how you doing what we're doing? and that's why your green revolution is absolutely necessary. euro revealed, the future is being determined now, how documentary theory, who show you how people, companies and countries are rethinking everything, and making major changes. you revealed this week on d. w with a fatal missile blast, and poland serves as a potent reminder that the ukraine conflict could easily escalate to draw in nato. despite recent developments in ukraine's favor amongst those developments, russia's decision to withdraw its forces from the key regional city of hassan, ukrainian troops reclaimed the city to the joy of exhausted residents. and to

praise from presidents lensky, who called at the beginning of the end of the war, yet far from winding down russia has been ramping up missile attacks on critical energy infrastructure, leaving millions of ukrainians without power. our question this week after hassan, what are russia's strategic goals? hello and a very warm welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to introduce our guests. maria mckeever is editor in chief of the a russian broadcaster aust vest tv based here in germany. constantine fun. hammerstein reports on defense and security issues for the german news magazine dash ego. and joining us remotely from bon is my ukranian colleague, roman gorenca,

who works with the ws ross and dest. great to have all of you with us. constantine . let's start with that missile blast that killed 2 people in poland. poland, of course is a nato member. the consensus seems to be that the incident was not a deliberate attack by russia. do you share that view and how quickly could this have provoked escalation? if experts had not reached that conclusion, well, i shall, etc. but what everybody knows is that it was in fact aim accident. they've a ukrainian anti or defense missile, just missed the target and do, went down and poland and kill 2 people. but of course, it was a very dangerous situation. i mean, just imagine it would have been, am washington tech or a wash and provoked accident them. we had a completely different ball game. i don't think that this would have provoked

a article 5 response by nato. but, but of course it has, it would have escalated the situation very seriously. maria, the deadly explosion occurred as russia has been pounding critical infrastructure, energy, water utilities, across the country, including very close to the polish border, is put in, playing with fire. basically she plays with fire from the very beginning actually from 2014 probably even. yes. so and i just said answer you yes, of course. and also the starting a war with natural country is the last. thank you once now and, and just had them some conversation with their my moscow friends about it, which is more and more complicated sir with every day because many people just laughs and who stay there. they have some, i mean, understanding of what's going on and they close a door,

probably some advisors of government guys. i mean, so on this a, that's probably even he just dreaming about being in swain c. 3 or february. now, just to change his mind and not starting all this war and whether he might change his mind to something we want to pick up on just a little bit later. but let me go now to roman and roman the bombardment of ukraine, cities and power infrastructure that we've seen just recently was the most massive missile attack since the war began. the us ambassador to the un is accusing putin, essentially of trying to freeze ukrainians who have no power into submission. that hardly sounds like we're seeing the beginning of the end of the war, which is what president zalinski said on his visit to her son. not at all, so we have to brace ourselves for a loaner war. definitely months ahead,

probably years. so russia is basically trying to do 2 things. it is trying to go in and offensive in the east of ukrainian don barza with which is not so successful. it is not successful at all in the south and it has much more success with such strikes missile strikes we've seen in the past days. and what is new maybe is that raja is trying to hate ukrainian guess stations and it's a gas industry because the grain is producing gas as well for its own demand. and this gives us an idea water is aiming at it is aiming at to before winter and winter is very, very cold in ukraine to destroy the ukraine in power structure, the power grid, and the guess energy supplies so, so it is, it has already been taken over a nuclear power plant in a preacher, it is,

it could try to take control of other power plants, nuclear power plants in ukraine, and by hitting the critical infrastructure infrastructure of course rushes, trying to so to say, bomb ukraine, back to the negotiating table. the explosion in poland and the barrage of attacks on ukrainian infrastructure were occurring just as world leaders were meeting in bali, half a world away. to the surprise of many, they wound up issuing a joint declaration condemning the russian war on ukraine. ah, planting trees for the environment and freedom, but the peaceful statement by the g. 20 participants was abruptly drowned out by reports of new russian missile attacks in ukraine. and the reactions were suitably sharp. normal with world news, your volume seeking make for peace, funky prudence,

striking civilian targets. children. i mean this summer and my, my words are yours, barbara corners to receive the north. at our summit, everyone talked about how to end the russian war. this is even the russian delegate, made comments on the subject. and then nearly $100.00 russian missiles hit ukraine, burning down residential buildings destroying power plants again, hundreds of cities were left without electricity, water, heat, and internet. some of the is putin's russia finally isolated from the global community? and let me put that question straight away to constantine constantine this g 20 a statement. at the end of the meeting. that apparently, according to the indonesian host, was reached unanimously. meaning it would have had some kind of buy in from russian allies, china and india. do you think it makes a difference? of course, it makes a difference because russia is completely isolated to the ukranian president

zalinski was talking not about g 20, but to about g 19. and if you saw the pictures and of just love of was sitting there in a t shirt somewhere under palm trees and it showed, i think exactly where washer stance in the diplomatic world which isolated of course not everybody is really a, as a stake in this conflict in europe, african latin american states don't have the same stake as europeans or american surf. but i think the declaration really shows that to us is isolated to him. so it's a big blow for, for, for the russian diplomatic efforts. maria constant, he mentioned a lever off the foreign minister of russia sitting under the palm trees. but in fact, he was sitting in the room at the g. 20 meeting when the president lensky gave his virtual speech to the group and lever off, then fired back with

a long set of accusations. are essentially once again declaring russia to be the true victim. in this conflict, would you expect the g 20 statement and this by, in, from china and india to whatever extent it's there to actually make a difference for vladimir putin in his calculations. actually, plasma was and didn't come to the 20, not just because he has something more important to do is because he expected such reaction of course. and this is basically nothing so new because last month so which we're counting is so wold shows i him that he's not freights. what's he's doing and he's, he's going to be completely insulated, visit you and constant in told before. but also, i'm not agree with any question about india because i just heard last week, i think that was sir. and some governments minister who declared that what

is goods and lead to prosperity of our people we're going to do here, was talking about gas prices. and this is very generous for engine is now, i mean, fashion, gas. so, and they're going to continue so completely let it in one sense. everybody's disagree with the war itself, but it's not about traits, not probably for ins and china, so so moly, isolated, so you don't know they can shine. and in north dakota, real pressure on vladimir putin, china, probably. i expect that because say there is moments when it could be some new rachel relations of china and west and if it will be sol. so china, which us was good for, for that country. in that sense probably something will be different. and roman, in fact, chinese foreign minister wang ye was one of the very few people to actually meet face to face with sergei, lover of chinese media report that la for off of said that

a nuclear war cannot be one. i'm quoting here and must never be fought. so coming back to the question of potential escalation of this conflict, what if anything, does that tell us about russia's intentions? well, it is important of course, that the mold leaders of the descent 20 summit and said that there should be no nuclear threat, no nuclear war in ukraine as well. so and the danger was there because there was russian rhetoric threatening your grand with nuclear weapons. and especially very harsh rhetoric by the former president, meeting him at video and maybe some others are so ice. i would say that after the summit, maybe this danger is not over, but it is, it has diminished, are important, is that in the declaration, and there was a condemnation of the war, there was the war itself. the word war was in the declaration in russia is still

called special military operation. and if you're, if you remember in the year 2014, in the summer during the summer in australia, there was only mentioning of geopolitical tensions. so no mentioned in your view. cray, no mention of any kind of war, and that was already after the annexation of crimea, and after the war in don boss in the east and you can actually start it. so coming back to the question, if russia is isolated, it is not as isolated as some might hope for in the west countries like ro, china and india, and also turkey, a very ambivalent and this remains. so. so where basically where we were in march when the general assembly adopted that resolution condemning this war about a $140.00 countries cuts a tin roman says he thinks that the threat of potential nuclear escalation might be slightly less in part due to the declaration i'd like to know your take on that in

us a strategically speaking with this war, looking less winnable for russia. we'll talk in a minute about why that might be the case with it. looking less winnable. do you think put him would be more likely to turn to some kind of nuclear weapons? i don't think so. i think eve, i mean diplomatically the, the, the, the threat as well as diminished. but i think mate only does make any sense to use nuclear weapons. and there's even the question whether m washington would be able to, to use them. because it's very complicated meter you maneuver to do this. they are not trained for this. bobby would be it would kill more washing soldiers than ukrainians. and i think it's a lot of tockets fifths, of course. but even in you probably know better whole our russian talk shows work. but, but even in the wash and talk shows, as far as i know is the, the with, with,

was told don in the last couple of days and weeks. i see maria nodding over there. yes sir. look, i'm not putting yeah. as in just a bond graph, and so i don't know what is in it in his head is, and the standards are that nukes are the very last press, you couldn't use anything after that. so this is our greatest hope. so let's talk about what other threats might be on the table. the war looks less winnable for put in not least due to his forces withdraw from cas son, which was the 1st and only regional capital in ukraine that russia was able to capture and hold strategically. it's a turning point, but in which direction? ah, residents of harrison, both young and old, are still celebrating the city's liberation. after 8 months of russian occupation, people wave ukrainian flag and embraced their soldiers.

short mazata limits. we have no electricity, no water, no internet, no communications, no heating. but there are no russians either. and that's why we're happy we're. she'll sleep now whom what the, what do we feel? ukraine was, is and will be. no one will be able to conquer it, crush it. we are united as never before. the ukranian president has also visited the liberated city. his surprised visit is a show of strength to russia. is at the beginning of the whole day and of the war. of course, you see i was wrong army, we are step by step gamino dollar to all a concert into all the timber of your body. there, there is, but the war is not over yet. despite reports from ukrainian sources that their army has recently,

we captured around 100 in any villages in the south. heavy fighting continues in the east was scarce than just a flash in the pan in the end. maria, how do you interpret proteins decision to approve an orderly withdrawal from house on as opposed to simply seeking to try to hold it despite on going losses. do you think it represents a real shift in put in strategy? oh, i think it's, sir, it's changed in the war, but we will see the circumstances not very fast, and they see that will be probably some months we've been year until the war a somehow will ends unfortunately. but the seal, there is a huge slap. so him to putting because he declared his song to russian theory, tory one business is just go force and back with the troops in other countries here,

tory and another thing had to go back from you on your own as he thinks about the territories. so his strategy didn't work out and sold my realization on all this poor guys who was sent to the front. they couldn't do anything for him. they don't want to fight briskly. and sir ukrainians defends in absolutely heroically. and yet this is just results. roman, the jubilant ukrainian forces that we saw in that report clearly of no inclination to take a break after this success. they've been continuing to strike deep behind russian 4 lines of it in particular along the eastern bank of the denise pro river. where do you think that things go from here? what do you see as being in store? well i'm, i think we should watch and on thus the east of ukraine very closely because this is where the most severe fighting is taking place. and this is where it is

important for putting to have a kind of we're reading situation. so he wants to, to occupy the whole region of the nascar. he failed in that. so, and this is where we have reports that the troops from here so on, russian troops are be moved to their be moved to the city of baltimore, which is a small, small town actually. but it is on a strategic cross road in between in north and south of the buildings region. and this is where i expect the russians will intensify the fighting. and we have to understand that are those missile strikes we've seen in the last days or the russians is continuing. now they are also a kind of a response to the, to the fact that putting had to give up her son. and there was a lot of frustration in his supporters. so this is also an opportunity for him to show, look, i'm hitting your crane so ukraine is in pain. so don't worry,

we'll, we'll win. this is the message also constant in some nato officers including the head of the u. s. joint chiefs of staff, general milli, have suggested that a winter lull in fighting would be a good moment for ukraine and russia to sit down at the table and try to negotiate . keith says that a stalemate would simply allow russia to consolidate its gains, whose right? the ukrainians because when they have momentum at the moment it's, it was the, the house on retreat by the witness was a very significant militant military blow to the russian army. good. was completely different from the the ukrainian victory am hark. if the they were very fast, the russians were surprised, they didn't have their strongest forces there. but in the house one they had, this one was forced elite troops and they've, they've been edison so, so it was really a significant loss for the russians. the momentum as on the ukrainian side and it

would put him once he wants to have a pause because he wants to rebuild his army and he needs to we both his army and if, if the ukrainians pressure on her, he will have problems too too. we concede, we or we built his army, and in fact maria, he needs to rebuild because at least according to the same us, john rather had of the joint chiefs of staff. the casualties on both sides have been 100000. each very serious casualties are so, of course, for the russian side, how long can brush a sustain, those kind of law says not just in terms of the military picture, but also of course, politically. do you see any indication in russia of a genuine willingness to look for a negotiated settlement? this is very interesting question, but it couldn't be a short answer actually, because sir propaganda works really brilliantly. i mean,

in bed sense because people receiving coffins with by this of their dearest ones and they do not do anything and they do not ask questions or they are very angry and say ukraine, what you've done to my son. and we've seen this video as like about one woman who is crying in their boss and says she was shouting this exactly words not putting which attention to my it, ukraine. and zir. people mostly just tried to survive this, her stamps, and did not think about the war at all in russia. i understand this is very hard to believe in to understand and to receive for me is to receive it. this is really hard, but s and the send that people just leave their life and trying not to think about putting decided something. and it doesn't matter for me, scarce on rationalist is on ukrainian. so we'll just strive to get some money and

get through this difficult times. better like people are to speak about it. yeah, roman, let me ask you about a resolve in ukraine as we mentioned, millions of ukrainians facing massive powder power outages, emerging evidence that the russians occupiers in her son applied torture to civilians and evidence that many, many or ukrainian children has been separated from their families does all of that add up to a likelihood that we will see ukrainian resolve strengthened or exhausted while there is no, no indication of ukrainian resilience diminishing so it is just her, it is remaining on a very high level. and although how those hardships, although, so missile strikes, adjuster make, make ukrainian population even more resilient and saying we are ready to be to leave, or just the, as the landscape portrait or some

a few months ago in his speech, he said, we already addressing russians. i think he said, we will leave without light without electricity, without supplies, but without you. and i think this is the spirit of ukraine at the moment. konstantin, the german military economists, marcus k up said this that it would just immediately after the her son or withdrawal, that in fact rush is already lost the war but that he believes fighting will continue as long as next september or october. will the west keep weapons deliveries coming that long, even as their apartments grow colder and our, their firms are lacking. the energy to keep production are going and the economies are sliding into recession. i don't see any m diminishing of the you, the western resolve not, not in germany, although the numbers are going up for sort of the, the enter multi section. but,

but it's, it's still strong in that as many other western countries. it's also strong and i think the, the missile attacks on civil targets now is actually, you are good for the resolve because it shows it's the, the, the tell was nature of the russian regime. and that you have to fight them whatever it costs. and so, so i'm, i think a more optimistic that, that the west will stand together this christian i think this so so propaganda thing to say that ah, the wes helps ukraine now the rest house itself because we're starting with a pool and sedation. yeah. this is very, very close. so the rest basically defense. it's awesome. i also see through this like not strong support, but this is the only way. what's the 1st lot. yeah. let me come back to our title and it is after her son. what are russia strategic?

goals, roman in a word. strategic goals are, are the same to haven't changed. we choose to or destroy ukraine as a state, as a nation. and to threaten the worst. maria agreed? absolutely. and skip it forward. the main said, did you go from forcing his keeping his bower? that's why he invented all this stuff with the russian. walton and bates, him ukraine. would you also agree, katya shane her son is a turning point and none the less, the strategic goals are identical to at the beginning of the war. you don't really know what book putting us up to but, but basically i think nothing has changed. thank you very much to all of you for being with us. thanks to roman in bob, maria and konstantin here in the studio. and thanks to all of you out there for turning in. if you're watching our program on you to please send us your comments and thoughts were eager to hear them. thanks so much. bye bye.

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listen to music. the swastika starts november 19th on d w. ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin, russia launching a new wave of missile attacks on cities across you, craved with winter closing in russian forces are again targeting the country's power grid, knocking out power and heat for thousands of people. keep says that several people have been killed also coming up denied a court in.