ah, whatever it takes, 5 policemen follow being paid. do go here. we are here is actually on fire made for mines. ah, the most severe russian missile attacks in months have hit ukraine. the targets bridges, roads, and most importantly, electricity and water supplies. nuclear power plants, as well as homes and even playgrounds civilian infrastructure. this is retaliation . the kremlin claims accusing ukrainian intelligence of being behind the attack on the bridge between annexed crimea and the russian mainland. meanwhile, hooton's threat of nuclear weapons continues to loom on to the point we ask russian missile attacks on ukraine. how far will the kremlin go

with to join the to the point team starting to date. now what i love about the show is that i am never alone, i'll always be joined by distinguished guests. let's see today's line up. it's alexandra phillip panko. she is a russian analyst working for the institute for the us. and canada studies currently based in vilnius, with wayne young folk of axle is an editor for the monthly magazine, aust, or hopa here in berlin, focusing on issues in eastern europe and woman gone, chatting go as my dw colleague from ukraine. normally working in boston for our russian service, i'm glad to welcome here. welcome him here personally in the studio in berlin to all 3 of you. thank you very much for joining us and welcome to this week's show. and i'd like to start by assessing the recent developments in ukraine, especially those massive attacks that we saw on monday. ukrainians, of course, have been dealing with russian showing for months now. but like to start with you

woman, just to understand what's going on. this attack seem to be different. what have you heard from friends and family? well, they are different because they are so massive. there were attacks on the very 1st day of the russian invasion in february. and then there were pauses, but there has never been so menu or missiles short at the same time when ukrainian territory. what comes new now is also that russia extensively using those drones from iran. and this as together, and which means practical that people in ukraine have to stay in shelters for hours and hours on kids. people cannot go to work. are they afraid to sleep at night because they were kind of used to those air raid sirens? when i wasn't here for 2 times, i saw people just walking on the streets. although the government says people, please go to the shelters, don't ignore it. but people somehow got used to it,

they felt secure, they don't felt feel secure now. so this is a major change there. do you think that that major change also affects the perception of how the war is developing in crane? of course, well, on the one hand, people have been expecting something like this at the very beginning. and now we have 7 months on all this things happen because it is going very intense and a civilian population is now feeling it much more than it used to. especially in summer, for example, when it was relatively calm in ukraine and mainland far away from the front line. now it is completely different and winter's coming cold is coming and people are worried whether it will be warm in their homes, if they will have running water enough food supplies and the government is urging people to prepare for that. but as i've just said, people have been expecting this month before. it didn't happen then, but now they know they have to act the fact that there have been many descriptions

of these most recent attacks. some have set its retaliation. just like, let me put and said for the destruction of that criminal bridge, others have said this was a desperate attempt by latimer putin who, seeing that he is maybe not progressing in the war as much as he wants. others have said that this has been a very carefully planned attack for months. what's your assessment of the nature of these recent attacks? all 3 assessment, the 2 because of things like that they are planned before, but they are not done. so just to the very decision to use these rocket for ad taro am has to be prepared. but on just after the crimea bridge, there was at the point when they really did it, then m retaliation is so i think it's the will, the key word because it thinks changed after the crimea bridge. and it's completely different from what happened at the beginning of the war. because at that moment it was kind of a deterrence her all and shocked,

targeted towards your queen in civil civil society, you, queen, in population. and you, queen and government just give up. and now i don't really think that the kremlin, suppose that the russian or the union government will change its course in this war . and neither will the queen and population. so it's just routinely asian, the sands that they chose to moscow radicals. and that after the crimea, which we have to do something, we are losing on ground this war. and they are even now targeting our mainland infrastructure. and crimea is seen as quick as mainland, so i have to do something. so there was panic with what your 3rd point m as though at a certain point to all 3 of them. and it was also very important from the perspective of the narrative that we've seen from this war. alexandra couldn't certainly needed to change the way the western media reporting the way people are talking about his

advance in this war. what's your impression about that change of narrative? did he succeed in changing that? that story line, if you will, that ukraine was progressing, that they had actually repelled russian troops from vast parts of the occupied land . was that successful in that sense? well, looking inside rush hour from russia, from, from the outside. if for i, unfortunately, i watch some of russian television, i have to to know what, what they are, they are saying. but i'm a say that inside russia let him are putting on the kremlin. generally, they can say that they've one right now that's, that's the power of the propaganda. and it's a good thing that they can not change the narrative of the outside world of the free world. or they cannot change the narrative in europe or in the united states. and because people are seeing what is happening in ukraine and they are seeing the

civilians target being targeted. and that is very important. and me being from the institute of us and canadian studies i'm, of course, i'm aware worried i must say about the american elections about the kong and elections and congress. and that's what i've been seeing recently in from republicans from fox news from right wing media is the change of narrative, but i don't think it has anything to do with the russian. there is no advance. so i cannot say advance from a russian way of waging this horrific war. so this is the whole other question, but thankfully, for now, president putin and the kremlin, they can only control the narrative inside russia, and they're extremely successful in that. and since most russian media is prohibited in europe or, and in the united states, that is why they cannot change the narrative in europe and the united states. and that is served something that i was happy to see. but don't you think that the

perception, even here in the western countries, if we will, was that until now. there were like fights going on in different parts of the ukrainian territory, but that couldn't actually showed that he can massively damage ukraine in one day. basically pushing a but yes, that's true. you're absolutely right. and i this idea of the, of the fact that, oh, it's a war somewhere somewhere far, far away from european borders. know it's happening in the center of europe, basically in, in it's happening very close to everyone's borders. and kremlin is dangerous for the, for europe. so that, that is one of the points. but i don't think that this way he changed the narrative in a good way for the kremlin. i think he just showed that at kremlin and kremlin politics is quite dangerous for the whole world. so the, in this way, yes, i think it changed. and the fact and the way europe and the united states were fast

to act, to help out ukraine. this shows that people are listening right now. people are listening also within a russia woman. and we already mentioned the hardliners, if you will, in moscow that were pushing for more severe attacks. some even saying russia should do this every single day. did flattery put in at least and succeed in convincing the hard liners in moscow that he is going going on or continuing this war in the way they prefer? well, the hard line us that we have access to, i mean those who write every day bloggers are on telegram or other social media channels. they are drinking champagne, of course. so they're very happy. the question is, how long as there is, this is a big question because we are discussing how many missiles russia has left for how long can rush to sustain such attacks on ukrainian civil into infrastructure and

what they are pushing for is a major offensive. so they say we have to use this moment that we have now, or we stopped the ukrainian counter offensive, which started in late august and then was very successful in early september in the north of ukraine. so russian russians claim, now we managed to stop that. we managed to sub that in the south. now we have to push forward. they claim nearly every day that they have retaken maybe some small villages or the territories ukraine and again says we have for it. so it is a very dynamic situation. but you ask about the hard line nice. i think they will not just arrest until they see a major success of russia. and so, so far, the biggest success was to hit power stations to interrupt energy supply within your crane to make people suffer civilian population. there is no success on the battlefield, at least no big success for the russian army. and this is

a big question, how the situation will develop in the coming months as we are moving towards winter, as i've just said. and the weather will be worse. and when rain starts and it will be colder, if this will bring this practically to a whole to this ukrainian end russian counter offensive, we'll have to see, i personally believe it won't. i think we will see fighting, just like before. you mentioned one of the key aspects that we definitely want to talk about because from we can see, the russian army seems to be trying to inflict as much damage as possible. the latest missiles where launched against critical infrastructure, especially the one that guarantees the supply of energy, human casualties are seen as a collateral damage that russia apparently is willing to put up with just like it did in syria. the 19 kilometer coach bridge was attacked and damaged by whom is still unclear. russia accuses ukraine of being behind the attack in response, russia bombs, numerous ukrainian cities, including keith,

it's main target. the power infrastructure, gray, not new crane cannot be accommodated. she, we are united even more. instead, we are convinced even more that terror rhetoric was matthew neutralizer. ms. cordial at zach region. the largest nuclear power plant in europe has also been the target of rockets and artillery fire on several occasions and has been repaired each time. the most mysterious attack of civilian infrastructure concerns the baltic sea pipeline. no stream one and 2 that have been damaged by explosions in several places. it is still completely unclear who is behind it. is critical civilian infrastructure becoming the chief target of the attack. it certainly seems like it from what we've seen in recent days. now focus according to reports, 30 percent off ukrainian energy infrastructure has been damaged or this week. how

badly does that really hit the country right now? so according to my information, the possibility to repair all that in the coming days and weeks is still there. the big question, roman, all the sad is, did russian not it hard group because it's not able, it does not one for pull to the go weasels. all does it still spare some rockets for the future for future attacks because the winter will come, but when is still not there. so it's kind of possible some experts are glad these own that they have so few rockets the left that they want to spare with them for attacks closer to mid december when the temperature in ukraine is really beyond much beyond 0. so 10 days or 20 days to repair the system is much harder than that. for now. you mentioned the fact that russia might be running out of ammunition or a certain type of ammunition, at least. but, alexandra,

we have the same situation in nato. we just saw a nato meeting, a high profile meeting of the defense ministers were one of the issues is how to still balance the necessities of ukraine while still are making sure that the nato countries have enough ammunition for their own protection. what's your assessment on how sustainable the support for ukraine can be? and i'm sorry being in berlin. m dragging every one to wash him to washington. but i'm always, i understand they, i speak to her about the united states, mostly an a follow what's happening in the united states. and it looks like the united states can i provide the weapons that are needed and maybe not europe, not, not at this point, but the united states are able to provide the needed weapons. and i key of has been asking for this for a very long time. and oh, of course, that heavy weaponry and everything and closing the skies and all of that is extremely important. and it looks like a wild, a nato is sale. of course,

it's very powerful right now. and i, since the democrats are in power, not her president. trump, who thought, who saw nato as are not needed any more. but now, while the democrats are in power, especially the when congress in november, i suppose that and more weapons must come from the united states, not from europe may be, but from the united states. so that would suggest step, both sides can still sustain this. for a longer time, woman, we were talking about the possibility of civilian infrastructure to be more hardly hit in the coming months. but we're not only talking about the russian territory or the korean territory also saw damages that are still being investigated. for example, in the north stream pipelines, should we brace for more attacks on civilian infrastructure even here in the west? well, certainly, i think the governments are aware of that and are preparing or have have prepared

plans for such cases. we still do not know for sure what exactly happened, but if it was russia and there are some indications that could have been russia that have done this in the baltic sea, then all on cable networks are the pipeline in the baltic. sea in the seas are in danger. so the west is stepping up efforts to control that to monitor the situation. but you cannot put a new submarines everywhere. you can put camera install cameras everywhere. and if, even if you have cameras, you cannot stop actual sabotage if they come. so this is something that is possible . this is something that is possible because we have a very special, very difficult vent winter in front of us in western europe and in europe in general. maybe also in the world because there is an energy prices which are sky high. and we have shortages of supply, and of course russia knows it and we'll try to use it in what way we will see there

is another important aspect also in the russian side, because the destruction of that bridge in crimea, the crimean bridge was seen as highly symbolic, we've seen some arrests already by the russian government. what do we know about who really it was behind that attack and how did it hit russia symbolically speaking as well? it's a ball speaking, it hit very hard. the 1st movement nuku unions had a good reason to hope that it hit more than symbolically, but over the facts show that um, though automotive um transit transit could be recovered um after hours and even though um, even though airways going. so what we see is that this was more symbolic than really military target. i don't know if it's clear this was the goal of the ukrainians. i'm sure this was you quin secretary with no no doubt about this. no

other organization would have done this. um, and so what we saw, why russia at the 1st moment did not hit back in minutes or hours was that there are still controlling the process. they're still at least oh, fainted to, to have a rational process or an investigation. and it took them 2 or 3 days. um, so it's for the public, we don't have it back. we are a rational actor. that's what they want to show you through chatting a i wanted to add one thing. they're always saying everything is going according to the plan grounds, always saying everything concurrent, no one knows the plan, but it seems that everyone's, everything's going. so that's, i just want to add here. what is the fed and agree with you? a brief system, crimea worried. they said it was an incident because clearly they know that was

green and attacks, but they called an incident from unknown people or unknown fire or just not to be in the situation that they're forced to act. right. but we have not seen the condemnation that at least the western countries have had with similar actions by the russian army, as we have seen from this. apparently, if that's correct, where you say an action of the ukrainian secret services. what's your assessment on that one? well, either soccer, it's a, it's a very symbolic act. and i think that as one of those headliners we've been talking about put it, it's a punch in the stomach where you are grasping that you're trying to concentrate. so you are completely puzzled what's going on. it is not so much that it hurts, are russia? of course, it hurts are the supplies to the claim in peninsula the in extreme in peninsula. but as you've said, the trains are running, some cars are running,

the trucks will have to use varies. now, this slows down the process, but still the bridges, there are the major impact was purely symbolic, i think, at, but we shouldn't underestimate it because it's, it's, we have to understand, it's been one of the best guarded objects. maybe in russia of russian infrastructure, or maybe not as good as the kremlin, but maybe 2nd or 3rd. so it is extremely symbolic that russia cannot guarantee that such think won't happen in the future. so we'll see how, how much pressure that actually implies for the kremlin. now, many experts fear that a bad performance of the russian forces in the battle field could significantly increase the danger of an escalation of the war. even leading to the use of tactical nuclear weapons. there are small, tactical nuclear weapons have never been used. almost every nuclear power has them minutes. arsenault. russia alone has 2000. the warheads,

mounted on short range missiles, of cruise missiles, could destroy large target areas in the ukraine. russia has repeatedly threatened to use nuclear weapons and it's more of aggression even growth d 3, and it's still, this is demetrius threat. if there is a threat to the territorial integrity of russia, we will use all available means to us national citizen. i'm not effect that you believe. it didn't take long for the u. s. president to respond while avoiding talk of a red line by didn't compare the situation in the ukraine voice of the cuban missile crisis of 1962. when the world came closer than ever to the brink of the nuclear war. biden horns that using tactical nuclear weapons could lead to armageddon. will hoots, and use nuclear weapons against ukraine, risking war with the west?

that is the big question. no one really wants to talk about. however, we do have to ask those questions. alexandra, we just saw the comparison to the cuban crisis of 1962 regarded as the last showdown between the u. s. and russia regarding nuclear weapons or how similar or different is the situation we are in now o. f for since in 2014 we've been saying that we are in the cold war 2 point. oh, and it's this month. it's 60 years this month of the it's i, i don't congratulate anyone, but it's 60 years since the cuban missile crisis. exactly. now. so the, of course, it's the x x extremely symbolic that now we're back where back and we're talking about nuclear weapons. and for now and what were the white house and president biden. and the democrats are very worried about the use of a tactical nuclear weapons. but there, it's saying that there is a possibility even of the nuclear em armageddon. but i must say that right,

when democrats and republicans and a lot of other american politicians are saying that white house shouldn't use those words. and it's, sir, and president biden is only using it because he needs to get more money for the democratic party reminding everyone that it was president kennedy from the democratic party, who as saved the world. and so that it might have something to do with american elections. of course, although of keith has said many times and the whole world is saying that we shouldn't, we should be aware, we should really look at what is happening in russia. but again, the different opinions, different people, different opinions, but i'm optimistic maybe until optimistic, but i'm hoping that there will be any use of a tactical or even tactical nuclear weapons. hopefully, i don't know, but again, everyone should be on alert, of course, knowing the kremlin and president and the military service is certainly our woman.

we don't really know the process is behind actually using nuclear weapons. this stay right now, but do you think they're still this back line where military experts were examples are still in contact beyond what putin and biden specifically can say or discuss. well, they have those course contacts or were there before i showing where did ukraine you remember? i was there in geneva just a year ago where preston biden and present put in met and decided that they would resume talking about strategic issues about maybe reduction of nuclear weapons. and it all seemed very optimistic just half a year later rush and where did ukraine, and we can completely forget what's been agreed on at the time. i think there are still contacts on the military level about those issues or nuclear weapons. but on the other hand, at this moment, i would say the danger of russia using

a tactical nuclear weapons against ukraine is relatively low. because russia is trying to throw that mobilization are so getting more soldiers to fight on the battlefield and just a conventional war. i think through that roster is trying to regain the initiative and we will see that in the coming months. brief. yes, no question. do you share that optimism a it's not low, it's hi too. but if the mobilization is successful, yes, but this would mean that brush was able to destroy you clean by conventional means . but if this is not the case then and the possibility of the use of a tactical happened is really, really high. and yukon, compared to the cuban situation. we would have to discuss that in a further show. that's all we have time for right now. thank you very much to all 3 of you for joining us. thank you for watching. and remember that you are always welcome to comment on this show and all our programs in our youtube channel by

searching for to that point. hope to see you next week until then take care bye with

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a design and they are targeted. environmentalists in danger starts october 29th on d. w. ah ah, this is d w. news. and these are our top stories. president vladimir putin says russia does not want to destroy ukraine, but he added that troop mobilization was almost complete and that the bama bombardment was not over yet. moscow.