sounds like utopia, but for many scientists, it's a goal making human a milky way species, leaving us to well beyond. in 30 minutes on d w. they will make agenda love via banning thing away. but i'm not going to have my own call. everyone with later holes and every day getting you ready to meet the gym and then join me. rachel stuart on the w a year of taliban rule in afghanistan and the country is on its knees. un experts of highlighted extrajudicial killings, kidnapping, and staggering repression of women and girls. all this and the fastest meltdown of a country's economy in modern times, with millions at risk of hunger and starvation. my guess this week is how seen us

off the former minister in the last half can government swept aside by the taliban . she fled in the chaos and panic of the takeover. and she joined me in london as a refugee. though she peal country was betrayed by the west. it was a decision off the international community. they came together, they left to get the weird as a valid fund. sam, despite all the human rights abuses, is there any alternative to engaging with the taliban? should the international community recognize them and release the countries frozen funds? what would it take for her to consider going home? i see nathan, welcome to complex one. thank you very much for the opportunity. when you look back at the fear and terror that's gripped cobble last august, august, last year, when you escaped. what images come back to you from that time?

and sir tentative horror and expected issues. people without any vision. without any err, assurity confused. fair noises of gan children crying mothers carrying out their children paper lying on the road close to the airport. unforgettable scenes. very and forget. i think never, never, even now when i imagine it, i re come shocked for

a very little time and i think how hard human beings can be. how tough to survive through that kind of a tie. up until the last minute you didn't know whether you were going to survive. did you? did you think you might diver at the airport in the chaos? ah, i did. in fact, at the beginning, i was expecting what we were hearing. that things have changed so that is why i did not decide to leave on the 15th of august. when you say things have changed what things that the taliban were different. that's what we have been hearing. that's what we have been hearing that taliban have checks and balances. and fortunately they did not on the change, not only had change, but they had become far, far different and inconsiderate than before. over the last year,

the u. n. has documented persistent allegations of extra judicial killings, disappearances, arbitrary detention torture by the taliban. are they in fact more brutal and more cruel than they used to be? i think they're they are due to their analysis and due to their reports due to the communication that i have from, from the women more specific to the women who have been targeted most seriously is the un human rights office put it recently. nowhere else in the world has there been as widespread, systematic and all encompassing an attack on the rights of women and girls. every aspect of their life is being restricted under the guise of morality. you said last year, african women will fight for their country until the last drop of blood. now,

how do they fight that? that's what i say. how do they fight that treatment from the taliban? they fight like the way today. you see me in front of yourself talking about it. they fight like the way they are presently. with the closed schools, giving hope to the girls who are in the 2nd grade school. he quit school secret schools. they are fighting with the writings, which they are doing through communication with their allies like us. they fight through still taking their courage and knowing that they will be killed. they will be damaged, they will be hurt. standing for a demonstration, they are really fighting it. and i'm sure we will fight it again once again. we will all fight it till the last drop of our black, 5 separate us administrations failed to defeat the taliban militarily on the

battlefield or change their ideology. what makes you think that you can do any better than that? i think no one tried ever to know the reality on the drought into really put a very clear framework of what is solid bonds definition of a slow. what is darla, bonds? vengeance for women. are the african women, the only women in islam ec society so so they can really compare with the other islamic countries in see today the countries in our region are announcing the female pilots. whereas in afghanistan, in the last 20 years, we had all those initiatives which today some of the countries are announcing as an achievement, being a miss lamb,

it can't. but is any of that going to make a difference to the taliban? that going to change their behavior? i think caliber, i have to consider again, the re in vision, in definition off as long. it's not what to beefy, but it's what in the ality, the definition of islam it and once they consider that, definitely it has to change. i will not have, they will change. it has to change, they must change their. we've been seeing reports that may be in their ranks. people are not in agreement with the leadership about particularly about girls in education, secondary schools for girls. a lot of them would like to see go studying in secondary schools. do you believe that there are different opinions within the movement within the taliban movement? totally agree. because just last week we heard that and one of the provinces,

and in course the people have stood in, they had urge to open schools and they also in communication with the director. they opened the school, but again there was a command for them to close the school. so there is a difference of opinion within the defend group. it's not on the, on this within different structures, definitions and ideas. they are not at a status where they define the structure at one level, you feel betrayed by the west. by america. it was rather a hasty decision. things could have changed far better if it would have been considered thoughtful and very seriously, and cautiously thought about how the people was lot would believe harmed from this decision. the international community had been inconsiderate in the decision that

they took, they took where the hasty departure a very hasty departure. but didn't you know when the deal was signed? because of the deal that donald trump timed with the taliban didn't contain any guarantees of rights for the african people did. in fact, the whole deal was negotiated over your head. wasn't it exact that no one was in caught, no one was aware of what the deal was in. that is why the question comes that. who is responsible for that? because as a piece, building person as a piece building stood it. i think all the relevant stakeholders have to be involved when a piece deal is made. it was not the case in the us. you heard america's reasons for leaving the u. s. and his allies gave you 20 years,

the lives of the soldiers. they gave you the and know how the skills schooling for girls of rights based system that has now been trashed by the taliban. isn't it true that the west gave you a big chance? could you have made more of that chance in the 20 years that they were there? i think it was not only a scanner con who was given the chance because it was a decision off the international community. they came together. they left to get. now when does the gala fan sound? what was of gallus thought or decides if action which they needed to take. and that is what they have been trying to say. and they have been easily trying to illustrate and say that what is the people off of scanning idea, what is it that they want to pay?

so that is why the decision, what not was not a decision. the decision which was taken was the international community. this decision that they left after pumping in and billions of dollars, some of which we use productively in the country, but huge sums was siphoned off. the warlords and corrupt officials went huge sums went missing. i, i won't say that it's not true. it may be true, but who has really monitored? where has those piles in piles, and millions and millions have really gone. who has really seen other port which has come inside afghanistan in how has it gone outside of governance? where is the real proof that we have that didn't you see. ready my colleagues in government and you see big houses, big cars and juicy evidence of money that they could not earn legitimately. of

course i have seen, but it was not only them, there were groups who were supporting them because within a system and then specifically the international uh system. definitely there is a group like them who support them. how do they move forward if they were not supported? you said recently, what have we done to deserve this? what happened to afghanistan? what could afghans have done differently that might've avoided what happened to them? to be very honest at the very local level, at the very public living as someone who has started some of the very grass root struggle till being a member of the cabinet. the people off of damage sacrifice the people off of dana, sand, dedicated, be alive, their time, the talent they are you year women,

they're girls. they could not have done far what they have done to day. so that is why i had said it, and i will say that the people off of gunners on did not deserve what happened to the people. every one had a small little life. every one had a small little house. everyone had a small little earning. now, how much are, how many or what rough of the percentage of the people of color would have been evacuated? so 5 percent, 10 percent, 20 percent, maximum. 25 percent. what about the rest of the 75? first. look at what disaster cove it economical crisis. natural disasters have brought. why had not the international community been considered about the lord of refuge? who would like to leave their country known?

i would never like to leave my fatty very simple simple tent, which was my own self unless i had to unless it was a matter of life and death at least, or unless it was a matter of living for leaving. for the same, like so many the people of afghanistan could have done might have had done more than what, but in this is what i'm saying. as public you said recently the world has forgotten afghanistan. you were quoted earlier saying that, but that's not really true, is it? i mean, humanitarian agencies in the us already stretched of work tirelessly to bring whatever release they can to the country, haven't they? but this has been one of the worst economic meltdowns in history. did you have any idea how bad the situation was going to get? he cannot medically. i had in that is why i said that the world has

a forgotten of kindness and i am saying it because it's not only a matter of humanitarian 8. yes, i was saying humanity and aid till the 1st the 2 for 5 months, but it has been a year now. so what is the midterm in long term program, but the world has reached 80000000 people, almost half the population with food cash, livelihood support. the organization works in all 34 provinces and has distributed food to 800 distribution centers. that's not nothing. that's not forgetting afghanistan, and that's not in that region that they can go to family. that's how many families have the support that i'm in contact with families who at night they dip the dried bread in water and in the morning they feed their children. so

that is why i am saying that it's not only giving their dad has to be midterm in long term program. in that was what we were planning so that the country could at least take a hold on dance of themselves. the systems had been developed in a small little initiative had, have been started in today. they are all stopped. so what are the people doing now? they are surviving. they are waiting still. ok w if you will give us biscuits. this country will give us shelter, but now do we want all the time of gamma sound enough? can people to be a burden on the world? it will let me ask you this. so thought no country has given the taliban formal recognition because nobody seems to trust them. should they not be recognised internationally? wouldn't that be a start? isn't that the minimum necessary to keep the door open with the talent?

for me, this is not important that carla barley recognized or not for me. what is important, it's public. well, let me put, let me put the clergy one part and is that how much access to those widows who have lost more specifically in the last 20 years? they are male members. how many families in the last 20 years do we have that they are led by females? what is that they need? what is that that they need? and how can we provide that? this is what is a priority for me as a women and as a women who have been a part of them in who knows their problems and difficult. how important is it that kind of stands reserves which were frozen in the west, are unfrozen and put to use within the country? we're talking about $9000000000.00. 71 leading economists have said these funds are

critical to the functioning of the african economy. quick question, should they give the money to the taliban or not on condition clairmont monitoring account, mutual accountability in last result and in fact, what is it with the public will get? we give a 9000000 on the talk when you go and ask a women in a village even 20 when they gave even $20.00. they have system piles and piles of things to us. so what is the gap between the $90.00 and $20.00? clear monetary, mutual accountability and follow, that is what is required. you can bypass the telephone, can you otherwise no a get through the country director for the international rescue committee. vicki akin said the only solution to this crisis is to find

a way to make the economy function that requires cooperating, or at least engaging with the taliban. she right. of course engaging with the taliban, but we have to know because where there is a dispute, you talk for me engaging is talking engaging is dialogue. you really have to know in talk what the knot is for in order to open that. you have to find ways and strategies to open it. so engaging doesn't mean that you have to directly give the money, but you really have to know, how would this money be very efficiently used for the people and for that support of the people? not all last guns. are anti taliban ave to the extent that the taliban has cracked down on corruption, for instance, among some groups that's been welcomed, hasn't it? a u. k. foreign office study which was released in july calculated the taliban had,

as they put it drastically reduced up to $1400000000.00 in bribes given and taken every year just just on cross border trade. it in something good and course they did something good. but where did it go and how is it spent further? who has that report? how has it helped people? how has it more specific any help with that is what i was asked next. and that's the next priority. is it? how does work that is been expired as soon as you are a refugee for the 2nd time in your life? your parents fed the soviet invasion in the 1980 s. when you were a small child, you fled again with your family a year ago. how have those experiences shaped you more for more strong and more ready to be challenging

any kind of challenge which will try to demolish my nation and my i did. what would you do differently as a politician if you were to return home as a politician, i was never a politician. your minister, you afternoon when i was a minister because i saw that within that context, within that time frame, that was a golden opportunity for a women to be at a decision making an executive position. because i had advocated for the last 15 years, and that was the right time to execute all that advocacy initiative. as a women minister and in the one year that i was, we had quite quite great achievement to see women getting to that point. again.

of course i hope we will have challenges, but i'm hopeful i will never see. i don't see the day i say that i don't see it means that is the last day of my life. i'm always hopeful you believe one day you'll go back to afghanistan. don't you what, what has to happen before you will make that journey? what has to change in the country before you go back there should be a clear foreign policy off of ganeth on for women, women participation and their participation in the shipment. not only that, but the international foreign policies have to be very clear and honest and dedicated to the participation of women in africa, which on to national firm policies, which it's a national firm who's, who's from the country who have been in a kind of fun and they were supporting gender equality, diversity,

women empowerment they keep talking about. yes ma'am. now i need to talk to, to walk the talk. that is what i mean because i was about to change. the taliban will change. we discussed this earlier. you think the taliban will change, but they'll take that time over it. one thing they cannot chance to calibrate. but they can make sure that carla know that this is a priority for them to move forward. because i've got a son, is it a poor country? they can not move ahead without the international community support. so whenever it comes, they have to say this is a priority, and the definition should be given by the woman of the scanner. we will define our role, but it's only this faith. for example, in the last 20 years, as i said earlier, and again, i will see that in the last 7 years, it was a golden opportunity for the woman of kindness. and why? because from a very small little space,

which is our mother's name in an identity card, to a women becoming a deputy governor in 34 provinces, which is the local politics. for the 1st time the women had that opportunity. and that was in order to gather all the social and analyze all the social issues of women in, connected back with the policy and define it under the name of activity project program in order to help women men cannot do that. to me this with, with, with all the tribal issues in afghanistan, the different fiefdoms and warlords. the endemic corruption is afghanistan really govern the bull by democratic means of course. but if they are more cautious, i belong to a tribal family. i belong to a grassroots family. i'm a person who was the 1st woman in my family who went to farmer school in there are

many girls who are following me in people like me. we don't come from somewhere else. we come from a kind of even like we've seen week haven't a government has always been weak enough kind of stuck i think politically. and there has been not a clear definition of politics as a civil society act. i don't know what that means, or do you mean it's like we do politics for people. if there is no support of politics we have, there is no help. if there is no benefit of politics to people. politics says in me, and if people are split, what then? people are split everywhere. it's not only enough canister. everywhere, people are everywhere. so government come how to, how you got him to work. definitely. if they are, if the cautious,

if the i consider it, if they, they find the very real approach to connect with people. i've seen assessing. been good to have you on the program. thank you. thank you. thank you very. ah ah, with

who says we will colonize the moon. then most people may know of a distant blue model. sounds like utopia. but for many scientists,

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