oh, not has no limits. love is for everybody. love is live, love matters. and that's my new podcast. i'm avalanche are mom and i really think we need to talk about all the topics that north divides and denied with this. i have invited many deer and well known guests, and i would like to invite you to an in protest in iran or gaining momentum lead initially by women and girls crying woman life liberty. after the death of a young kurdish woman detained for wearing her head scarf inappropriately. the uprising is now drawing thousands of others under the streets. the protesters,

chad, to death, to the dictator. calling for the end of the repressive clerical regime, which is heading back hard, it's violent, crack down, has killed or detained. hundreds of civilians, journalists, and activists, and shut down the internet. today we're asking, iran rises up. can the bulus be toppled with? and it is a pleasure to agree to our guests give us a happy is an author and journalist of iranian origin who writes among other publications for the german daily. the tots, yada is a box, is the head of the farsi desk here at deutsch avella. you were very pleased to welcome her as a colleague and daniel dylan, burma who reports on iran for the berlin bass to daily developed, also joins us meals. if i can start with you is, is of course,

and not only women, but also school girls who are now tearing off their, he jobs in public. their head scarves are now becoming a symbol for defiance of the regime. where is this fury coming from? have you been surprised by its force? i had and i say i have actually, i mean, wish we've had this problem. i protest for 3 weeks now roughly. and when they started, i thought, well, it is new. a lot of it is still new women and men going together, sat chanting as a said, women life freedom, which is new because all gender school are together. they're fighting for for women's rights together and human rights. but now it's jen z. z is rising up as well. we see jen the rising of all over the world and now we see them iran and the force and the courage of these girls, this young girls who know the higher care of this oppressive regime in schools. we've seen school girls like shouting out the director of the school of it's,

it's just scenes that i am surprised by because the of the force, the power of them and yell did this, of course is not the 1st protest in iran in the past decade. but it is unique in that it was lead initially by women and girls. do you think that will make a difference to its outcome? i definitely think it will. and what we can see already is that these protests have a different dimension, a different quality than all the other protests in the recent years. but we have to say iran has seen we have witnessed a lot of wave of protests in the last 40 years. but it was more like every 10 years and then we can, we could witness that how these are, how it became every year. so we had 20172018 big, huge protest. then we have 2019, which was more. of course, i forgot to mention 2009, which was the green movement, which is very important. but then there it, the difference was it was more about reformers or hardliners. it was about more

freedom. it was the students the lead to more or less, not asking for a regime change or just change of the system of islamic republic. indeed, they're now showing death to them now. sure, exactly not. we don't hear the slogans about reformers or hardliners. what we hear is this to a dictator and addressing the supreme leader to angela, how many and 4, because of this, the role of the women in here being on the forefront on this protest. this is really gaining a different they mention. and they are really addressing one of the symbols of this law make republic, they're challenging, there he job, the forced he job for women. so daniel, the, as we've heard that the protests has been gaining momentum. many, many students now joining the protests, but also facing a very violent crack down. do you think that the protesters

a can maintain their opposition, their defiance in the face of violence? i think it will be a struggle. it will be a very hard struggle. we will likely see this going on for months and if you look at the details of what's happening and individual cities, you see that the level of violence is rising and that the government of iran has basically told, ah, its population. but everybody taking part in these demonstrations faces the risk of death. and this is definitely a new situation. and i think it will be hard to maintain this level of protests. but i think what shawl is, but iran will not remain the same after this kind of protests, no matter if the system can be toppled now or not. and we want to drill a bit deeper into it. precisely that, as the protest proved to be more than

a temporary outburst, the regime has moved to shut down internet access, blocking social media platforms. that's made it harder for the victims of official brutality to document it. and still some images of police firing live ammunition at crowds and beating civilians who are unarmed, are getting through and arousing wide spread revulsion. ah, women life freedom has become their rallying cry. thousands of iranians have taken to the streets nationwide since mid september, field by rage and grief over the presumably violent death of sheena masa, meaning the morality police arrested and detained the 22 year old woman for allegedly wearing her. he job incorrectly. what exactly happened next? is unclear, but in mean he fell into a coma and died shortly afterwards. in a hospital. women are setting fire to their head, start from shouting,

we're fighting, we're dying, and we will take back iran. many men have also joined the growing demonstrations against the oppressive government. it's security forces and the islamic regime. but retaliation has been brutal. at least 130 people are said to have been killed to date act the solidarity have been pouring in from around world while the iranian government violent response to the demonstrations has been heavily criticized by the u. s. europe and even some middle eastern countries like lebanon, will the protests, talk all the mules regime? and gilder? let me put that central question straight away to you. how dangerous is this for the regime? i think it's very dangerous. i think what daniel said, whatever happens this flame that we have been seeing on the streets in all over the country. it won't go out, it won't go away. and we see the young girls they have seen, they have felt. you cannot underestimate the importance of emotions here they have

felt they have experienced freedom. they've taken off their, he job, they have dance on the streets. they have sang on the streets, they, they felt it all the experience at all. and it is true that the regime is cracking down very, very hard on every one, whatever, wherever they see something we've seen videos of some security forces. so just shooting randomly on the street like things that, that's just unimaginable for us here. and even if they do end at some point, which we don't even know, i think also that it might just go on for weeks or months. this is not going to go away. and i believe that the resistance that we've been seeing now is gonna get more structural and organized. i don't think they're just gonna leave it at what it is right now. very interesting. i want to come back to their point in just a moment, but, but looking at the causes of this yelder, how much of this is about the tragic death of masser armine whom we saw in the

report and how much. ringback of it is about a whole pile of additional indignities. it is bows and actually we have to see that people are head up. people are especially women, 50 percent of the population that have basically lost all their rights in the last 40 years since since since the islamic republic was founded. so, and then we have economic issues. we have human rights there is that do not exist basically. so what we, what the difference is here with the tragic and brutal death of martha gina, martha, i mean, this is something that every one can rely. she is a symbol for this. for this week, we did have symbols for protest, but not the symbol that everyone can relate to every woman, like every woman, any want growing up, you get to experience the morale to police. you get this brutal you really eating

explained experience and violence through morale to police because of not being able to wear or to dress the way you want to because of a little bit of heritage from us. i mean, the thing is, she was not even without a job or without the, the heads of she had it just not properly or not probably put on as they, as they put it. so does many, many iranian women do exactly. and that in for say, we see, for 40 years ago how it started. and there were women taking to this tweets and protesting against the forced, sharp. but then they bit with the repression and they had kind of accepted. but what we see now in the, you know, their head scarves are getting lose their etc. this is an achievement of the women in the last 4 decades. but what i want to say is, of course, now this is so many more, this is about so many more. and so many, i think it's very powerful to see how man supporting women on the streets. how the

young generation specially took it to is taking and another dimension or another factor. it factor is, i think, you know, that also i mentioned that school, good girl. yeah. yeah. with students that we have $11.00 aspect of the students, university students. because in the last protest it was said that the still movement is that they are back and they will organize themselves. and this will go on, even if it's fin, it will not go on streets if they will really crack on track down and protesters, this will go on. and universities people will organize, which of course, we just have seen that daniel. as i said, the internet has been shut down, social media sites are blocked. so how much do we really know about the breadth of this movement? protesters themselves say it has become a revolt, a would you also use that term to describe it? i think it's fair to say that it is a revolt because it's so broad, we don't know the exact size. if you look at the various

a human rights organizations and opposition groups, they hand out figures that differ widely. what we know is that it's taking place in definitely more than a 100 cities and places. so aggressive or do we know anything about what's happening in the country say, well, we know that it is going into the provinces. there have been some reports also about action and villagers, but what we know more about is what's going on in the city. so the, the scope of this is very big. and i think what's most noteworthy is that the kind of people taking place is very, very broad. and i think this is what makes the crucial difference here. the last protests like the fuel protests in 201920. they were more focused on the poorer classes, the 2009 protests against the likely a fake election in 2009 was carried by the middle classes to

a large degree. now we have everybody on the street, and the interesting thing is that this was possible because it focused on women because this experience of marginalization of women is something that every family in iran knows no matter where it's placed on the social straighten. and i think this has surprised us also because, but basically everybody thought, well, iran in the end, it's a macho, middle east of society. and it's not that simple. and also, yeah, the cities area, because 70 percent of the population do live in cities. so it's not even if you don't know exactly what's going on when they're on the country side in the provinces, most people do live in the cities. so, and can i just ask you a guilty because we heard the religious leader of iran, the ayatollah pledge recently lay me on the violin. so the protests on reruns, usual scapegoats, the us and israel. and he was looking pretty confident when he spoke to the public

. do you think he will get by in for that narrative? well, the he's had practice for decades. like what we've been seeing as it was, it was to be expected. i mean, he did hold back for quite a while. there were like, i mean, there have been rumors about him being sick for a long time. everyone's like, is he sick? is he not sick everyone? blizzard, and what we saw was just the same thing over and over again. and what i believe is that this was directed not at the people because people in iran, they know that they're lying. there is no doubt about it. when he asked when he talked to people, he ran every one else that they're lying, to them all the time. but when, when the, this is directed especially to the, to, to the west, like we have it under control, we have, it's, you know, with, we do what we always do. we're gonna bring this down and is rollin and the us are to blame that. so that's a play and the game that we've been seeing over and over,

but still things are not changing. that's the difference to santana. you were looking slightly skeptical there. yeah, i, i'm not sure that everybody knows they're lying. i'm not sure that all the population is against the regime. i do think that there is, of course i'm, i don't mean that. i don't think that you meant to imply that, but i just think that it's also important to keep in mind that there's, there is a hard core around the regime, which is bigger than the hard core around most regimes around the world. there is a popular movement of the passage around the regime whose highs as but depending on the way you count it between a 1000000 people and maybe 12000000 people who both depend on that regime economically and who are also mentally and psychologically deeply, deeply rooted in this and they do feel under attack,

they have been feeling under attack a since the eighty's and they see this as a continuation. so one of the scenarios that we should be looking at is not only a violent regime crackdown, but also a kind of a civil war that might break out because there is others. another side. yeah, the what i will, i was the other regime you're the and once you're not an ordinary people though, we have to actually make a different it is right or it is correct was than mcdaniel is, is pointing to. but we have to see that. and these hardcore and what you, you named that also devotion revolution regard cope's, the best c, g 's. these they are of course they will die. yeah. and in our give die for, for, to keep up the ideology of the regime to keep up that islamic, to hold or to hold on to the islamic republic. and it's ideally, but they are less and less normal people normal as to say,

even religious people who had maybe 30 years ago, 43 years ago, support since the islamic republic and their villas, even though those we know that they have turned their back on on this, this way of ruling and this interpretation of the islam by the, by the cleric. so, so i think in we have to of course, there will be correct on and they are in power and the roots are close. have economic power. it's, it's, you know, the div task is to defense the enemy, inside and outside of the country. but i still think that we can see on the streets now also is that this is different layers of society, united standing. and let me, let me briefly ask about that. if i re, i want to quickly move on to ask what the west can and should do. but 1st, getting back to your remarks that you've made about the fact that you think the protest can endure. and you think you see clearly clear leadership or that the

potential for clear leadership. i believe you said that and also daniel, i wouldn't say leadership organization organization. and normally we say that for protests to really become something like a regime changing event. it requires not only leadership, but also security services, or some part of the government to switch sides. who amongst you sees that likelihood there are signs already. we've seen a video on social media of a people, even from the normal army or also. ah, they are tish, i'm not sure. a thumb, i think, don't think they were revolutionary guard people, but thermal army in the army who said, stop killing iranians like they've posted videos online, and that's the 1st time we're seeing that. and i don't think there will be a leadership. i'm not re run as like leaders like one leader,

and also the regime would remove them immediately. that wouldn't work. it's, it has to be brought. it has to be something that all people carry together and that's what we're seeing. okay, let, let, sorry, i'm going to make a cut there because i do want to talk about how other countries can and should respond. and in many european countries, iran's ambassadors have been summoned to account for the regimes crackdown. the u. s. is imposed new sanctions on iran, the u. s. threatening to do the same, but would they make a difference? on may 8th, 2018, former u. s. president donald trump signed a document that are known to be around nuclear deal negotiated by the obama administration. 3 years prior, this will know what the deal was replaced by a policy that maximized political pressure and imposed and even tougher embargo affecting virtually every sphere of life. and no iranian has been spared.

20 morally humility, the sanctions are very tyrannical. this is a tyranny against the people of iran. it is important to us all to have the sanctions lifted, but negotiations with around for a new deal are slow to progress and the moors regime doesn't seem to be in any rush to comply. meanwhile, there are reports of iran expanding its uranium enrichment program, meaning the country is closer than ever to having nuclear capabilities. why won't iran conceit on the nuclear issue? so if a fair question straight to daniel, you know, just a couple of months ago, it looked like the nuclear agreement could be revived. now it seems to be dead in the water once again. why is that? and what is the standstill? mean for western leverage v, as in iran, i think we should be really, really worried about the state of the nuclear talks. because if you talk to them, go see 8 us to the people who have been sitting on the table on the negotiating

table with iranians. for years, even those will have defended this process and this attempt to re integrate iran are now in doubt whether iran at all once a deal. and the reason is that they have progressed with the nuclear program so strongly and in such a clear military direction. the so clearly now a program which is directed at acquiring at least nuclear weapons capability. and there are now a obstructing the negotiations by opening up questions that had been negotiated before. so the doubts are very big here. i think the connection to the, to the unrest and iran is that of course, preserving the regime. that's the 1st priority, which the iranian leadership regards, both in the nuclear talks and in internal policy. and i think that this unrest will

accelerate the decision of the regime either to go for nuclear weapons or nuclear weapons capability, or a change of course, what, we're not, what we have not been seeing. and the last few years is that the likely for change of course, has grown, does actually diminished as a radicalization. but let's remember the thing that brought iran to the negotiating table back in 20142015 was sanctions. and any other additional sanctions, would they actually hurt the regime which as record of corruption and economic mismanagement? or would they hurt the iranian people? the thing is, um, we need more pressure on iran to west the you needs another iran strategy. the worst thing to do now is to get back to did to do nuclear deal as if nothing had happened and go it, this is this, this is

a really bad signal for the people in iran. because as you know, sanctions, of course they hurt people, but on the other hand, do you, we didn't hear any slogans on the streets and saying, please lift to lift the sanctions because people know, even if you lift the sanctions, it's not the people who will profit from that it then it will basically make no change. so the, it is important to put it depends on what kind of sanctions are there was there was we're talking about, you know, sanctions on persons on, on persons responsible for the crackdown for killing their own people. but the responsible is in the end, the supreme leader, ayatollah. how many for, for all this. so, and i think it is symbolic, this kind of sanctions. it is good, but it's not enough in a word briefly. what would you want you to do? what is that new strategy look like? hold iran accountable for what is happening in, in the country right now. and another aspect is very briefly for the people in iran,

it's really important to see supports. what in one dimension is, you know, an artists, celebrities, people speaking out people, you know, so there are slowly rising with the people in ron, cutting their hairs. we have the french as, as to get the knowledge and some others cutting. there is, there's a strong people see that, but what we need now that we cannot leave them alone because what is happening is the internet shuts on. we had a 2019. they will just go on and kill an arrest. we have a, i had a quote from one protest her that i saw when i was preparing for this show. who said the regime is trying to turn iran into north korea nuclear armed and completely isolated. is that a real risk? i don't think they will be completely isolated. i think russia and china are happy to jump in. so i think it's important for the west. like we heard from the german foreign minister on monday. she said, oh she so she, she,

she showed like compassion and she acknowledged the fight of the people. and to said, it's too bad, we can't really do much. but that's not true. like there is a whole range of things that can be done in foreign policy is there, you can freeze assets, you can stop children and families of these was in people from traveling all over the world, like spending all the money that they've taken from the p targeted sanctions targeted and that wouldn't hurt the people because as the other says, like that, they know that then i get an, any of this, any of the money that's coming in. so i don't, i'm, i'm not sure if, if they can turn iran into north korea because there's just too much connection to other to the rest of the world. we have families all over the place. people are connected. yeah. let me ask daniel briefly, let's come back to the title. iran rises up can, will as be toppled. nothing last forever. that's for sure. so you'd say, yes, it's possible, but the question is, the timeline and what the risk and the fall out for the security of the middle east

and hands for europe will be the other. it is, if we don't let the people in iran alone, if we do to support and just briefly what we heard in a street is, this is not a protest anymore. this is the beginning of the reverse. one word. yes. thank you so much to all of you from being with us. thank you. out there for tuning in and please send us your comments on our topic. we very much want to hear from you dear audience. so thanks for joining us and see you soon. ah ah you ah, with

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