discover the world around you. subscribe to d w documentary on youtube. moscow has sets up a pre winter campaign to strike civilian infrastructure in ukraine using missiles and drowns as nato members promised to send thieves more air defense systems of my guest this week on conflict zone from the berlin foreign policy forum is nato secretary general. yes, dalton berg, how far can natal members increase support for ukraine? go to help keep, repel hooton's invasion. the systems are $9.00 and partners hub delivered out all the didn't made a huge difference. so this is one of the reasons why russia has not been able to gain the air is superior to control over their aerospace,

over ukraine as potent issues veiled nuclear threats. how strong as needles deterrence today, and how well as a position to confront security threats of the future, including those posed by china. secretary general suttonberg, welcome to conflicts own thank which missouri in the past week. ukrainian cities far from the front lines including the capital, keith had been waking up to deadly russian air strikes, which appear to be targeting infrastructure in civilian areas. what do you think? put names to achieve with these strikes. i think the aim is to reduce them the nation of ukrainian people to stand up against a brutal or russian nation of the country. but i think he will fail. she has failed in all all the attempts in trying to take control of your claim since the nation in, in february. this demonstrates the brutality of the war. it demonstrates how we

see civilian casualties and i was so critical. distributive infrastructure is attacked on it. just also highlights the importance of natal. i need to highlight some partners so that we continue to provide support to that. and last week natal members committed to send more air defense systems and other aid to ukraine. do you think the new systems will be enough to stop the onslaught of russian attacks with long range weapons including drones? i think that the systems we are not providing are making a huge difference. and that will, that made the difference in shooting down a lot of the rush miss ours jones, but also we will make even more difference in, in the future. because allies are now stepping off. we have germany has just delivered a new very advanced mall done at defense systems. but i'm doing the natal defense

minister all last week. we had several allies tonight, the states and those holders and seeing more systems, but also more ammunition. i'm surprised to existing systems and this is making difference, or the ukraine's are able to shoot down many of the incoming, the sides. on drums, you say that they'll make a difference in the future. what does the future mean to you? because presidents lensky says, 30 percent of ukraine's power stations have been destroyed in these attacks. the concern is winter is quickly approaching. people could struggle to heat their homes . how quickly can the systems get there, especially given? and you've admitted this, there are production shortages on the west. well, the systems, new dollars partners have delivered, have all of them made a huge difference. so this is one of the reasons why russia has not been able to gain the air superiority control over the air space over ukraine. and that has been a big disadvantage for the troops dropped the operation day. they expected that

they were going to take control of space, have not been able to take control of the space over ukraine. this is of course, 1st and foremost because of the skills to the nation or the crating on forces using the defense systems that will be the old soviet types of air defense. what need to allies have done is that we have provided i'm in the ship to those old systems. and then we are also bringing in new systems on the basis example is the, is the german system demonstrate in germany is now actually being important to keep it is to, to, to ukraine. and they will make them even more difference in the, in the future. reintroduce combing was also the main message from the defense municipal. so we need to ramp up support also everything from winter clothing generators, tense so we can help ensure that you can, you can operate through into let's talk

a little bit more about the urgency for action and i'd like to turn to the battlefield. now, ukraine, as we all know, has been recapturing territory on the front lines in the east and in the south. but there are some reports including today. the troops in the dunbar region had flowed almost to a halt. rushing reinforcements. meantime, have rushed the front line, attempting to break the cranes momentum. how critical do you see this moment right now? not in the future. right now for ukraine's counter offensive as the colder months settle in. some wars are by nature unpredictable, and of course there are still a lot of russian forces capabilities in ukraine and they have what you have seen of the last 2 weeks. and days is actually the, the most thetis escalation of the conflict. since the invasion in february, because if you've put together mobilization on the forces down are able to send to

the front with the partial with the illegal immigration of ukrainian territory and the dangerous nuclear rhetoric, all of dr sense, the biggest escalation since the war. so again, we need to just step up our support and of course this support has proven extremely important because this also enabled ukrainians to 1st push the russians out of the area around kiev. and then hold to the russian opens in the boss and then launch a counter offensive where they have been able to regain me. take a lot of territory in the boss and also push against. there are some forces in the salt in cuz on the ukrainian say they need more tanks in order to push forward. we're sitting here today, we're speaking from the berlin foreign policy forum, germany, a nato member, is facing criticism for not sending heavy military equipment to ukraine, including leopard 2 battle tags. from your point of view,

should germany provide the tanks to ukraine? now? germany, hans provided and is providing a lot of essential equipment to ukraine with advanced defense systems and older advanced weapons and also ammunition and. and the 2 year old allies her provided a similar types of support on all of us. it was a product armored vehicles and also a lot of extremely important to different types of support to, to do mr. secretary general, i would just like to underscore the urgency that way you have been hearing and i'd like to mention a quote, for example, from from lot is defense, mr. and i'm going to read it out to you. now he says, if germany would give to you crane proportionately, what we have given to ukraine, this war would be over. does germany and other larger

e you states need to do more? now? we all need to do more now, and that's also the message from the defense ministers when they met last week. and we also saw significant new announcements about more surprise. then we have to realize that so far, what we have done is to mostly provide surprise, surprise for support ukraine by depleting our existing stocks at some states we cannot continue to do so. so now we need also to ramp up production. and that's also also the other message from the nature of the defense. been there was that we now engaged bike with the industry to be able to replenish our existing stocks over nations of coping capabilities. so we can part of both or pulled our own the turns on the fence, but also continue to provide support to ukraine. i want to talk a little bit more about the ramp up of production and the fact that that is

a whole right now. but, but 1st put and says that he will use and i'm quoting here, all weapon systems available to defend territory. this is being seen as a thinly veiled nuclear threat. this week, nato is conducting routine nuclear drills. rushes annual exercises are usually taking place late in october. how high is your concern right now that the russian drills could be used to put nuclear weapons on hiler? we are very closely moment saying what they are doing. on the v. r. vigilant and of course in special in when they now are going to conduct a new exercise. having said that, the, the risk of any nuclear attack against the use of nuclear weapons against ukraine is low about of course, the potential impact the consequence is so big. so this is a risk, we have to take cedar stay, i would do so by conveying clearly to rush out there will be severe consequences

for shot if they use a nuclear weapon in ukraine. and also reminding russia of that the nuclear war cannot be one must never be fault. and we of course, stay beach and and moments are close to what they do so far. we haven't seen any changes in the nuclear posture, nuclear redness, but so this is on to constantly. i'm on the car and especially when they now conduct a new crisis. but given the attack on the car street bridge and occupied crimea and early october and ukraine's recent retaking of territory in the country, south and east. do you think personally that a humiliated pollutant is more likely to lash out at this time? will be careful speculating about the different risks under different scenarios. we need to be prepared for all events relative and that's exactly what the are

not the same time. we cannot be intimidated or, or suffer or, or accept blackmailing from russia. because i think that these new rhetoric that threats we have seen from rash on the aim is of course, to course, also to black by loss to stop the providing support ukraine. but if we do that, then, then piston putin will win in ukraine. and if he winced in ukraine, that will send the very dangerous message to all the leaders that when they use military force in the brutal way, violet and muscle, they will achieve their goals that will make us more vulnerable. it will make the world more dangerous. and therefore, yesterday disks with all options in this conflict, but i think the risk of electing preston putin when it's much higher than to continue to support the ukraine. as we do you, anita, members,

you have emphasize in the coding here. russia must understand that nuclear war can never be won and must never be thought. do you have any assurances that that message is being heard by putting yes, because it has been communicated so many times from the don allies from also notice states and older. and it's online that processes nuclear weapons and from the whole alarms, i'm actually, this is also something that georgia has subscribed to. so, so, so, so, so this is a well known message. you've warned of severe consequences such as we will never go into the exact away we will respond partly because that will depend so much on the kind of attack the circumstances, the context. but also because we will never give a potential adversary the privilege on knowing exactly how we will respond. they

know it will be severe consequences and we have repeated up message several times over the last weeks. but do all 30 nato allies agree on what the response would be? all dollars agree on disuse, this of any use of nuclear weapons and this has been clearly conveyed from me from also many do need to allies. second, i think we need to distinguish between a use of weapons of mass destruction or nuclear weapon in ukraine. and the attack on the nato ally attack on a nato ally will of course trigger article fire collected defense schools on to ensure that there is no room for miscalculation for misunderstanding. and we'll go about that. we have increased on your presence in eastern part with eyes increase the redness over the forces to make sure that the tackle. and it's all i will of

course, triggered a response on the lines. and we'll do that not to provoke a conflict, but to prevent the conflict to pursue our peace. and that's what i meant to the same as it was done for more than 70 years. based a new content or challenge from here, from moscow allied to meet him and he says that he thinks nate, the nato military alliance would not risk a nuclear war and directly enter the ukraine war. even if moscow struck ukraine with nuclear weapons. if the right he is not dried because what we have stated is that there will be severe consequences, but we're not aligned out or, or gone into detail what kind of consequences they will be. and of course, we have many ways to respond, and that's exactly what we have communicated while you warn though moscow severe consequences. french president manuel. malcolm says that french, a french nuclear response to russia using its own atomic arsenal against ukraine or

the region is off. the table that statement wasn't very helpful for your deterrence, was it but we have different ways of reacting and doesn't have to be any use of nuclear weapons. what we have stated again and again, is that the circumstances in which nathan would consider the use of nuclear weapon remains remote. but that doesn't take away the possibility of natal to respond on a wallace to respond if there is use of nuclear weapon by russia against the graeme . and again, if there's any attack against the need to ally, we have the whole alarms on article 5 and collective defense schools. and the purpose of that is to prevent that from happening. russia says that western states support of ukraine. you've mentioned what natal members are sending to ukraine,

help make them a direct party to the conflict with needle members supplying the majority of support. isn't it going to be difficult for members to not be seen as a direct party? how are you telling me that we are no point to the conflict, meet, meaning that we don't have forces on the ground. we don't participate in the, in the, in the, in the fighting. but what we do is that we provide support to ukraine. ukraine has the right for self defense. this is right which is enshrined in the you treat the every nation has the right to defend themselves against a war over aggression and brutal attack as seen against ukraine. and it's all laws are helping ukraine to pull the drive for self defense about those make part into the company. i'd like to ask you about nato enlargement, and in particular, ukrainian president followed amir lensky announced a bid for fast track membership of nato. he pointed to the examples of finland and

sweden. will you agree to fast track nato's bit in the next 12 months? is something new that the ukraine has, the emission of joining nato. natal position remains unchanged, natal store is open. we have demonstrated that the last years with the north macedonia hamilton area with those with finn and, and, and, and of course we also strongly committed the message of every nation has a lot to choose on policy, including of course, ukraine, at the end of the day it will be for the $13.00 on ukraine to decide the membership rochelle doesn't have any say in the, in that our main focus now is, is on ensuring that ukraine winced. the war and under for all will focuses on providing support to claim. but the question is, do you personally support data ukraine's application for fast track membership? i personally stand by the decisions we have made, which is on,

on saying that natal story remains open and that crane one day will be a member of, of, of the lines. but the, but the short term, the priority now is, is on providing support to ukraine, to enable them to make more gains on the battlefield. and then to ensure that we can end the war in a way that ensures that ukraine remains in the plantation in europe. that's a precondition for any discussion about the ship you have though, and i just like to quote you here. you have supported finland and sweden sped. you came out and you said this would be a historic moment. why do you dodge clearly answering whether or not you support ukraine in a fast track, but because i strongly believe that ukraine isn't different position. done synonyms written or opinions with our long term partners over over of natal. we have a consensus in the lines on inviting them to become members. we made that decision

out. the summit in madrid in, in may well to see in ukraine is a war going on. and the topic is therefore to provide military support ukraine. us, we do need to all as partners and this mentor support is unprecedented and really helped the ukrainians to now make gains on the battlefield. of course, the victories on the battlefield is something that belongs to the brave ukrainian soldiers. but without the support from the online, they would not been able to make these gains and, and to push the russian invading forces back us. so since last week, so if we look back in 2008, nato pledge that ukraine would eventually become an alliance member. ukraine of course, has us on paper. didn't need to give false hope. see ukraine all those years ago. know as a, this is still the ambition of the, the alliance,

but the focus has been since 2008 on the reforms on the capacity building on the, on supporting ukraine in moving towards nate to membership. so also know that you members have been working with ukraine moving towards membership . but of course, since 2014, we have been in a situation where russia hoss next to chrome ya on the on controlled eastern part of, of don't boss. so the main focus has then been to provide military support ukraine and natal last, especially united states that the kingdom, canada have trained and equipped the continent forces. not since february, but since 2014. and i am sure that you can on forces are much bigger, much better train much, but the lead. what if it's a quick now the 2014. and this is making huge difference on the battlefield,

us or speak. let's turn briefly to your strategic concept and to future threats at the chinese communist party congress president, she's paying said the china with use and i'm quoting, you're all necessary measures to secure taiwan is the next conflict for native with china. well, taiwan is all that need to a member, so i will collect the defense schools doesn't apply for taiwan. but what we see is the secretary general, how responded if time were to invade taiwan? how would nato respond? i'm not going to all john. exactly. nate, the world respond what we had stated clearly, and that's for the 1st time in our strategic concept, is that the right? so china matters for security and it's as a challenge for our values for our interest, for our security. and that is the course. china is now investing heavily in you more than many take a long range missiles nuclear weapons. we see how they don't share our values in

the weather, crack donald, them graphic and voices, forces in hong kong. then i know it is the views and also how they course countries in the region. so all of this makes it important for us to address, right? so china, not, but obviously the china, china is important also to engage with. and therefore we are both addressing the security challenges, but also the need to engage with china. we do and i met recently with chinese for ms. and that was my main, the supreme, the head of the british cyber intelligence agency. he put it this way. he describes the security threat posed by russia as affecting the weather while china's affects the climate. what do you think there is to be learned from allies support of ukraine against the russian invasion? should china move to invade or, or t illegally annex territory? that's oldest unacceptable. dot dot the country trying to grab

a land from another country. and that's the reason why we have reacted so strongly against the russian invasion of ukraine. because this is the biggest land grab since the 2nd world war world war in, in the, in europe. and also why we convey to, to, to china, of course, they should be able to at least condemn the illegal war of russia against ukraine. and also one of the reasons why we support ukrainians is to send the message to all older author, leaders that we don't accept this kind of behavior. i'd like to also ask you said last week that when we look at the situation in ukraine, that allies have had to dip into their own arsenals in order to send supplies. there were needle members too complacent because if you look just at the 1st half of the year, only 9 members were spending 2 percent of g d,

p or more on defense. now, it seems to be a bit of a scramble in order to, you know, get stock piles and increase production capacities. and it's coming a mid heart economic times. can it stay a priority? we have, we have pushed for more defense investments across the lines for many years. and of course we would like to see even more defense spending. having said that, what you have seen since 2014 is the biggest to enforcement in naples collected offense. since the end of the cold war and $2014.00 for cutting defense spending since 2014 all night long was have increased the fund spending with hundreds of millions of extra us dollars. and we have increase the redness of forces for the 1st time in history. we have backups in eastern part lines on all of this. we're triggered by the russian annexation of coming and the control over is done don't boss. so we were actually prepared when the innovation happened in february. we

actually want to gayden state since last fall shared intelligence, depicting exactly the russian plans to invade ukraine. on the day of the invasion, we activated our defense funds for that increased on inter pistons in these briefly, before we go, the secretary general must go for there to be a resolution in ukraine. yes or no? again, i will not, but then you will force me to, to given the yes or no answer to that. what we will do is that we will respond to the actions of rachada goddess who is in charge there. and we will continue to call them to end this war. it was present that started this war and putting an end this war to morrow. why drawing these forces? we have to remember that it's kristen truitt and russia stop. so i think there will be peace. the stresses and ski and ukraine stop. so i think ukraine will cease to exist as the in the plantation. and we don't want that top. and that's exactly why

we are proud to support your great nato secretary general against part. thank you very much for joining us. on conflicts out. thank you for your time with ah, with

to the point. strong opinions, clear positions, international perspectives. civilian targets and ukraine have come under heavy russian fire, including from so called kamikaze drought. and the west is mounting a response. today on to the point we ask, as the war in ukraine escalates, will nato soon be party to point to 30 minutes on a d, w. a tenderly controversial and yet

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