't even think there'd be gas rationing. it depends. of course, how cold the winter will be and that's something we don't know. but let's assume it's a, it's a normal winter in a normal temperatures. we will be okay, it won't be easy, but we'll be okay. let him in a central question that has a rig. and also due to this counter offensive, is whether germany will sustain its military support for ukraine. germany is now under increasing pressure once again to deliver more and heavier weapons to ukraine . but russia's ambassador to germany said this week that if anything germany has done way too much. and in fact, he used the term red line to saying that germany's support to date has already crossed a red line. what is he trying to say with that? is that simply a rhetorical device? or could it mean that russia is aiming to punish germany with some additional regard north, yet because we don't know if it be any bly calling from german inflicted from

outside. i could not exclude this possibility of such errands and on the german soil, which is the russian number. so, so using the word red line, it's germany is now in from a russian part of you as a part of the conflict, the part of the floor on the side of the ukraine as a whole vest on board the whole night or in the united states. because maybe in the united states, in germany, delivering grievance to the ukraine, make him able to claim to push russia back. so it's not the best on war outside of this conflict. and it's like war between russia middle crane from the russian point of view. it's a war between russia and the rest of the world, of the rest liberal democratic board, united and then a thought, you know, european union on your quote. in fact, u. s. military advisors are said to have played a key strategic role working with ukraine to design this counter offensive. your let me ask you about something that chats a shots

a said this week. he said he again rejected requests that germany send it's martyr . and leopard battle tanks and said in fact german, these for high performance weapons that it has ready scent has been very, very helpful on the battle field. is his defensiveness on this point? is it really justified or do you think that germany could and should do more right now? i think we could do more and i think chancellor schools could build on what he stated that the weapons we sent really make a difference on the battlefield. so it, there are even more lethal than the ones that are asked for now. the martyrs said, basically, infantry fighting vehicles with small canons mounted on top. they're not as little

as the punter whole bits of 2000 we already delivered. so i don't see why saying we already sent weapons and, and now we're going to go slow, makes really sense. and the, the argument that we, we are not going to go alone is valid, but it doesn't have to be us going alone. we can take the initiative and bring along nato partners so, and i think that's what the us also wants and us in this phase of the war. that's how i understand the american ambassador saying it's a sovereign decision by germany. just don't wait for us to make a decision. if you look at per capita contributions to ukraine, germany of course, is more populous than many other european countries. it's also an industrial power house. and yet its contributions for significantly short of what

a number of other countries have done than to lena. that's right. i mean, francis, poland has done much more than germany and, and other countries to the baltic states. but germany is sort of in the middle, you know, even considering its size, its strength, its, its population. america, of course, has done much, much more. so i don't think, jem, this done so badly. and, and one thing to emily sent, which is enormously useful and doesn't really get a lot of that isn't not mentioned a lot as iris t, it's basically like the israeli dome. and so it's, it's, it's very radical. doesn't show missile defense here. and it's something the bonus there kind of because it's so pricey, but we sent it to germany, sent it to ukraine. so i think germany sometimes also under playing a little bit how much of it is doing. so i'm going to have a huge transformation and the public opinion in the last 6 months, in terms of robin delivery to the growing for the conflict on. and i would not compare overspending, spoke with baltic stories by pulling them, by the way. they have completely different story of relationships. historically,

poland and baltic states to russia as germany, a pollution of baltic states are not through kind of put sophistic, like in germany. there isn't a whole bunch broad concerns in the society like in germany about but to susan and this is a huge factor in the most to come in foreign politics in germany. nonetheless, there is a lot of concern in this country. i mentioned germany being an industrial power house. well after world war 2, the u. s. secretary of treasury who was a hard line anti german proposed to plan that would have seen the complete de industrialization of jeremy so that it could never wage war again. and that word is now being used here by citizens and media who say that perhaps putin will achieve was what morgan thought didn't. is that a true risk vend, alina? i've just written about this for the economist, and it's, it's more cost, revenge. and it's, it's not a risk that mr. morgan towns plans to really completely the industrialized germany

and he wrote a book, german is our problem. and 1945. that will not happen, but some companies will go under and some companies will go abroad. so certain, you know, small scale de industrialization is a real risk and that's why people are so worried about it. you're the government doing enough toward that off? well, they're trying, i think we haven't seen the end of it. i see the measures that have been taken are mostly directed at consumers at the moment and individual households to shield them from the consequences of this economic warfare. much more will have to be done for companies and what but, but germany is still in a good position to do this. so i'm not defeatist. let me come back to our title law before we end the show. as you remember, ukraine's battlefield gains put in under pressure is our title. let me ask all of

you very briefly. as you look ahead now after this counter offensive, are you more hopeful that the end of this war is in sight? vladimir? no, not at all. the voices, yukon fender lena. sadly i'm, i'm with love me at that that i think there will be escalation, but i am more hopeful about the strength of the ukrainian military. it's, it's totally impressive what they've shown us here and more helpful. i think you're crank, can sure up more support that way and i'm very hopeful that something will change, but also on russia in the debate about the war. thank you very much to all of you for being with us today. and thanks to all of you in our audience, for tune again, see you soon. bye with

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mm. ah, ah ah, this is d w. news line from berlin. you credit authority cyber found mass graves outside the city of is you, which was liberated from russian forces 6 days ago. president, florida, that excuse us, russia must be held responsible for leaving behind the trial of death leave. while the brushing president had lit for the key.