blue, sometimes a seed is all you need to allow the big ideas to grow. we're bringing environmental conservation to life with learning pass like global ideas. we will show you how climate change and environmental conservation is taking shape around the world and how we can all make a difference. knowledge grows through sherry and download it now. feel free masochists, torture and kidnappings. the list of alleged war crimes committed by russia is growing moscow's military's relentlessly bombarding civilian infrastructure in ukraine. power is often out. people are freezing in their homes at shelters, hospitals are destroyed, doctors are working to exhaustion, war crimes,

or just the regrettable side effects of any will. meanwhile, artillery barrage is continue with undiminished force. in the eastern dawn basketball. today we ask, has russia become a terrorists with hello and welcome to to the points. let me introduce today's pat. jessica berlin is a political analyst and a visiting fellow of the german marshall fund, a thinking of kind of reached out for a power trip and retired colonel with germany's bonus van al military analyst at the german institute for international institute. and our very own the us molena from d w's. russia desk will welcome to all of you. and i would like to start to look at the scene is on the ground. harrison was just re taken by your

friend. there was jubilation about it, but now morale apparently is very low citizen steering a few in the winter because russia has destroyed a lot of infrastructure when retreating. now ukraine called that a terrorist act and a walk right in central. oh, what i think is one should lot called russia as a whole, as a terrorist state. they are, of course, violations of human rights violations of the who in the turn law of war and the aggression as such as, of course or crime against that piece. on the other hand, russia as a state is not a terrorist state, but we have still to look at the future. and we should still be in a position to talk to the russian leadership, whoever that might be. because we need it, we need a strategic dialogue. the americans needed for the strategic balance, and we might need it in europe to avoid

a worst scenario. but if we're looking at what happens on the ground there, right now, the ukranian authorities understand to be say, that boy, that the population is facing a 2nd battle now against the cold and against hunger. so i was not to let me ask you as well, is that a war crime? is that the act, the other, those, the actions of a terrorist? well, i've been just talking to people who are in ukraine right now to our correspondence . and both, if i know they're not specifically in her son, but all around the queen, there was a major black out, i think yesterday was a very important day. so to say, because of the and all the massive attacks on the infrastructure. and this is a deliberate strategy to targeting the infrastructure and they're selling the bombs are not any of the military objects that amy and their power stations to make conditions for surveillance, actually unbearable. and the queen authorities have a set of numerous times. this is act of terror. this is in gilbert strategy. i

think the last he has been asking for a month and is he would be in american partners to actually lease trash as a terrorist said, they only do this now. and i think the reasons that they want to ensure and the support it's white, largely a symbolic state is symbolic move to actually show show ukrainians, show ukrainian or politicians that we are with you. we know what's happening and we stand by your side. but whether this will have any actual effect, both on the battlefield, it also can change and they can criminal i don't think such where we come to the designation as a tourist states are in a moment. let me talk about the the pope recently. he reminded the world of hollow mo door that's the night inserted, the tempest darling to starve millions of ukrainians into into submission. 7000000 people died. the jesse a, do you see perils here is put in, taken a leave out of style in spoke there. um, is that using hunger as a weapon?

absolutely, we have to remember that russian aggression in ukraine and the efforts of the russian state to destroy ukrainian national and cultural identity and to eradicate the ukrainian population. predates this war by a long, long time. this is a centuries of recurring violence from the russian empire in the sorest times, from the soviet union under stalin. so for ukrainians, this war, this war of aggression is just a further step in a centuries long history of russian attempts to annihilate ukrainian cultural and national identity and the 90th anniversary of the hello to more genocide is of course a stirring and stark reminder of what happens when we, as the international community failed to act, fail to, to, to deter and detain russian aggression now. cubes. maria. util includes, go, says the coming winter. i will be the worst since world war 2 for ukrainians. is

that true? if i make okay, come to their food as a weapon in the war, i think we can also see it is more broadly like the grain deal. for instance, the attempt of blocking ukrainian grain coming out of ports, which will cause not only hunger in ukraine, but also what african countries for the other countries in the world. i think in russia and put using food as a weapon has been as topic for a long time. it's not only now now maybe it's become more actual because of the university of hole in the more in this kind of things. but i think it's like a recurring topic and it's not like this one and event. and as for their coming winter, of course, and the situation right now on the ground is very dire. but from what i hear, people are sounds like they used to eat, but they have been, they're prepared to endure for some time yet. and i've been trying to figure out if there will be, you know, their moods or, you know, moving maybe to other european countries or to, you know,

we some ukraine and i haven't found those people are determined to stay there. people are determined to fight for, i'm not prepared to negotiate at this point. and i think this and, you know, referring to what's happening now as there was to interesting 2nd world war. it's also kind of an urge from the college going this case from ukrainian physicians to attract more attention to what's happening and to actually call and europe in partners to deliver what they promised. because they've promised a lot of help here in berlin. we had this and conference and reconstruction of you could only crane and like an enormous amount of money was promised there. but there was also a message from our president zalinski saying that we haven't seen a cent of this money. and it's way great that you are promising the senior one to restore the ukraine after the war, but we need this money and this decisions right now. and sadly, from what i'm hearing from our correspondence, there is that, you know, this support is being delayed. now you said that would you hearing from, from the correspondence is also that the morale is still high. people are willing

to endure even the hunger and the cold. now, after nearly a year of fighting a many serious incidents have come to light and being investigated by now. let's have a closer look at the allegations, a list of atrocities that keeps growing. un investigate to say there is mounting evidence of russian horrors in ukraine, including torture, sexual violence, executions and mass graves in places like boot shop. now a crime scene reports by amnesty international indicate that moscow has also abducted ukrainian civilians. even separating children from their parents. only to give them up for adoption and russia. many also consider russians bombing of critical infrastructure ukraine to be a targeted attack on the civilian population, which constitutes a war cry. people are currently at risk freezing to death. in light of these

serious accusations, calls are growing louder to classify russia as a terrorist state. that's exactly what the european parliament did this week and voted overwhelmingly in favor of such a resolution. but the us is not willing to go that far. president biden believes that this classification could set back humana, terry, and efforts in ukraine and jeopardize potential peace negotiations with russia. now, what constitutes a terrorist state? one definition of terrorism is the systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population, and thereby to bring about a particular political objective of can, does russia fit the bill here? sounds like normally a you and other countries in the rest would qualify

a terrorist state, a state that spawns as terrorist organizations. that is at least a classical definition of that or take the case of iran and the case of his bola as a terrorist organization. it was defined as a tourist organization and iran is supporting it will be now oh, want to define a complete state as a tourist organization or as a tourist state then it by i guess by this is correct in saying this might go too far because we still have a need to discuss was that state. it's not about a single person. so there's a difference. and we of course we'll have to find out finally, who is, who is responsible for the violations of human rights or for who need to monitor and law. but that goes too far because be still iffy. demos are complete state. we will have difficulties to negotiate later and we needed and us needs it needs to

have to keep the nuclear balance. of course they want to have a successor treaty of their new start treaty and they will restart the strategic dialogue. so i find that is a, maybe a moral impetus behind that that can maybe satisfy the all needs. but for practical purposes, i think it's not very realistic and we will have to speak again. i think there are a couple of points to to break down from both count comments. firstly, yes, he's right. that typically the state sponsor of terror is referring to a state that sponsoring other terrorist groups. not necessarily a state undertaking their own terrorist actions. in this case, however, russia fits both bills. this is not the 1st time that russia has been up for consideration as a state sponsor of terror. they have already been known to sponsor the iranian i, r g c group. for example, they have sponsored and supported has bella and even given them direct military and

financial support in syria. so russia as a state sponsor of foreign terror is already on the cards. and now with the war of aggression in ukraine and the terrible war crimes they have committed. and as per your definition that you mentioned earlier, they have clearly been committing directly acts of terror to terrorize the ukrainian population. now the practical considerations that was con, refers to from the american calculus is important to consider. because by labeling russia, a state sponsor of terror, the sanctions would be extended not only to russia, but also to any other companies around the world. doing business with russian entities and this could get very complicated very fast. thus, the american hesitation, however, i disagree with the concern that labeling russia state sponsor of terror would somehow mean that we are no longer able to speak with russia. on the contrary, this would be

a very strong signal of deterrence. and an incentive for the russians to back down and come peacefully to the negotiating table by saying you will not get off this list until you lay down your arms and leave ukrainian territory to do i dont agree . i think we will not be in a position to flip my russia into a submission. this is unrealistic, in my view. and if your demo knows a complete state, i don't speak about single persons who are responsible for this and that then you will have difficulty later on to speak openly to that state. and it will not be a just a negotiation. we are the one side or decides what it sorry, where one side decides on rich terms. they have done to settle. finally, it has to be a negotiations on equal footing, so it's no other way out. otherwise, you cannot get strategic balance and that this is an american interest. what do you mean by demonization? this country is committing genocide. what is being demonized for this country is

not committing genocide. i think we should not be easy. we should not easily apply this word, genocide. there are certain terms for genocide you can say, and i would agree on that. there are committing war crimes. yes. committing moby crimes against humanity. there is a crime of aggression, of course, as such, riches all or, or crimes defined in the statute of the internet called off or justice. but you cannot say it's a general side in the sense of the international definition. if i think that it's all going on wrong, but i just will push back this one last time because the definition of genocide is acts committed in whole or in part against a people to destroy their national and their cultural identity. and this has indeed taken place in ukraine having lived and worked previously in rwanda. my familiarity with genocide statutes is perhaps not as a lawyer, but certainly deep enough to to know that the russian crimes in ukraine do in fact,

qualify by law as genocide in let me know. let me address one question or 2 natalia, the reaction in what we'll do, reaction in russia be, what would the kremlin care at all? well, i think i was precisely want to say that, that, you know, i think bye bye now cameron has not caring actually what has been cold and how's been called. especially these are in the european union, european commission label and terrorism status. at this point in time, it doesn't mean anything in practical terms for kremlin it's they condemn their actions in ukraine, but this is no news or for another for putting off a best called m like mary, as a hero, for instance, has reacted to this in you know typical kremlin way of, you know, laughing, they're faced about saying yeah, and this see your opinion is estates for supporting stupidity or something like that. so it shows as they have the level of communication, there is no, no, no, this diplomatic and talking about this. whether i think if the united states, as,

as you mentioned, it's the very, it's very different thing. if you notice, face would list russia, the terrorist is because it has some legal implications. and i think that would be taken very seriously and in practical terms. but i don't think it will force them to either come to the table of negotiation or not come. i think a what can actually move russia to go to negotiation is the situation in the battlefield in his longest and both rush or it should both sides have something to achieve in the battlefield. there is no need for them to go to the negotiation table. sadly, that's the or the now the next topic that i would like to come to, i because the tactical picture on the ground is changing for both parties with winter coming. many expect that dropping temperatures will subdue the fighting them despite icy temperatures. fighting in ukraine continues undiminished. a contentious battle is taking place in bar mood, located within the don bath region. the small town remains under ukrainian control,

according to ukrainian saucers. russia is sending inexperienced recruits to fight that the small town has little strategic value at the moment. but after abandoning, have sought, the russian army seems willing to risk anything to achieve even the slightest victory. however, experts suspect that the freezing temperatures could soon slow down the pace of fighting and russia in particular, would current be benefit from a break that would allow time to rebuild their armed forces. but that is precisely what the ukranian army wants to avoid. their keeping up the pressure but ukrainian president lensky admits that the cost in human lives and resources is enormous. which side now which side is profiting more from the current situation

and the, the with the winter and the occult temperatures that are coming. i can you think, can ukraine keep up the momentum millet on the, on the battlefield, that the have at the moment and, and push russia further. the crane has achieved a lot during the last months. the 1st big defeat, the russians were in front of give the rules ready. and it was based on the complete misunderstanding and misperception of the korean identity and unity and the capability to fight probably the rational sort of everything. but what happened in 2014 would be repeated. that crane army is not ready to fight in some parts even go to turn sites on the other hand, in the hock, if we saw in capability of the russian forces in terms of leadership. also in terms of forces and strengths, of course. and we saw

a lot of initiative on that were creating inside cassandra, a different case in kept sun is on the, on the west bank of the river. at napa river could not be kept by the russian side because of the logistics that could be easily distracted. because they only 2 or 3 very narrow bottlenecks over the river. and that was a calculated retreat. so i would not be to a bishop on that and say this is an initiative of the great me inside. for the moment i feel we did not. we have not yet reached the strategic turning point of this, or the russians have still a lot of reserves, maybe not high quality, but in masses. in tanks, in terms of artillery, in terms of person that they are creating inside will be more and more dependent on west, on hope, because a lot of off on production capabilities has been destroyed and there needs this rest and assistance. my question is, what are the risks on the western side in political terms,

but also an economic times i'll be really prepared. i'll be able to go to war production in the west, which would be needed if we want to sustain that. that's all. yeah. in terms of the russian will to keep on fighting. ah, is it, is it still, they're both in civil society? well, and political will, is there, i think russia went so to save our bank when they started this were, and you know, there is no way back. there is no wait, what is going to say? oh, sorry when miscalculated. now let's let us retreat. no, he, he went all in and even though they're the goals of this, an operation as he calls us, has been changing alongside when they saw that keith was not possible to capture. now we'll concentrate on don boss, but they'll need to at least get some get something to, to declare victory at home. so i think they, the will, is there, well, there is, there come military capability. and now we've seen that there for the new recruits of, well at least 3 or 300 solvents or new combatants. l quality of them is very questionable

thing because those are people who may be or not. so what have aided to go into army. most of them haven't received a lot of training with here. a lot of stories about people going to come was just after you know, 2 weeks of training just after shooting couple of times, the guy with a gun and the willing to actually not fight and go away or like maybe even a defect to the ukrainians. that is big there, but for instance now i think there is because i'm also campaign, maybe not in them in the media, but like in telecom channels, there is a lot of this, you know, process pro war bloggers have gaining this momentum and a calling for more and more aggressive moves now in ukraine. so now has now i guess granite has to balance between there we are on the battlefield and this, you know, need of this like small group of very walk and we're defenders are, were activists to lake somehow balanced this 2 sides. is there any reason? no air, jessica, for the west to change that arc. all if anything, there's

a reason for the west to increase their aid to crane. but as voice gun pointed out, we're facing right now a real serious issue on production and supply. of course, there is still room for growth in our support of air defense and in particular, we still have not seen delivery of and b t's of main battle tanks on modern pattern battle tanks being delivered to ukraine. this would be vital in preparation for the spring offensive to give you cranium troops. the protection in terms of armored personnel carriers as well as tract tanks to be able to deal with the winter and spring mud conditions in the in the on coming offensive. we need to help ukraine keep the pressure up on russia, not allow russia to regroup this winter and come into the spring fighting season, stronger. but to do so, would require a strong investment across all of nato to increase our production so that our own strategic domestic reserves can be maintained in stock. because of course,

china will be watching very closely to see if and when western military resources are spread too thin. this opens a window for them to potentially put pressure on and attack taiwan. so we're facing a difficult season. next year we'll bring a lot more difficult choices, but one thing is clear. ukraine cannot be allowed to lose. russia cannot be allowed to win. this is in all of our strategic interest across the free world. that brings me to my final question for, for, for this program negotiation start. when both sides come make any progress. really, that's a natural point to start negotiations. let me start with you. welcome and briefly, what do you think we're close to that stage? maybe at that stage, at the moment we are not chose because as i said, the turning point of this war has not been reached yet. on the other hand, if i look back to the 29th of march of this year, there were some, quite

a good proposals in my view on the table. saying that you will not join nato. that is, something's a landscape put up there and communicated. the 2nd, the status of the crimea peninsula will be postponed by 15 years and negotiated in the mean time, and there will be a direct negotiation between the 2 presidents on the future status of that on bus. of course, everything under certain security guarantees. this was to my mind, the best proposal so far on the table, the most realistic one. both sides have turned away, putting has an ex territory, which of course slammed the door because the great indian side cannot negotiate additional territory. and we are not there yet in military terms. so can i interrupt you this time is running out of natalia? let's come to you 1st. how close are we to negotiation?

well, i think why not, and she very close if there was a point when it was possible, or maybe i don't know, i don't the think it was possible actually then, but we are so far into the fighting and i think you can have lost so much and i think less prepared to negotiate. now looking back as what has been, how the war has been going on with all the crimes we've been discussing with all their new investigations and international and everything. how this war is going on . i think there was less and less an agreement on the ukrainian side to actually negotiate with wouldn't just go with your take, you cannot negotiate with terrorists. and russia has acted as a terrorist states, even if they don't carry that legal distinction from the united states. if putin is allowed to gain any net benefit from his invasion of ukraine, then we all have lost. and this is the thing that must be not allowed to happen. it must not be allowed to happen. it's a good final statement. that's it for this edition off to the point. i hope you

enjoyed our discussion and if you watching us on you to please let us know what you think in the comments below many, thanks to my panel and all, all viewers. thank you very much. see you next, i'm going to the point with

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this is the w news line from the rush. the launch is overnight. the tax on the crating city pass all the deadly barrage was the heaviest. today on the 750 that ukrainian forces liberated 2 weeks ago, also on the program, the new russian law that could turn drag queens into outlaws. do mal lawmakers, approve of.