who lived beneath the banner of the swastika, why was music so important to the national socialists? music and the odds were to be used as part of the motivation, a film about the sounds of power and inspiring story about survival. thanks to music at home. additionally, such the channels play out well, i was the only one i was super lucky. music under the swastika starts november 19th on t w. russia has suffered key reversals on the battlefield as chaos forces of counter attacked and seized back a wide sway the territory. my guest this week from moscow is andre kalashnikov, senior fellow at the think tank, the carnegie endowment for international peace as anger mounts among some of vladimir putin supporters. how valuable is he?

he's ready to stay in power at all costs, because he considers himself with his son, and this has his own mission, and he must returns as grant greatness to russia, but the conflict of split russian society, and radicalized both supporters and opponents of the war. how serious are the calls from local lawmakers for putting to resign? the will face treason charges, and will russia pose more of a threat to the west if it wins your war? all lose it? andre collecting cough in moscow. welcome to conflict zone. thanks a lot. seems clear that ukraine has made some important military gains in recent days as things stand now, how big a set back are these ukranian advances for the kremlin? i know it's, it's a hard question because i don't think that kremlin answer is really answer to this

counter offensive military answer. i mean that political one, that psychological in order to in order to, let's say, justify possible problems for the beginning. they said that this is regrouping, or for troops, not more but i think from that is not ready to make any concessions in any diplomatic sense. and in the political sciences is ready for further war of attrition. it could be continued and the kremlin until now. next has this kind of resource been primarily military resource. so this is going to be continued. do you expect marked escalation from the kremlin in response to ukrainian moves? i think it's possible it could be natural as for from criminal site,

given the thinking it's very, very militarize. it's very aggressive. and that sense, i think they are pretty preparing right now. some see military got the same times. they must find wars for different groups of the population because there are a lot of hawks among people who are supporting put him supporting the war primarily and putting has problems was it was a support from, from just very group. because amongst supporters of put in there is a group of hawks and a group of dos from dos as a she'll kind of authentic as they want to p stocks and vice versa. so pretty much described or military or sorry, this describes a situation improper worse. but the total indifference of the population

saves. so right now, put into problem put in. so i can say that this is going to, it could just suck impulse, but very problematic situation. pushing i tell you from what you say there will be people, even among the elite to asking themselves if demon putin is still up to the job. we have the chechen leader runs on, cut their off, who doesn't hide his anger. he said, if today or tomorrow, changes are not made in the conduct of the military operation, i'll be forced to go to the country leadership to explain the situation on the ground. that's pretty direct and that's pretty insulting, isn't it? to the president. since he has to spend the fangs, it's got a full the stress of that. he's a soldier for him, then simply obeying him and she can implement any commands from kremlin or the sickly his. he is such

a sincere person. when he's describing the current situation, i think he will get some science of command from kremlin to, to do you to all the stuffing because it's too sensitive for kremlin. this is an excess of one of the persons who are involved in this terrible disaster in this terrible conflicts. i don't think that could be serious. yes. yes, it is noticeable for a lot of people. but as the same, tam time generally doesn't change. the public opinion around doesn't change the situation and does not influence the military decisions and other people are responsible for a military answer to ukrainians. so it's symptomatic but it is

still not so dangerous for food when when talking about was symbol discontent inside 0 it's i think we can witness different kinds of discontents, but people are trying to be in use his this leads because they care they afraid of their position and sizes, established rooms. we're also seeing for the 1st time political moves against the president from elected representatives will be at that local municipal level in both moscow and st. petersburg public calls for him to resign. and in the case of st. petersburg called for him to face charges of treason. isn't it extraordinary? these moves on how serious do you think they are or how serious could these become? this is very interesting phenomenon because politically, it is not so important for kremlin. it is not

a danger for crammed them of any kind it because municipal gypsies do not play any significant role as a political system. but at the same time it's symptomatic that people don't feel fear. the situation where they could the persecutors for this kind of letters and also monsieur, the answer is very sultry and to everyone who express she's almost view on all the situation could be persecuted by and by the scientist in terms of the criminal code or administrative court it's unpleasant, but nevertheless, it was threat such prophetic from the situation and then say, once openly, voluntarily express discontent was put in sessions. this is something you know, special from the size of municipal tissue tis and maybe this is soon you

sign of from growing discontent. in science, not only lead butts inside the society as such because municipal differences closer to society than any kind of another state level for deputies, regional level or federal level. what happens if these actions spread to other municipal authorities or to moscow itself? how dangerous could that be for the president, the staples to the suppressed? and for the moment, nobody paid a lot of attention. tweets, said just possible that all the people has done, has this kind of levers could be in trouble. ah, i'm afraid that it's going to disprove that are all around the whole russian. in that case, yes,

it's dangerous promot primarily not for putting bucks for deputies again, but it's really important sets civil society still here until society still express and she is not only using such tools coming to the streets or broadcasting because journalist but a writing class or so to topple sure, it is accusing, put in, in a states treason. this is an important sign up till now. moscow has done everything. what seems to have done everything to pretend that life is just the same as ever in russia now mass funerals, no weeping mothers on television. the ballet and our proceedings are getting on the way and moscow museums galleries are open. the poppy boats going up and down the moscow river is this fictional no malice t about to come to

a sudden end to think we'll see full scale mobilization now. yeah, this is the right term fictional, the mileage. put his creates these impression then the people are creating it. specialists and persons in name big cities. ah. because for instance, in whose fun ellis of his quiet kids are good, such a state manager, moscow must leaf. so normal life, in order to be distracted from all this atrocities some disaster is ukraine in france. and the rest stepped from put aside, was not to announce general mil, military mobilization, military address. because it could provoke discontent among criminal costs. millions of people who are living in the big city or middle says they don't want to go to war. we can talk about, let's say college troops which are sitting there. holmes, watching tv ah,

in differently supporting the special operation. but as the same time, they don't think about those lean, pull them into real war into trenches. this is more for the poor population for groups of population, for people from republics, distances, provinces who could be soldiers. and this is for so here up to tracks for this is a jewel, isn't in brains for russians, especially, and middle classes. here is one trip. i am living my private life. as it was always, i am concentrating on the surviving as it, in other treacherous states. rec, so people put in, initiated this war ortiz, he knows better. i will not pay too much attention to his arguments,

but he is always right. i will support that's indifferent, plain not fiercely so and put him gives me an opportunity to concentrate on my own business on my own problems. i don't wait for any help for him from him, but it's quite who's that he doesn't and often to my problems. so it is useful for himself because she can't continue this war. i'm not paying for much retention. i'm not attracting too much attention to it because atrocities people are trying not to pay a lot of attention to bad news. want to be on society for goodness natalie's a set of evil. and because of that they, they prefer to block bed information. and that is quite good for put in right now. your one of the sharpest russian critics of the war in ukraine and that

e mail putin. one of the sharpest critic, still writing and still in russia. do you not feel on the threat yourself personally doing this? you know, there is such a special term us color that risk, that so who could say that i am a scholar at risk but there are very different reasons for different people to stay in russia or to leave russian. and i know a lot of my colleagues and friends for us to hear. some of them are persecuted, some of them are arrested, for instance, micro political science system, leticia and then it goes month by this only an administrator for persecution, for him. of the people, as veterans relief, the russian and the case of persecution for any person here is better not to play

this game with us for it is because it's dangerous from the front of your physical health and possible arrests, etc, etc. but from the point of view, for real research, from the point of view of understanding what is happening here from the point of view of your own attitude towards this regime. this is quite important to be here. so this is my country. my country is not equal to put his country, and i prefer to be here because i don't feel in a get a guilt so i don't feel any responsibility for us to trust us. so this is my church. ah, but again, in some circumstances it's a bull to, to, to leave the country just like it was inevitable for primarily prominent

journalists to leave russia in order to contribute information, real alternative information for the russian population. they can do it from inside, until now i can broadcast and i can write, but it could finish in any moment. couldn't, doesn't scare you though. darcy, he is a real de sais for who is sincerely assured that nobody can shatter issues authority that he, she has mission to create new server and she knew greatness to russia and she must consolidate people around him. and people are not ready to be consolidated . they are simply national 3. she's come a column and i miss for in that sense of cetera. he's not the presidential, the whole russian handle rushed. in that sense. ah,

maybe he respects, she's cima. she respects his enemies, but it doesn't mean that they put them be persecuted because of this respectable status. so he says, sure is that he's doing ever seen or writes you written at length about your country past, present future. but i was struck by how you recently connected the dots. russia you said, is i'm lucky with it's future because it's on lucky with it's passed. it suggests your country is changed to what a violent history and can't find its way to breaking free from that. is that what you meant to convey? i mean, that's one of the grounds for consider geez, the glorious past and very specific interpretation of the history. which is really falsification for your own history because she takes dark pages this of

this past and he is what we're fortune present. he's whitewash and the stolen his time. ah, and in that sense, historical policy for him, this is a tool for governing discounts. ah, he craves false glory is fast and this is a ground for consolidation around him is an inheritor of his grades. so if you will take a real pass, you will, you should be ready for any kind of normal reading coast as fast. we can make conclusions from its best conclusions, horrible conclusions, but this is a ground for going somewhere for the future. just like just like it wasn't perestroika test we, when we, we became to to know something about ourselves,

not our past. it was, it became an open window for the future for moving from a horrible past normal future to westernize it and modernize it's russia right now as a senior license person. so it's very important to recreate understanding of your own posts in cable to know and to admit that some pages in this past was horrible. were horrible. you said that put in whitewash is the style in this period now, but it wasn't always that way. 5 years ago, he stood by the so called wall of grief in moscow and said it was important to remember the repression that took place in soviet society. and now children are taught in your schools. the old soviet union didn't repress anybody. what changed

putin do? you think i, i don't believe in the abolition of pretence views option in the year to solve them when she only inches away. total power i. comparison was muscle miscellany, in terms of she can restore some to tell terry and features which were typical for the past. and he simply adapted to the current circumstances from the beginning he was inheritor of. he also had to support some ideas about democracy. good relations with west, et cetera, et cetera. but now he is absolutely sincere. he is free from politeness. he lost his shame, absolutely disrupted all the class was arrest. so he subsided, russia, he express consent, was it?

so for humor, repression was this is ruth, she admits he is ready to say that there were repressions, but at the same time, ah, she can't. the meets. and she came to law to speak people to me that it was so significant since history. maybe it was to which could so help her stalin to rule to create an order. so it's kind of a contradictory approach seats. but nevertheless, right now to whitewashed everything last week your group published research showing that the war had divided rather than united russians. and both sides had been radicalized by this conflict. what do you think will be the last

thing, effects of this polarization now in russian society? yes, rushes pleads here a good russians and bed rations, as i said. so anybody who is against us is not our l. i and that sense we can say both citizens for the 2nd shorts and russia label, says for insurance for simply people who are not trust war. see for top a story is and yes, the problem is that the polar is ation leads to radicalization of for the us people who are supporting, put in a party can fiercely right now and put in hope when a support ticket also became more sure. so not supporters, if you there are some sleet society to different groups. as i said,

even amongst supporters of protests, there are people who prefer, for instance, more hawkish approached as a war and the group for which prefers less focused approach. but generally speaking, this is police and it, it has living to, let's say, hybrid civil war between the russian group. so the population not physically is not visible as a physical city. real, real war between different groups who are fighting was it said, it is more about entities. so where it's not supporters of put in this as again to the citizens. second sort just go from, i'm sorry to interrupt you, but we're running out of time. i just want to, to get to a couple more points,

you say that russia is at a dead end, a historical dead end as you put it. what did you mean by that? come move forward, can't move backwards. if, if it's true that it's, it's a dead end, what happens next? destination must recreate itself. she will visit musket, we'll see that's a receipt is a k. but i feel as a sickness, fear assaulting him. kind of a despair is unusual and people have a petticoat and another 2 guest new incentives for new development. we need a new government, let's say such a simple approach put in must disappear in a political way. i mean, they know the to catch another to find a next it's from miles is dead. and in order to get your incentive for

a new development for modernization of this country. and one more problem is says a problem of collective responsibility for, for we are waiting for a little discussion civility. and we are involved in discussions right now about collecting for responsibility. and it's different with collective guilt are responsible for it. so we will be in a situation just like her german nation after the 2nd world war. what happens if putin can't claim victory? the if the reversals on the battlefield continue? will he pose more of a threat to the west if he wins or if he loses? i think it's substantively equal. she can be dangerous. being for terrorist, he can be danger bank in a, in a defeat situation. but she's really could be coroner,

it could be not insulted by, by the said defeat. and of that sense, she could be more and more dangerous because he has a nuclear weapon. this is a main problem. but generally speaking, he can describe his defeat as a victory for the population and population will accept. it's again the indifferently, because here is a fatty crumbs, us war and people are waiting for the end of the story. is the same time understand that it could be prolonged at the longest war and say, morally, ready to the promulgation of this disaster. very briefly, do you think he's just desperate to stay in power at all costs? yes, he's ready to stay in power at all costs, because again, she considers himself as of this sort of his own mission and he must returns was

grant greatness to russia. unfortunately, this is really sold psychology under kalashnikov. it's been good to have you on the program. thank you very much indeed. thank you. thank you so much. blue blue with

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