about ho uba fading revolution. 30 minutes on d, w. these places in europe are smashing all the records. stepped into a bold adventure. it's the treasure map for modern globetrotters. discover some of you to record breaking sites on your back youtube and now also in book form. moscow has sets up a pre winter campaign to strike civilian infrastructure in ukraine using missiles and drowns as nato members promised to send tea more air defense systems. of my guest this week on conflict zone from the berlin foreign policy forum is nato secretary general. yes, dalton burg. how far can natal members increase support for ukraine? go to help feed, repel pollutants embankment de systems. $9.00 and partners hub delivered. had

ordered, it made a huge difference. so this is one of the reasons why russia has not been able to gain the air, is superior to control over the air space over ukraine, as potent issues veiled nuclear threats. how strong as needles deterrence today, and how well is it position to confront security threats of the future? including those posed by china. ah, secretary general suttonberg, welcome to conflicts own bankers commercial home is, are in the past week. ukrainian city is far from the front lines, including the capital key, had been waking up to deadly russian air strikes, which appear to be targeting infrastructure in civilian areas. what do you think put names to achieve what these strikes? i think the aim is to reduce them, the termination of the ukranian people to stand up against a brutal or russian nation of the country. but i think he will fail. she has failed

in all in all the attempts in trying to take control of your claim since the nation in, in february. this demonstrates the brutality of the war. it demonstrates how we see civilian casualties and i will so critical attribute an infrastructure is attacked on it. just also highlights the importance of natal. i need to highlight some partners so that we continue to provide support to that. and last week natal members committed to send more air defense systems and other aid to ukraine. do you think the new systems will be enough to stop the onslaught of russian attacks with long range weapons including drove i think that the systems we are not providing are making a huge difference. and that will, that it made the difference in shooting down a lot of the rush, miss ours jones. but also we will make even more difference in,

in the future because our lives are now stepping off. we have germany has just delivered a new very advanced mode on defense systems and doing the defense minister. last week we had several allies to not to states and those holders and seeing more systems, but also more ammunition on surprise to existing systems. and this is making a difference of the ukraine's are able to shoot down many of the incoming resorts. on drums, you say that they'll make a difference in the future. what does the future mean to you? because presidents lensky says, 30 percent of ukraine's power stations have been destroyed in these attacks. the concern is winter is quickly approaching. people could struggle to heat their homes . how quickly can the systems get there, especially given? and you've admitted this, there are production shortages on the west. well, the systems ne darlise partners have delivered have all of them made

a huge difference. so this is one of the reasons why russia has not been able to gain the air superiority control over the aerospace over ukraine. and that has been a big disadvantage for the rest of the troops dropped the operation day. they expected that they were going to take control odors based have not been able to take control of their space over ukraine. this is of course, 1st and foremost because of the skills to the nation of the crating on forces using the different systems that will the old soviet types of defense. what need to allies have done is that we have provided i'm in the ship to those old systems and then we are also bringing new systems. and then the next example is the, is the german system demonstrating germany is not actually being important to capabilities to, to, to ukraine. and they will make them even more difference in the, in the future renters. colming was also the main message from the defense municipal

. so we need to ramp up support also everything from winter coding generators, tense so we can help and ensure that the pain is, can operate throughout the winter. let's talk a little bit more about the urgency for action and i'd like to turn to the battlefield. now. ukraine, as we all know, has been recapturing territory on the front lines in the east and in the south. but there are some reports including today, the troops in the dunbar, the region had flowed almost to a halt. russian reinforcements. meantime, have rushed the front line, attempting to break the cranes momentum. how critical do you see this moment right now? not in the future. right now for ukraine's counter offensive as the colder months settle in. some wars are by nature unpredictable. of course, there are still a lot of russian forces capabilities in ukraine and they

have what you have seen last week. some days is actually the, the most serious escalation of the conflict since the invasion in february. because if you put together the mobilization of the forces that are able to send to the front with the partial with a league and i'm extension of ukrainian territory. and the dangerous nuclear rhetoric, all of dr. since the biggest escalation since the war. so again, we need to just step up our support. and of course, this support has proven extremely important because this also enabled ukrainians to 1st push the russians out of the area around kia and then hold to the russian offensive in don't boss. and then launch a count of and see where they have been able to regain me. take a lot of territory in the boss and also pushing against the russian forces in the south income on the ukrainian say they need more tanks in order to push forward.

we're sitting here today, we're speaking from the berlin foreign policy forum, germany, a nato member, is facing criticism for not sending heavy military equipment to ukraine, including leopard to battle tanks from your point of view. should germany provide the tanks to ukraine, now? germany, hans provided and on is providing a lot of essential equipment to ukraine with advanced defense systems and older advanced weapons and also ammunition and the 2 year old allies. her provided a similar types of support on all of us. it was a product armored vehicles and also a lot of extremely important to different types of support to, to do mr. secretary general, i would just like to underscore the urgency that way you have been hearing and i'd like to mentioned a quote, for example from from lot is defense,

mr. and i'm going to read it out to you. now he says, if germany would give to ukraine proportionately what we have given to ukraine, this war would be over. does germany and other larger e you states need to do more? now? we all need to do more now and that was the message from the defense ministers when they met last week. and we also saw significant new announcements about more surprise. then we had to realize that so far, what we have done is to mostly provide surprise, surprise for support ukraine by depleting our existing stocks at some states we cannot continue to do so. so now we need also to ramp up production. and that's also the other message from the natal than the defense means. there's rules that we now engage by with the industry to be able to replenish our existing stocks. obama nations office capabilities. so we can part of both or pulled our own. the turns on

the fence, but also continue to provide the support to ukraine. i want to talk a little bit more about the ramp up of production and the fact that that as a whole right now, but, but 1st put and says that he will use and i'm quoting here, all weapon systems available to defend territory. this is being seen as a thinly veiled nuclear threat. this week, nato is conducting routine nuclear drills. rushes annual exercises are usually taking place late in october. how high is your concern right now that the russian drills could be used to put nuclear weapons on hiler? we are very closely monitoring what they are doing on the v are vigilant. and then of course, in special in when they now are going to conduct a new exercise. having said that, the, the risk of any nuclear attack against the can we use. so nuclear weapons against

ukraine is low about of course the potential impact the consequence is so big. so this is a risk we have to take you to stay. i would do so by conveying clearly to rush out there will be some bad consequences for our shot if they use a nuclear weapon in ukraine. and also reminding russia of that the nuclear war cannot be. one must never be fault. and we of course, stay beach and moment are close to what they do so far. we haven't seen any changes in the nuclear posture and nuclear redness, but so this is on to constantly i'm on the car and especially when they now conduct a new crisis. but given the attack on the car street bridge and occupied crimea and early october and ukraine's recent retaking of territory in the country, south and east. do you think personally that a humiliated pollutant is more likely to lash out at this time?

will be careful speculating about the different risks under different scenarios. we need to be prepared for all events relative and that's exactly what the are on the same time we cannot be intimidated or, or suffer or, or accept blackmailing from russia. because i think that these new rhetoric that threats we have seen from rash on the aim is of course, and to course also to black, but loss to stop the providing support ukraine. but if we do that, then, then the piston pitching will win in ukraine. and if he wins in ukraine, that will send a very dangerous message to all to the leaders. that when they use military force in a brutal way, violet and muscle law, they will achieve their goals that will make us more vulnerable. it will make the world more dangerous and therefore it yesterday disks with all options and this

conflict. but i think the risk of electing president putin when it's much higher than to continue to support the ukraine as we do you and 8, members. you have emphasize and i'm quoting here, russia must understand that nuclear war can never be one and must never be thought . do you have any assurances that that message is being heard by putting yes, because it does been communicated so many times from the lies from of also not the states and older. and it possesses nuclear weapons and from the whole alliance. and actually this is also something georgia has subscribed to. so, so, so, so, so this is a well known message you've warned of severe consequences such as we will never go into the exact away. we will respond partly because that will depend

so much on the kind of attack, the circumstances, the context, but also because we will never give a potential adversary the privilege or knowing exactly how we will respond. they know it will be severe consequences and we have repeated up message several times over the last weeks. but to all 30 nato allies agree on what the response would be . all dollars agree on the seriousness of any use of nuclear weapons. and this has been clearly conveyed from me, from also many of the nato allies. second, i think we need to distinguish between the use of weapons of mass destruction or nuclear weapon in ukraine and the attack on the nato allies attack on. and they do all, i will of course, trigger article, fire or collect a defense schools on to ensure that there is no room for miscalculation for

misunderstanding. and we'll go about that. we have increased on your presence in eastern party lines, increased in this over a forces to make sure that an attack on the needs all i will of course, triggered a response on the lines. i would do that not to provoke a conflict, but to prevent the conflict, to preserve peace. and that's what i meant to the same as it was done for more than 70 years. faced a new carpet or challenge from here from moscow, allied to meet him and he says that he thinks nate, the nato military alliance would not risk a nuclear war and directly enter the ukraine war. even if moscow struck ukraine with nuclear weapons. if you right, he's not drawn because what we have stated is that there will be severe consequences, but we're not aligned out or, or, or gone into detail what kind of consequences they will be. and of course,

we have many ways to respond and, and that's exactly what we have communicated while you warn, though moscow severe consequences french president emanuel, malcolm says that french, a french nuclear response to russia using its own atomic arsenal against ukraine or the region is off the table that statement wasn't very helpful for your deterrence, was it but we have different ways of reacting and doesn't have to be any use of nuclear weapons. what we have stated again and again, is that the circumstances in which nato would consider the use of nuclear weapon remains very remote. but that doesn't take away the possibility of a natal to respond on it, wallace to respond if there is use of nuclear weapon by russia against ukraine. and again, if there's any attack against the nato ally, we have the whole alarms on article 5 and collective defense schools. and the

purpose of that is to prevent that from happening. russia says that western states support of ukraine. you've mentioned what natal members are sending to ukraine, help make them a direct party to the conflict with needle members supplying the majority of support. isn't it going to be difficult for members to not be seen as a direct party? how are you telling me that we are no point to the conflict, meet, meaning that we don't have forces on the ground. we don't participate in the, in the, in the, in the fighting. but what we do is that we provide support to ukraine. ukraine has the right for self defense. this is right which is enshrined in the you. treat every nation has the right to defend themselves against a war over aggression and brutal attack as seen against ukraine. and it's all laws are helping ukraine to pull the drawing for self defense. about those make us popped into the call. i'd like to ask you about nato enlargement,

and in particular, ukrainian president followed the mirrors. the lensky announced a bid for fast track a membership of nato. he pointed to the examples of finland and sweden. will you agree to fast track nato's bit in the next 12 months? is something new that the ukraine has. the emission of joining nato. natal position remains unchanged, natal store is open. we have demonstrated that the last year is with the north macedonia, hamilton area with those with fin and, and, and then of course, we also strongly committed the message of every nation as not to choose on policy, including of course, ukraine. at the end of the day, it will be for the $38.00 on ukraine to decide the membership rochelle doesn't have any say in the, in that our main focus now is, is on ensuring that ukraine winced. the war and under, for all will focuses on providing support to claim. but the question is, do you personally support data ukraine's application for fast track membership?

i personally stand by the decisions we have made, which is on, on saying that natal story remains open on that claim one day will be a member of, of, of the alliance. but the, but the short term, the priority now is, is on providing support to ukraine. to enable them to make more gains on the battlefield and then to ensure that we end the war in a way that ensures that ukraine remains of some of the independent nation in europe . that's a precondition for any discussion about a mutual you have though. and i just like to quote you here, you have supported finland and sweden sped. you came out and you said, this would be a historic moment. why do you dodge clearly answering whether or not you support ukraine in a fast track?

but because i strongly believe that your brain is in a different position done in an uncertain or opinions written or long term partners over over of natal. we have a consensus in the lines on inviting them to become members. we made that decision out the summit in madrid in, in may well to see in ukraine is a war going on. and the topic is therefore to provide military support ukraine us. we do need to all us and partners and this mentors for it is unprecedented. and it really help ukrainians to now make gains on the battlefield. of course, the victories on the battlefield is something that belongs to the brave ukrainian soldiers. but without the support from online, they would not been able to make these gains and to push the russian invading forces back associate last weeks. but if we look back in 2008,

nato pledge that ukraine would eventually become an alliance member. ukraine, of course, has this on paper, didn't need to give false hopes to ukraine all those years ago. no. as a, this is still the mission of the the alliance. but the focus has been since 2008 on the reforms on the capacity building on the, on supporting ukraine in moving towards nate to membership. so also know that you members have been working with ukraine moving towards membership . but of course, since 2014, we have been in a situation where russia hoss next to chrome ya on the controlled eastern part of all don't boss. so the main focus has then been to provide mentors support to train and and natal. last, especially united states that the kingdom canada have trained and equipped the continent forces, not since february, but since 2014. and our hudson showed that you couldn't on forces are much bigger,

much better train much but the lead. what if it's a quick northern 2014 and this is making huge difference on the battlefield, us to speak. let's turn briefly to your strategic concept and to future threats at the chinese communist party congress president, she's paying said the china with use and i'm quoting, you're all necessary measures to secure taiwan is the next conflict for native with china. well, taiwan is not that natal members, so i collected defense schools doesn't apply for taiwan. but what we see is the secretary general, how responded if time were to invade taiwan? how would nato respond? it? i'm not going to outline exactly. i'll need the old respond. what we had stated clearly, and that's for the 1st time in our strategic concept, is that the rice of china not just for security, and it is a challenge for values for our interests, for our security. and this course,

china is now investing heavily in you more than me take a big, long range nissan's nuclear weapons. we see how they don't share our values in the weather, crack, donald, them graphic and voices, forces in hong kong. them. i know it is the views and also how they course countries in the region. so all of this makes it important for us to address, right. so china, not, but obviously the china, china is important also to engage with. and therefore, we are both addressing the security challenges, but also the need to engage with china. we do and i met recently with a chinese for ms. and that was my main message for him, the head of the british cyber intelligence agency. he put it this way, he describes the security threat posed by russia as affecting the weather while china's affects the climate. what do you think there is to be learned from allies

support of ukraine against the russian invasion? should china move to invade or, or t illegally? annex territory, that's all this unacceptable dot, dot the country trying to grab a land from another country. and that's the reason why we have reacted so strongly against the russian invasion of ukraine. because this is the biggest land grab since the 2nd world war world war in, in the, in europe. and also why we call a to, to, to china. of course, they should be able to at least condemn the illegal war of russia against ukraine. and also one of the reasons why we support ukrainians is to send the message to all older author, terry leaders, that we don't accept this kind of behavior. i. let's also ask you said last week that when we look at the situation in ukraine,

that allies have had to dip into their own arsenals in order to send supplies. there were needle members too complacent because if you look just at the 1st half of the year, only 9 members were spending 2 percent of g d, p or more on defense. now, it seems to be a bit of a scramble in order to, you know, get stock piles and increase production capacities. and it's coming a mid hard economic times. can it stay a priority? we have, we have pushed for more defense investments across the lines for many years. and of course we would like to see even more different spending. having said that, what you have seen since 2014 is the biggest reinforcement on need to collect the defense. since the end of the cold war and $2014.00 for cutting defense spending since 2014 all night long was have increased the funds spending with hundreds of millions of extra us dollars. and we have increased 11 so forces for the 1st time

in history. we have bathrooms in east and potter lines, and all of this will triggered by the russian annexation of criminal and under control over eastern don balls. so we were actually prepared when the innovation happened. in february, we actually wanted to gaden state since last fall shared intelligence, depicting exactly the russian plans to invade ukraine. on the day of the invasion, we activated the defense funds on for that increased meter pistons in these briefly before we go, secretary general must put and go for there to be a resolution and ukraine. yes or no? yeah, i will not. but then you will forced me to, to, given the yes or no answer to that. what we will do is that we will respond to the actions of rachada gorda. so who's in charge there? and we will continue to call them to end this war. it was president that started this war and putting an end, this war to morrow. why drawing is forces we have to remember that it's chris

intrusion rush, i'll stop. so i think there will be peace precedence get an ukraine stops. why thing ukraine will cease to exist as the in the plantation? i, we don't want that top, and that's exactly why we prod, support your great nato secretary general against impact. thank you very much for joining us on conflicts out. thank you for your time. thanks with ah, with

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