oh, hello guys. this is the 7070 goes to the 77 percent every weekend. i'm dw it with the most severe russian missile attacks in months have hit ukraine. the targets bridges, roads, and most importantly, electricity and water supplies. nuclear power plants as well as homes and even playgrounds civilian infrastructure. this is retaliation. the prevalent claims accusing ukrainian intelligence of being behind the attack on the bridge between annexed crimea and the russian mainland. meanwhile, prudence threat of nuclear weapons continues to loom on to the point we ask russian missile attacks on ukraine. how far will the kremlin go

with hello and welcome to this week's to the point. i'm have you know, yes, and i'm very glad to join the to the point team starting to date. now what i love about the show is that i'm never alone. i'll always be joined by distinguished guests. let's see. today's line up. it's alexandra phillip panko. she is a russian analyst working for the institute for the us. and canada studies currently based in vilnius with wayne young folk of axle is an editor for the monthly magazine. aust, i hope are here in berlin, focusing on issues in eastern europe and woman gone, chatting go as my dw colleague from ukraine, normally working in boston for our russian service. i'm glad to welcome here. welcome him here personally in the studio in berlin to all 3 of you. thank you very much for joining us and welcome to this week's show. now i'd like to start by assessing the recent developments in ukraine, especially those masses' attacks that we saw on monday. ukrainians of course,

have been dealing with russian showing for months now. but i'd like to start with you woman. and just to understand what's going on. this attack seem to be different . what have you heard from friends and family? well, they are different because they are so massive. there were attacks on the very 1st day of the russian invasion in february. and then there were pauses, but there has never been so menu or missiles shorted the same time when ukrainian territory. what comes new now is also that russia extensively using those drones from iran and this ads together. and which means practical that people in ukraine have to stay in shelters for hours and hours on kids. people cannot go to work. are they afraid to sleep at night? because they were kind of used to those air raid sirens. when i wasn't here for 2 times, i saw people just walking on the streets. although the government says people,

please go to the shelters, don't ignore it. but people somehow got used to it. they felt secure, they don't felt feel secure now, so that this is a major change there. do you think that that major change also affects the perception of how the war is developing in cri, of course. well, on the one hand, people have been expecting something like this at the very beginning. and now we have 7 months on and this things happen it because it is, is going very intense and a civilian population is now feeling it much more than it used to, especially in summer, for example, when it was relatively calm in ukraine and mainland far away from the front line. now it is completely different and winter's coming cold is coming, and people are worried whether it will be warm in their homes, if they will have running water enough food supplies and the government is urging people to prepare for that. but as i've just said, people have been expecting this month before, didn't happen then,

but now they know they have to act the fuck out. there have been many descriptions of these most recent attacks. some have said it's retaliation. just like, let me put and said for the destruction of that criminal bridge, others have said this was a desperate attempt by latimer putin who, seeing that he is maybe not progressing in the war as much as he wants. others have said that this has been a very carefully planned attack for months. what's your assessment of the nature of these recent attacks? all 3 assessment, the 2 because of things like that they are planned before, but they are not done. so just to the very decision to use these rocket for ad taro am has to be prepared. but on just after the crimea bridge, there was at the point when they really did it, then m retaliation is so i think it's the will, the key word because it thinks changed after the crimea bridge. and it's completely different from what happened at the beginning of the war. because at that moment it

was kind of a deterrence, her all and shocked, targeted toward your queen and civil civil society, ukrainian population. and you, queen and government just give up. and now i don't really think that the kremlin, suppose that the russian or the you couldn't, and government will change, of course, in this war. and neither will the queen and population. so it's just routinely asian, the sands that they chose to moscow radicals. and that after the crimea, which we have to do something, we are losing on ground this war. and they are even now targeting our mainland infrastructure. and crimea is seen as quick as mainland, so i have to do something. so there was panic with what your 3rd point m as though at a certain point to all 3 of them. and it was also very important from the perspective of the narrative that we've seen from this war. sandra,

couldn't certainly needed to change the way the western media is recording the way people are talking about his advance in this war. what's your impression about that change of narrative? did he succeed in changing that? that story line, if you will, that ukraine was progressing, that they had actually repelled russian troops from vast parts of the occupied land . was that successful in that sense? well, looking inside rush hour from russia, from, from the outside. if for i, unfortunately, i watch some of russian television, i have to to know what, what they are, they are saying. but i'm a say that inside russia let him are putting on the kremlin. generally, they can say that they've one right now that's, that's the power of the propaganda. and it's a good thing that they can not change the narrative of the outside world of the free world. or they cannot change the narrative in europe or in the united states.

and because people are seeing what is happening in ukraine and they are seeing the civilians target being targeted. and that is very important. and me being from the institute of us and canadian studies i'm, of course, i'm aware worried. i'm a say about the american elections about the kong and elections and congress. and that's what i've been seeing recently in from republicans from fox news from right wing media is the change of narrative, but i don't think it has anything to do with the russian. there is no advance, so i cannot say advance from russian way of waging this horrific war. so this is the whole other question, but thankfully, for now, president putin and the kremlin, they can only control the narrative inside russia and they're extremely successful in that. and since most russian media is prohibited in europe or, and in the united states, that is why they cannot change the narrative in europe and the united states. and

that is a, something that i was happy to see. but don't you think that the perception, even here in the western countries, if we will, was that until now. there were like fights going on in different parts of the ukrainian territory, but that couldn't actually showed that he can massively damage ukraine in one day. basically pushing a but yes, that's true. you're absolutely right. and this idea of the, of the fact that, oh, it's a war somewhere somewhere far, far away from european borders. know, it's happening in the center of europe basically in, in it's happening very close to everyone's borders. and kremlin is dangerous for the, for europe. so that, that is one of the points. but i don't think that this way, he changed the narrative in a good way for the kremlin. i think he just showed that to kremlin and kremlin politics is quite dangerous for the whole world. so the, in this way, yes,

i think it changed and the fact and the way europe and the united states were fast to act, to help out ukraine. this shows that people are listening right now. people are listening also within a russia woman. and we already mentioned the hard liners, if you will, in moscow that were pushing for more severe attack. some even saying russia should do this every single day. did flattery put in at least and succeed in convincing the hard liners in moscow that he is going going on or continuing this war in the way they prefer? well, the hardliners don't, you know, we have access to. i mean, those who write every day bloggers are on telegram or other social media channels. they are drinking champagne, of course. so they're very happy. the question is how, how long and are there is? this is a big question because we are discussing of how many missiles russia has left for

how long can rush to sustain such attacks on ukrainian civil into infrastructure and what they are pushing for is a major offensive. so they say we have to use this moment that we have now, or we stopped the ukranian counter offensive, which started in late august and then was very successful in early september in the north of ukraine. so russian russians claim, now we managed to stop that. we manage the subs that in the south. now we have to push forward the claim nearly every day that they have retaken maybe some small villages or the territories ukraine and again says we have for it. so it is a very dynamic situation. but you asked about the hard line nice. i think they will not just arrest until they see a major success of russia. and so far, the biggest success was to hit power stations to interrupt energy supply within ukraine to make people suffer civilian population. there is no success on the

battlefield, at least, and no big success for the russian army. and this is a big question, how the situation will develop in the coming months as we are moving towards winter, as i've just said. and the weather will be worse, and when rain starts and it will be colder, if this will bring this practically to a halt, this ukrainian and russian counter offensives will have to see. i personally believe it won't. i think we will see fighting just like before. you mentioned one of the key aspects that we definitely want to talk about, because from what we can see, the russian army seems to be trying to inflict as much damage as possible. the latest missiles were launched against critical infrastructure, especially the one that guarantees the supply of energy, human casualties are seen as a collateral damage that russia apparently is willing to put up with just like it did in the 19 kilometer cash bridge was damaged by who is still unclear. russia accuses ukraine of being behind the attack in

response, russia bombs, numerous ukrainian cities, including key its main target, the power infrastructure grey, not new frame, cannot be accommodated, should we all united even more. instead, we are convinced even more that terror rhetoric is matthew neutralizer nash cordial at zach region. the largest nuclear power plant in europe has also been the target of rockets and artillery fire on several occasions that has been repaired each time . the most mysterious attack of civilian infrastructure concerns the baltic sea pipeline. no stream one and 2 that have been damaged by explosions in several places. it is still completely unclear who is behind it. is critical civilian infrastructure becoming the chief target of the attack. it

certainly seems like it from what we've seen in recent days now far, according to reports, 30 percent off ukrainian energy infrastructure has been damaged this week. how badly does that really hit the country right now? so according to my information, the possibility to repair all that in the coming days and weeks is still there. the big question roman already said is, did russian not hit hard route because it's not able, it does not one for pull to the go. weasels. all does it still spare some rockets for the future for future attacks because the winter will come but winter is still not there. so it's kind of possible some experts, all like these are that they have so few rockets left that they want to spare with them for attacks closer to mid december when the temperature in ukraine is really beyond much beyond 0 thought over 10 days or 20 days. to repair the system, it's much harder than for no. you mentioned the fact that russia might be running

out of ammunition or of certain type of ammunition at least but, alexandra, we have the same situation in nato. we just saw a nato meeting, a high profile meeting of the defense ministers were one of the issues is how to still balance the necessities of ukraine while still are making sure that the nato countries have enough ammunition for their own protection. what's your assessment on how sustainable the support for ukraine can be? and i'm sorry being in berlin. m dragging every one to watch since to washington. but i'm always, i understand they a speak her about the united states, mostly an a follow what's happening in the united states. and it looks like the united states can and provide the weapons that are needed and maybe not europe, not, not at this point, but the united states are able to provide the needed weapons. and i key of has been asking for this for a very long time. and oh, of course,

that heavy weaponry and everything and a closing the skies and all of that is extremely important. and it looks like a wild, a nato is sale. of course, it's very powerful right now. and i, since the democrats are in power, not her president. trump, who thought, who saw nato as they're not needed any more. but now, while the democrats are in power is especially the when congress in november, i suppose that and more weapons must come from the united states, not from europe may be, but from the united states. so that would suggest that both sides can still sustain this. for a longer time, a woman were, we were talking about the possibility of civilian infrastructure to be more hardly hit in the coming months. but we're not only talking about the russian territory or the korean territory. you also saw damages that are still being investigated. for example, in the north stream pipelines, should we brace for more attacks on villian infrastructure, even here in the west?

well, certainly, i think the best governments are aware of that and are preparing or have have prepared plans for such cases. we still do not know for sure what exactly happened, but if it was russia and there are some indications that could have been russia that have done this in the baltic sea, then all the cable networks are the pipeline in the baltic. sea in the seas are in danger. so the west is stepping up efforts to control that to monitor the situation. but you cannot put a new submarines everywhere. you can put camera install cameras everywhere. and if, even if you have cameras, you cannot stop actual sabotage if they come. so this is something that is possible . this is something that is possible because we have a very special, very difficult vent winter in front of us in western europe and in europe in general. maybe also in the world because there is an energy prices which are sky

high. and we have shortages of supply, and of course russia knows it and we'll try to use it in what way we will see there is another important aspect also in the russian side, because the destruction of that bridge in crimea, the crimean bridge was seen as highly symbolic, we've seen some arrests already by the russian government. what do we know about who really it was behind that attack and how did it hit russia symbolically speaking as well. but speaking it hit very hard. the 1st moment nuku unions had a good reason to hope that it hit more than symbolically, but the facts will show that the automotive who transit transit could be recovered after hours and even the even the ways going. so what we see is that this was more symbolic than really military target either. now if it's clear,

this was the goal of the ukrainians. i'm sure this was you quin secretary with that's no, no doubt about this. no other organization would have done this. mm hm. and so what we saw, why russia at the 1st moment did not hit back in minutes or hours was that there are still controlling the process. there still at least no fainted to, to have a rational process or an investigation. and it took them 2 or 3 days. mm hm. so it's for the public, we don't just sit back, we are a rational actor, that's what they want to show through. interesting a, i wanted to add one thing. they're always saying everything is going according to the plan grounds, always saying everything concurrent, no one knows the plan, but it seems that everything's going so that, that's i just want to add him to what you just said and agree with you. this is

from crime you worried? they said it was an incident because clearly they know that was green and attacks. but they called an incident from unknown people or unknown fire or just not to be in the situation that they're forced to act. right. but we have not seen the condemnation that at least the western countries have had with similar actions by the russian army as we have seen from this. apparently, if that's correct, where you say an action of the ukrainian secret services. what's your assessment on that one? well either or it's a, it's a very symbolic act. and i think that as one of those headliners we've been talking about put it, it's a punch in the stomach while you are grasping that, you're trying to concentrate. so you are completely puzzled what's going on. it is not so much that it hurts russia, of course it hurts or the supplies to the claim in peninsula the annex crimean

peninsula. but as you've said, the trains are running, some cars are running, the trucks will have to use ferries. now are the slows down the process, but still the bridges? there are the major impact was purely symbolic, i think, at, but we shouldn't underestimate it because it's, it's, we have to understand it's been one of the best guarded objects may be in russia of russian infrastructure. or maybe not as good as the kremlin, but maybe 2nd or 3rd. so it is extremely symbolic that russia cannot guarantee that such think won't happen in the future. so we'll see how, how much pressure that actually implies for the kremlin. now, many experts fear that a bad performance of the russian forces in the battle field could significantly increase the danger of an escalation of the war, even leading to the use of tactical nuclear weapons. there are small, tactical nuclear weapons have never been used. almost every nuclear power has the

minutes. arsenal. russia alone has a 2000. the warheads, mounted on short range missiles and cruise missiles, could destroy large target areas in the ukraine. russia has repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons in it's war of aggression. people, you, roy, he did it today and it still is this delicious threat. if there is a threat to the territorial integrity of russia, we will use all available means to us national citizen. i'm not bluffing that you believe it didn't take long for the u. s. president to respond while avoiding talk of a red line by didn't compare the situation and the ukraine was in a cuban missile crisis of 1962. when the world came closer than ever to the brink of the nuclear war. biden warned that using tactical nuclear weapon is could lead

to armageddon. we'll to, to use nuclear weapons against ukraine, risking war with the west. that is the big question. no one really wants to talk about. however, we do have to ask those questions. alexandra, we just saw the comparison to the cuban crisis of 1962 regarded as the last showdown between the u. s. and russia regarding nuclear weapons or how similar or different is the situation we are in now. oh, for since in 2014 we've been saying that we are in the cold war 2 point. oh, and it's this month. it's 60 years this month of the it's i, i don't congratulate anyone, but it's 60 years since the cuban missile crisis. exactly. now. so the, of course at 6 ex, extremely symbolic that now we're back, we're back and we're talking about nuclear weapons and a for now and what were the white house and president biden? and the democrats are very worried about the use of tactical nuclear weapons. but

there, it's saying that there is a possibility, even of the nuclear em armageddon. but i must say that right, when democrats and republicans and a lot of other american politicians are saying that white house shouldn't use those words. and it, sir, and president biden is only using it because he needs to get more money for the democratic party reminding everyone that it was president kennedy from the democratic party, who as saved the world. and so that it might have something to do with american elections, of course, although as a key of his said many times and the whole world is saying that we shouldn't, we should be aware, we should really look at what is happening in russia. but again, the different opinions, different people, different opinions, but i am optimistic maybe i'm too optimistic, but i'm hoping that there won't be any use of tactical or even tactical nuclear web

as hopefully i don't know. but again, everyone should be on the lot of course, knowing the kremlin and president and the military service certainly are a woman. we don't really know the processes behind actually using nuclear weapons. this stay right now, but do you think there are still this back line where military experts were examples are still in contact beyond what putin and biden specifically can say or discuss. well, they have those course contacts were there before i shine very good ukraine. you remember i was there in geneva just a year ago where preston biden and present put in met and decided that they would resume talking about strategic issues about maybe reduction of nuclear weapons. and it all seemed very optimistic just half a year later, rush in where did ukraine, and we can completely forget what's been agreed on at the time. i think there are still contacts on the military level about those issues or nuclear weapons. but on

the other hand, at this moment, i would say the danger of russia using a tactical nuclear weapons against ukraine is relatively low, because the russia is trying to throw that mobilization. i. so getting more soldiers to fight on the battlefield or just a conventional war, i think through that roster is trying to regain the initiative. and we will see that in the coming months. brief. yes, no question. do you share that optimism? no. a. it's not low. it's not high to but if the mobilization is successful, yes, but this would mean that was able to destroy you clean by conventional me. but if this is not the case, then the possibility of use of a tactical weapon is really, really high. and you can compare it to the cuban situation, we would have to discuss that in a further show. that's all we have time for right now. thank you very much to all 3 of you for joining us. thank you for watching. and remember that you are always

welcome to comment on this show and all our programs in our youtube channel by searching for it to the point i'll hope to see you next week until then take care bye with

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ah, ah ah, this is dw news live from the land, rusty weapons, and little training for the front. we report on how moscow is sending its newly mobilized soldiers into battle. there's more signs emerge that russia is now on the back foot in ukraine. and this process for monday shows the moments a man.