taxes the right to loving taxes and the obligation to pay them both inherent in the sovereignty of relation states and their citizens. but what happens when the power of taxation is undermined? he won't pay taxation into politics. starts october 21st on d, w no sooner had president putin annexed for regions in ukraine, and his troops were forced to flee from a key city in one of them. and russian tank defences were breached in another. the humiliation wasn't lost on russian commanders with the chechen warlord rams unclear of calling from moscow to use tactical nuclear weapons. my guest this week from key f is e horseshoe cra,

deputy head of the presidential administration. has ukraine backed mister putin into a corner where he might use his nuclear arsenal? you may not have any hobbit battlefield instruments to, to withstand it. you graham accompanied bosses. so i think you grant is taking this seriously and the international community has to take it seriously. for now, though, what has changed the fortunes of ukraine's armed forces? i'm candidate, keep up the momentum. how do they treat suspected ukrainian collaborators? and why is the door to piece talks still firmly, shut your job for? welcome to conflicts on thank you for having in your forces have had a spectacular month. 6000 square kilometers, sees back from russia. you've just taken one of their key supply hubs and done yet, can you've broken through in the south in cash sun, how important are these latest successes to you both on the battlefield and

psychologically wow, thank you for this question. really. it is very important on the battlefield. i mean, if you take the 1st 30 days and months of war 1000000, the world didn't believe that you created, it will not be able to even to withstand the war. and then to have any major success on the territory of my country. but for all this, more than 7 months of the war, we proven to our cell 1st of all, and then to the world community that we cannot only find with the rush and aggression. we can wish that this russian, or we can stop this russian aggression of this country. but we can counter to have counter advances and definitely we will, we will have all our territories back. so that is why it is important that we have this content. bunch of numerous directions, we have very good advances, something hockey area, almost all the region of heart you. oh bless, is liberated by ukrainian armed forces. really, we have good advanced into doing this camera. remember,

russia wanted to capture all the la guns and in that region, immediately from the beginning of the open war because they were trying to capture it from 2014. not any success is happening for them on that one is going to look on screen and the same. you are a challenge, so i don't care. so, and it's also, i was, i had wanted, it's more slowly than the kind of give region, but it's very important. so it's really very important. think for the armed force and really right, you know, morally more and it's important for our people for each and every ukrainian citizens living in ukraine are having to leave you a grain of force unit of time when the worst. but all of us treasures ukrainian people, ukrainian government, ah, you know, helping each of each of us in our own mentor to bring this victory and really what is doing what is done by the office of ukraine is really at my thought of the grain . but i think in all the world, mr. jessica, what's brought about this stunning change in your fortunes on the battlefield?

and can you maintain the momentum of 1st of all, once again is to the strengthened mastery of fried green and armed forces. but secondly, this is due to the equipment, ammunition and weapons, which is coming into more bigger quantities from our well western partners at most of the countries all to which we apply to the world to bring us additional heavy weaponry, additional artillery additional tanks. and i'm with the, it goes additional multi loans, rocket systems. i'm now starting to help us. and this is what really shows. and this is what really helps to our success. because, you know, you cannot find only with a, with a, with him, with a gun. you'll fight the more than war and who made the counter bottles with the more than western equipment. yes, we've got some equipment and heritage from the soviet union. but now we proved again to us and to all of the world that you crank and forces could muster them

order and western nature equipment. and we can fight with it and we can blend with it. so yes, i think we'll, we'll be able to get the momentum. it was very important for us to stop this company must be for the winter time, because we'll get as much more easier to make a count of the inventors. judy, the if the, the, the time was a force her to do this in the winter time is it's much easier to fortify, to defend. so that's why i'm closest my, everything possible to, to, again, is momentum and to move forward. how do you expect the kremlin to react to your advances? i'm assuming you don't expect protein to accept these defeats shrugged his shoulders and walk away. well, i think well well well see i didn't, i didn't have an absence of success on the battlefield day. you know, if he's a armed forces definite and not the 2nd strongest army into rural se portrayed, he's armed forces. probably he had the bad reports from his generals,

about the strength to cross and armed forces. but as a reaction to these success will be bringing forces he probably, you know, i had to use this several instruments. one of them will deal with those sham referendums, which he orchestrated on the part of the cranium territory, which is now temporarily occupied. so he's trying to now to make an attempt it annexations and not attempted to like station the same way he did an intervention. 14. that's why, very important now not to repeat the mistakes of 2014, when the world community international partners will be great. that be very honest overslept, are the sections which, which in was doing. so really, this is a very good tie. went all international community react negatively to lease some referenda. and these attempted annexations wasn't their position and different formats at different levels, and also helping ukraine to fight the russian aggressor isn't the danger that you push him into a corner and force him to react. he has, after all,

weapon systems that you don't have. i'm talking about nuclear weapons. how do you assess the chance of him using at least battle field nuclear weapons, especially if you keep beating him on the battlefield. hello, this is not the 1st time in doing this open war. when he black males, all of us, not only great all the world with it, with a nuclear weapon or early with chemical and biological weapons. well, i mean, don't you think i seriously don't you take it seriously? the 3. yes, but take it seriously. we take it seriously and now because because look at that he is you may not have any habit battlefield instruments to, to withstand the ukrainian or counter advances. so i think ukraine is taking the seriously and the international community has to take it seriously. after all, we have several nuclear station, the one they have to react, they have to prevent him from doing these. they have to tell him about the diary

consequences if he even dares to, to, to, to, to use it partially on the battlefield or on some are remote areas. the should look, you should not even think about these. so that's my by prison and talking to the world leaders. he, he asked them, ukraine isn't all nuclear state. we don't have a nuclear are weapons. you remember we and we, we were given a way to start in 1094. when our own good will, so that's why we need the protection of the rest of the nuclear powers to protect all the world. literally, you carry out on the euro, all the world from using the say, nuclear weapon. according to some newspapers, nato is said to have warned its members that russia maybe about to stage a nuclear test or some other nuclear demonstration as a warning to ukraine and the west. do you give any credence to these reports or will deliver to all the credible information to reach our partners?

western partners are provided to us and definitely they inform you about this. well, definitely i think our security forces and they don't have the forces have to be in contact with irrelevant but doesn't have to have this information. a defense analyst in poland is reported that a train operated by russia nuclear division was bound for ukraine. have you received such reports? well, again, i saw the news in the press. i don't necessarily, i have these official report and adopting that. something which is linked to the press is a really information. but again, we also take a seriously. and if you had had such a report, would you tell me the probably this is not the information i should sell to the press. all right, your president has promised you will liberate all the territory that russia has seized. does that include crimea? and tell me how you can achieve that goal and at the same time, minimize the risks to the civilian populations that are living under occupation at

the moment. loca cried major credit. you remember the form and my present invented, which is a cranium platform this year we're at a 2nd summit of crimea, bledsoe into online from local business. 40 leaders participated not on the leaders of europe and your atlantic area, but our leaders of african counselors, asian, kansas, latin america conference, and each and every of them said, great media as you grace and daniel green has all the rice to deliberate to stagger . so answering your question, yes, definitely. when my present is thinking about liberating all the territories of ukraine, he means all the characters really, all the characters include the korean peninsula in the borders of 24th of august 1990, while the instruments might be different. so. so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's too complicated now to tell how m, o, liberated crimea, but definitely these, these, these go, he's on our radars. will we be seeing more gorilla style attacks by the underground

units that you've been training now for some time? they sort of home resistance. they've been a lot of reports in the press talking to these are members of your armed forces. do you believe that these groups can make russia pay such a high cost over time? that sir, they will eventually relinquish the land that they've taken from you. well, if you want to make a specifically about give me a little note, this is something something not good for actually is taking place in the grey me or i dunno what is the origin of these, but definitely not something good for russia but, but, but generally speaking looker, we have a rather strong armed forces. we should know what no one can dull. historically, ukraine has also has an experience of having the gorilla wars. i think many of the world has forgotten that ukraine has no knows how to fight. where fighting with russia, who throughout the centuries and in for more than 400 years, russia wanted to capture your grade and try to get to grading different form, must be the formats of usaa sorrow in russian and by us. so you, graham?

yes. having the a blah, the knowledge, the, the, the experience, how to fight, including these, this type of war which you called greenland were. but the once again look at what our armed forces are doing. i think with the sample with the speed, with the support of international community we're enjoying, i've seen a more and more to you. obviously, russian troops are your primary targets. do you also regard russia's civilian administrators? those who have been drafted into the so called amex areas, you regard them as legitimate targets as well. look away as to the less country. we're not, we're not fight with civilians. it's russia will fight. so when, when, when, when, when failing to conquer the grain, young soldiers, they try to not only try, they're doing day and night won't been civilian objects, civilian targets, and civilian people. we are fighting with the enemies. there are armed forces of

russia. if you, um, if you're asking me about those, are those still ukrainians who are, for instance, you know, cooperating with the patient of ours. we have another instruments. we have another instrument. so the 1st instruments being sanctions and by the way, thank you for the international community. was older, get pre p in this sentence, for those who were agonizing those sam referendums. but the 2nd auction ease after when the war each and every who was cooperating with the patient for this was killing you, graham. so jim students will be, will be punished, will have she's of her own way of responsibility. that's why my present is now arguing about great international trade. you know. ready for the, for the, for the, for the russians were responsible for killing ukrainian soldiers. that it, that is why we are bringing this issue to the united nations happening in this issue to our international partners. i think this will be the best possible way to punish and what about report to that there's been summary justice for some of your

own civilians and new york times report in august said your special part is our units were killing those ukrainians who were deemed to be collaborating with the russians. is that true? so i cannot command a look. have this english almost 2000 ukrainians now face charges of having complied with the demons of russian invaders, all your bias, they could get up to 15 years in jail. how certain can you be that they'll get a fair trial under the current circumstances, and we will have a fair trial. i mean, look, i will give you a very, very, very needed example. you know, one really break the areas of northern ukraine, which is a duncan gastorm and we found an evidence of many atrocities made by russian armed forces when the killing raping and you know, children, the women and men. and we brought international inspectors for international

criminal court for my partner countries. forensic experts, detectives, and they're, you know, we're thinking for each and every evidence of these collective cry. but the crime is collective. but the concrete persons responsible for the crime, the individuals, and this is not only present the general, this isn't each and every general each and every major each and every soldier was responsible. so believe me, we will be very scrupulous again with the support and help all of our partners, and we will bring each and every person to the justice which he or she deserves. collaboration is difficult to prove, isn't it mr. job club? because how do you distinguish between those who were forced at the point of a gotten to comply with orders or physically abused or whose relatives were threatened from people who wanted to help the russians? he's a very tricky cases, aren't they? it's a very tricky cases, but i don't think we have the 1st ever historical example of collaboration. i will

definitely use different stories. yes. believe me everyone. what he's now collaborating on, he's on your own the will, will be punished. mister job corps among. oh, putins threat sunday nancy ations last week was a, a direct call for you to and the hostilities and talk peace were ready for this. mr . brewton said, how do you see that offer, you know, from the beginning of this open the war in my mind, my mind might. so there's numerous appeals and speeches and reports and whatever. and my president was ready for negotiations. my president, even grade a team was in go sit in with our son team and you remember there were several meetings, but we were ready for the negotiations for the, for the fruitful negotiations. not for the negotiations of the russian condition conditions. and you remember at some point of time reference, he was started to listen to your grand delegation and even took, you know, the drop proposals of your grade. then out of a sudden, out of

a sudden they return to the dead british position. you can only negotiate with rational and russian conditions. you can only negotiate one russian red lines. you can only negotiate. not only meant them, so one. now we have didn't that if you were here, the narrative of president, we didn't himself. oh, he's a grown, he said rush, he's ready. you fresh a we're ready to a negotiations rush. i would not have december referendums because you might remember the words on my person back in march or april, if russia day is to make this sham referendums, there's nothing to talk to russia. so tell me now what is to talk with us? you? russia captures you legally trying to annex for additional areas for ukraine. what is the subject of negotiations? but hasn't your own president set out his own piece formula that you know, in advance? the russians aren't going to accept and will never accept. i mean, he laid out 5 points, didn't t, among them punishment for rushes, aggression,

and restoration of security and territorial integrity. i am ruling out a settlement. he said that isn't based on the ukrainian piece formula. so it's this way or no way is, isn't that the position isn't your position. wow. this was a piece formula, but look where it was, you know, out and it was didn't really, you know, outspoken in the united national general assembly treaty. really, this is a piece formula, right? who are these form of present of ukraine but at least formula for the whole world. we have our. busy experience so we do share with international community. look what this company will be grammar, whoops would not happen in each and every country anymore. because when they aggressive feels he will not be panos later on. because there is no any legal instrument because you end is not doing the punishment that he's no, you know, a world police can do this punishment. so you know that these 2 have not to happen . my president share, he's formula of peace, right?

you are any war and with negotiations, so sooner or later the so that kind of negotiations will have to happen a little bit. you to settle down the, the, the, the conditions. i think they're great, but in this case, negotiation should be resolved. all negotiations should bring together our partners together, probably a with ukraine, and that's when the president is telling about security guarantees after the war. you know that these aggression not to happen anymore, because russia unfortunately been, expect, will be always aggressive. so we can get the now to think how these nobody to end is aggression, to bring to work to an end. but how will make the submission not happen in the future or since to have the legal guarantees of which county does what in order to secure peace in the sparkled of all right for the moment the door to piece talks is firmly shut. isn't it? for the time being, the only talks would be on the battlefield. let's talk about the issue if we may,

of ukraine and nato, which has been there for many years and never goes away nato membership. in august, you criticize the alliance for not giving you any what you called solid prospect of membership. despite your armies, increasing compatibility with nato troops and systems. we know that they their lead as a dodging the question in public of your membership. what are they telling you behind the scenes? are they more optimistic about that in private? well, you saw that on a friday, my president, someone an application for ford, ford for nato membership, and not the, the, the nato members to, to be, to be thinking about these already. now we do not have a reply, did he? he didn't get much of a reply. well, why not? why not over 2nd? we had to state when the night president of central european countries that they absolutely welcome in the decision a book or stomach in 2008. i have to remind you the book or some it was on. it was

very clear that ukraine should become a member of nato and the 1st instruments of the membership action play. what is happening now? we see that after rush of open aggression, media, things change local to what discovery was sweden and finland. they are almost entering nato. several principals have to be rectified, but their entry 9 to without the membership action plan. so you're going to study ok. we took notice of these. we're now fighting to work. we are enjoying the support and help our nato allies, all of them bring us referencing all of them, helping us with sanctions pull them, bring us a financial assistance, but look, it's high time now to think what will happen after the war. that's why my presence telling yes, let's think about possible entry, new baby green to nato or now let's what do you think about security guarantees for you? great at this period of time. so here we are. suggestion was for him of choices and our partners. no one said no, and you say i didn't hear clear, no say no, you great will never become a member of the same as no one. but you didn't hear

a yes i did you. you didn't hear a yes either. definite, a native also the consensus principle, no one says this consent of discontent will happen to mortal but wish and rock on this. now you great. what's the purpose is to nato allies, and i think all each and every member should think what to do next. as part of a peace settlement, would you ever agree not to join nato? no, that's out of the question. is it? yes, mr. jessica, what is in the end of this war, you can't achieve outright to victory. and the best you can get is not to lose. would you settle for that right now with the country settle for that? you know, i like the, the, the, the, the stance which is expressed almost by all leaders of the world course begin to my president. it's only ukraine and only a grant who will define the scope of victory. what will mean victory for you?

and when you hear the narrative that someone is, you know, in the line in your brain to these or that, you know, conditions or whatever, don't believe them, believe me, it's very hard to, you know, to make present landscape, to go to any, you know, surrenders, or to meet any conditions which i'm not going to sign with national interest of ukraine will fight, will fight of the in the end as victory of ukraine. unfortunately to no one will tell you now, when will be to speak 3 and how many eliasis still to be sacrifice. but again, we deserve thought. the 7 muscles were this, but only graham's ukrainian president graham people, ukrainian armed forces, who will decide, what is the scope of the cranium degree? you talked about thinking ahead to the end of the war. do you foresee, having to remain a heavy military state for the foreseeable future with security, a constant priority always on your guard? are you, are you ready for that kind of future?

yes, yes, yes. i think it was an adroitly a situation that will never be the same in ukraine and the wrong you know, me tell about that. they did the common this association with some other countries in the world. but look, you grant has its own destiny unfortunately. yes. and fortunately for us, but after this war, after this victory, ukrainian armed forces will be ever stronger. even a mighty war experience, more skillful. knowing how to find with the modern equipment. it's healing to nato standards by the way, you know, when, when what no one will tell you now will tell us now that you are not in trouble with armed forces, whatever we have wasn't interoperable. well, find out again, definitely not with the 2nd strongest on in the world, but definitely not with the weakest army in the world. so yes, at these experience, there's experience,

we are ready to share. we are ready to be this forefront of the whole european continent where destined to be here. we will not transfer a grant somewhere to another part of the world. so yes, probably this will be the case for great, very briefly. some experts in the west of suggested that what we're witnessing with the conflict in ukraine is the start of the 3rd world war, 3rd world war between russia and the west. is that how you see this conflict? no, this is how williams is this conflict in his narrative. he's already fighting, not only with the whole west, not only with ne gardener, but probably with the most part of the world, except some countries who support in, you know, this is false russian narratives and probably this, this would be a visual thinking of russia. we are fighting with russia. we are fighting russian aggressive not great. we're starting to, we're struggling with started the war to look in 2014. and it started the open face in 2022. we are fighting by our own. we don't have boots on the ground,

our armed force as a fighter. yes, to the support of more than equipment, weapons, et cetera. but we are destined to fight along the way destined to bring to sport. shatka. its been a pleasure to have you once come fix on. thank you very much indeed for your time. thank you. oh, blue blue with

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those who are finding it difficult. exceeds his successes in our weekly coven 19 special. every thursday con d. w. stay up to date. don't miss our highlights. the d w program online. d, w dot com, highlights. in many countries, education is still a privilege. tardy is one of the main causes. some young children walk in mind troughs. instead of going to class, others can attend classes only after they finish working with millions of children all over the world can't go to school with. we ask why?

because education makes the world more just make up your own mind. d. w. made for mines with, ah ah, this is, do you have any news live from berlin? ukrainian troops re take more territory and advance on retreating. russian forces president of all them is lensky says, his soldiers have liberated dozens of towns. while the european union agrees new sanctions against moscow, also coming up more protests in iran by women and girls braving a government crackdown.