steve gonzalez, will i and will how you know, if i had known that the boat would be that small, i never would have gone on the trail. i would not have put myself and my parents in danger. who thought of the fema, it'll direct you to sleep, who love one centreville hospital and live with them. i had serious problems on a personal level and i was unable to live. there wasn't good of it. oh, you want to know their story? deliverance verified and reliable information for my grants. a fatal missile blast in poland serves as a potent reminder that the ukraine conflict could easily escalate to draw in nato. despite recent developments in ukraine's favor amongst those developments, russia's decision to withdraw its forces from the key regional city of hassan, ukrainian troops reclaimed the city to the joy of exhausted residence,

and to praise from president soleski, who called at the beginning of the end of the war yet far from winding down rush has been ramping up missile attacks on critical energy infrastructure leaving millions of ukrainians without power or question this week after hassan. what are russia's strategic goals? hello, and a very warm welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to introduce our guests. maria mckeever is editor in chief of the russian broadcaster aust vest tv based here in germany. constantine fun. how much time reports on defense and security issues for the german news magazine. dish ego . and joining us remotely from by is my ukrainian colleague roman cancer anchor,

who works with t w's ration desk. great to have all of you with us. constantine. let's start with that missile blast that killed 2 people in poland. poland, of course is a nato member. the consensus seems to be that the incident was not a deliberate attack by russia. do you share that view and how quickly could this have provoked escalation? if experts had not reached that conclusion? well, i share with it, but everybody knows is that it was in fact a accident that a ukrainian anti or defense missile just missed the target and do, went down in poland and killed 2 people. but of course it was a very dangerous situation. i mean, just imagine it would have been, am washington tech or a wash and provoked accident them. we had

a completely different ball game. i don't think that this would have provoked a article 5 response by nato, but, but of course it has, it would have escalated the situation very seriously. maria, the deadly explosion occurred as russia has been pounding critical infrastructure, energy, water utilities, across the country, including very close to the polish border is put in, playing with fire. basically he plays was fire from the very beginning. actually from 2014 probably even. yes. so and i just said, answer you, yes, of course. and also the starting a war with natural country is the last. thank you once now ands and just had them some conversation with their my moscow friends about it, which is more and more complicated sir with every day because many people just laughs and who stay there. they have some, i mean,

understanding of what's going on and they close a door, probably some advisors of government guys. i mean, so on this a that's probably even he just dreaming about being in 23 or february. now, just to change his mind and not starting all this war and whether he might change his mind to something we want to pick up on just a little bit later. but let me go now to roman and roman the bombardment of ukraine, cities and power infrastructure that we've seen just recently was the most massive missile attack since the war began. the us ambassador to the un is accusing protein essentially of trying to freeze ukrainians who have no power into submission. that hardly sounds like we're seeing the beginning of the end of the war, which is what president zalinski said on his visit to house on not at all. so we

have to brace ourselves for a loaner war. definitely months ahead, probably years. so russia is basically trying to do 2 things. it is trying to go in and offensive in the east of ukrainian, don barza with which is not so successful. it is not successful at all in the south, and it has much more success with such strikes, missile strikes we've seen in the past days. and what is new, maybe is that russia is trying to hate ukrainian guess stations, and it's a gas industry because the grain is producing gas as well for its own demand. and this gives us an idea what russia is aiming at. it is aiming at to before winter and winter is very, very cold in ukraine to destroy the ukraine and power structure, the power grid, and the guess energy supplies are so it is, it has already been taken over

a nuclear power plant in as a procedure. it is, it could try to take control of other power plants, nuclear power plants in ukraine, and by hitting the critical interest is infrastructure. of course rushes trying to so to say, bomb ukraine, back to the negotiating table. the explosion in poland and the garage of attacks on ukrainian infrastructure were occurring just as world leaders were meeting in bali, half a world away. to the surprise of many, they wound up issuing a joint declaration condemning the russian war on ukraine. ah, planting trees for the environment and freedom, but the peaceful statement by the g. 20 participants was abruptly drowned out by reports of new russian missile attacks in ukraine. and the reactions were suitably sharp. normal were rural is here in bali are seeking make for the whole

piece. okay. goodness striking civilian targets children. i mean it's just it's, it's almost in my, my words like yours barbara corners to receive it. at our summit, everyone talked about how to end the russian war. even the russian delegate made comments on the subject. and then nearly 100 russian missiles hit you crane burning down residential buildings destroying power plants. again, hundreds of cities were left with that electricity, water heat, and internet. some of the is putin's russia finally isolated from the global community. and let me put that question straight away to constantine constantine. this g 20 a statement. at the end of the meeting that apparently, according to the indonesian host, was reached unanimously. meaning it would have had some kind of buy in from russian allies, china and india. do you think it makes a difference?

of course makes a difference because russia is completely isolated. the ukranian president zalinski was talking not about g 20, but to about g 19. and if you saw the pictures and just love of was sitting there in a t shirt somewhere on the palm trees and it showed, i think exactly where washer stands in the diplomatic world. that's isolated. of course, not everybody is really a, as a stake in this conflict in europe. african latin american states don't have the same stake as europeans or american surf. but i think the declaration really shows that to us is isolated to him. so it's a big blow for, for, for the russian diplomatic efforts, maria constant, he mentioned a lever off the foreign minister of russia sitting under the palm trees. but in fact, he was sitting in the room at the g. 20 meeting when the president lensky gave his virtual speech to the group and lever off, then fired back with

a long set of accusations. are essentially once again declaring russia to be the true victim. in this conflict, would you expect the g 20 statement and this by, in, from china and india to whatever extent it's there to actually make a difference for vladimir putin in his calculations. actually, plasma was and didn't come to the 20, not just because he has something more important to do is because he expected such reaction of course. and this is basically nothing so new because the old lost musser, which we're counting is so wold shows him that he is not frights. what's his dune and his he is going to be completely isolated as you and constant in told before. but also i'm not agree with in a question about india because i just heard last week, i think that was sir. and some governments minister who declared that what

is goods and lead to prosperity of our people we're going to do. he was talking about gas prices, and this is very generous for engine is now, i mean, fashion, gas. so, and they're going to continue. so completely let it in one sense. everybody's disagree was the war itself, but it's not about traits, not probably for ins and china, so so small leave, isolated, so you don't think it will shine and in don't, according real pressure on vladimir putin. china, probably. i expect that because say there is moments when they could base, am you rachel relations of china and west and if it will be sol. so china, which us was good for. well, that country, in that sense probably something will busy friends and roman in fact, chinese foreign minister wang ye was one of the very few people to actually meet face to face with sergei. love,

rough chinese media report that love rough uh said that a nuclear war cannot be one. i'm quoting here and must never be fought. so coming back to the question of potential escalation of this conflict, what if anything, does that tell us about russia's intentions? well, it is important of course that the mold leaders of the g send sort of 20 summit. i said that there should be no nuclear threats, no nuclear war in ukraine as well. so and the danger was there because there was russian rhetoric threatening your grand with nuclear weapons, especially very harsh rhetoric by the former president, mit mit, mit video, and maybe some others in so ice i would say that after the summit, maybe in this danger is not over but it is, it has diminished, are important, is that in the declaration, and there was a condemnation of the war,

there was the war itself. the word war was in the declaration. in russia, it is still called special military operation. and if you're, if you remember in the year 2014, in the summer during the summer in australia, there was only mentioning of geopolitical tensions. so no mentioned in your view. cray, no mention of any kind of war. and that was already after the annexation of crimea, and after the war in don boss in the east, and you can actually started. so coming back to the question, if russia isolated it is not as isolated as some might hope for in the west coaches like raw china and india and also turkey very ambivalent and this remains so. so where basically where we were in march when the general assembly adopted that to resolution condemning this war about a 140 countries, a cuts a tin roman says he thinks that the threat of potential nuclear escalation might be

slightly less in part due to the declaration i'd like to know your take on that in us a strategically speaking with this war, looking less winnable for russia. we'll talk in a minute about why that might be the case with it looking less winnable. do you think put him would be more likely to turn to kind of nuclear weapons? i don't think so. i think eve, i mean diplomatically the, the, the, the threat has as diminished. but i think may totally does make any sense to, to use nuclear weapons. and there's even the question with washington should be able to, to use them because it's very complicated. me tell you maneuver to do this. they are not trained for this. probably it would be it would kill more wash. and so just than ukrainians, and i think it's a lot of tockets face, of course. but even in you probably,

but i know better whole of russian talk shows work but. but even in the wash and talk shows as fires, i have known as the the weather was torn down in the last couple of days and weeks . i see maria nodding over there. yes sir. look, i'm not 14. yeah. i've been just a born grass. and so i don't know what is in it in his head is, and the standards are that nukes are the very last dress, you couldn't use anything after that. so this is our greatest hope. so let's talk about what other threats might be on the table. the war looks less winnable, for putin not least due to his forces withdraw from cason, which was the 1st and only regional capital in ukraine that russia was able to capture and hold strategically. it's a turning point, but in which direction? ah, residents of harrison, both young and old, are still celebrating the city's liberation. after 8 months of russian occupation,

people waved ukrainian flag and embraced their soldiers. short nozzles limits, we have no electricity, no water, no internet, no communications, no heating. but there are no russians either. and that's why we're happy we're. she'll sleep now whom would be, what did we feel? ukraine was, is and will be, no one will be able to conquer it, crush it. we are united as he never before. the ukrainian president has also visited the liberated city. his surprised visit is a show of strength to russia. is at the beginning of the day and of the war. of course you see i was wrong, gar, ma'am. we have step by step gamino dollar to all gone through all the timber of your body. there is but the war is not over yet. despite reports from ukrainian

sources that their army has recently recaptured around 100 in any villages in the south. heavy fighting continues in the east was harrison just a flash in the pan in the end. maria, how do you interpret proteins decision to approve an orderly withdrawal from house sun as opposed to simply seeking to try to hold it despite ongoing losses? do you think it represents a real shift in put in strategy? oh, i think it's, sir, it's changed in the war, but we will see their circumstances not very fast, and they see that will be probably some months we've been year until the war a somehow will ends unfortunately. but the seal there is a huge slap for him to put him because he declared his song to russian theory. tori, one business is just go force and back with the troops in other countries territory

. and another thing had to go back from you on your own, as he thinks about the territories. so he sat, the g didn't work out and sold my realization on all this poor guys who was sent to the front. they couldn't do anything for him. they don't want to fight briskly, and sir ukrainians defends in absolutely heroically. and yeah, this is just results. roman, the jubilant ukrainian forces that we saw in that report clearly of no inclination to take a break after this success. they've been continuing to strike deep behind russian 4 lines of it in particular along the eastern bank of the denise pro river. where do you think that things go from here? what do you see as being in store? well i'm, i think we should watch a don barza the east of ukraine very closely because this is where the most severe

fighting is taking place. and this is where it is important for putting to have a kind of we're reading situation. so he wants to, to occupy the whole region of the nascar. he failed in that. so, and this is where we have reports that the troops from here so on, russian troops are be moved to their be moved to the city of baltimore, which is a small, small town actually. but it is on a strategic cross road in between in north and south of the buildings region. and this is where i expect the russians will intensify the fighting. and we have to understand that are those missile strikes we've seen in the last days the russians is continuing. now they are also a kind of a response to the, to the fact that putting had to give up concern. and there was a lot of frustration in on his supporters. so this is also an opportunity for him to show, look, i'm hitting your crane so ukraine is in pain. so don't worry,

we'll, we'll win. this is the message also constant in some nato officers including the head of the u. s. joint chiefs of staff. general milly have suggested that a winter lull in fighting would be a good moment for ukraine and russia to sit down at the table. and try to negotiate care says that a stalemate would simply allow russia to consolidate its gains, whose ray the ukrainians. because when they have momentum at the moment it's, it was the, the house on retreat by the witness was a very significant militant, military blow to the russian army. good. was completely different from the ukrainian victory am hark. if they have, they were very fast, the rushes were surprised, they didn't have their strongest forces there. but in the house one they had, this one was forced elite troops and they've, they've been edison so,

so it was really a significant loss for the russians. the momentum as on the ukrainian side and what put in once he wants to have a pause because he wants to rebuild his army and he needs to rebuild his army. and if, if the ukrainians pressure on her, he will have problems too too. we concede the or we built his army, and in fact maria, he needs to rebuild because at least according to the same us general, the head of the joint chiefs of staff, the casualties on both sides have been 100000. each very serious casualties are so, of course, for the russian side, how long can brush sustain those kind of law says not just in terms of the military picture, but also of course, politically. do you see any indication in russia of a genuine willingness to look for a negotiated settlement? this is very interesting question, but it couldn't be a short answer actually,

because sir propaganda works really brilliantly. i mean, in bed sense because people receiving coffins with by this of their dearest ones and they don't unto anything. and they do not ask questions, or they are very angry and say, ukraine, what you've done to my son. we've seen this video is like about one woman who is crying in their boss and says she was shouting this exactly words not potent, what you tend to my son, if you great answer. people mostly just tried to survive this, her stamps, and did not think about the war at all in russia. i understand this is very hard to believe and to understand and to receive for me is to receive it. this is really hard. butts. s and the sand that people just leave their life and try not to think about putting decided something. and it doesn't matter for me, scarce on rationalist his own ukrainian. so we'll just strive to get some money and

get through this difficult times. better like people are to speak about it. yeah, roman, let me ask you about a resolve in ukraine as we mentioned, millions of ukrainians facing massive powder power outages, emerging evidence that the russians occupiers in her son applied torture to civilians and evidence that many, many or ukrainian children has been separated from their families does all of that add up to a likelihood that we will see ukrainian resolve strengthened or exhausted while there is no indication of ukrainian resilience diminishing so it is a stir. it is remaining on a very high level. and although those hardships, although, so missile strikes, adjuster make, make ukrainian population even more resilient. they're saying we're ready to be to

leave, or just the as lensky put it, or some, a few months ago i'm in his speech. he said we already addressing russians. i think he said, we will leave without light without electricity, without supplies, but without you. and i think this is the spirit of ukraine at the moment. konstantin, the german military economists, marcus k up said this that it would just immediately after the her son or withdrawal that in fact russia has already lost the war, but that he believes fighting will continue as long as next september or october. will the west keep weapons deliveries coming that long, even as their apartments grow colder. and our, their firms are lacking the energy to keep production going and the economy is a sliding into recession. i don't see an e. m, diminishing of the you, the western resolve not, not in germany, although the numbers are going up for sort of the, the enter multi section. but,

but it's, it's still strong in that as many other western countries. it's also strong. and i think the, the missile attacks on civil targets now is actually, you are good for the resolve because it shows it's the, the tell was nature of the russian regime. and that you have to fight them whatever it costs. and so, so i'm, i think a more optimistic that, that the west will stand together because christian, i think this so so propaganda thing to say that ah, the wes helps ukraine now the rest housey itself because we're starting with the pool and sedation. yeah. this is very, very close. so the rest basically defense a 1000. i also see through this like not strong support, but this is the only way. what's the 1st lot. yeah. let me come back to our title

and it is after her son. what are russia strategic? goals, roman in a word, strategic goals are, are the same to haven't changed, or which is to destroy you growing as a state as a nation. and to threatened the worst, maria agreed. absolutely, and skip it forward. the mains said, did you go from forcing his keeping his power? that's why he invented all this stuff with the russian. walton in bates, him ukraine. would you also agree, katya? she and her son is a turning point, and nonetheless, the strategic goals are identical to at the beginning of the war. you don't really know what, what, but putting those up too, but basically, i think nothing has changed. thank you very much to all of you for being with us. thanks to roman invite maria and constantine here in the studio. and thanks to all of you out there for tuning in. if you're watching our program on you to please

send us your comments and thoughts, we're eager to hear them. thanks so much. bye bye. with

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