ah, the melting ice reporter drags down the arctic major players and with your unfolded those russian warships and alan guys, version o avenue guns pro fish, adam starts december 23rd on d. w. chinese leader is she doing being was just confirmed and office securing a 3rd term and eliminating political rivals now that people are protesting against his regime. tens of thousands in china are demonstrating against the government. strict 0 coven policy. in several cities, the locked downs have been going on for weeks and are costing jobs and wealth.

despite prevailing against his opponents and the communist party. some protesters are even calling for she's resignation. so on to the point, we ask protests in china, how deep is public unrest with i'm have, you know, get us welcome to the program law. let's me to base guests. jensen is a chinese freelance journalist here in berlin. alexander gerlach is a journalist and author and an expert on china based in new york. and felix lee is also a journalist who was a long time correspondent in china. now he works for the germans, specialized news, outlet, china table to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being here, especially for coming the long way and welcome to this week's program. now at chin i'd like to was due to assess the current situation even though it seems like the

protests worn off a little bit after they started. we're still talking about the biggest wave of protest and china since the 1989 gentlemen square protest. how did we get there? how frustrated are the chinese with the 0 corporate policy? i think i'm from the protest along well, how shocking it is and how many people are actually take it out to the stress and what they were calling for. it's already a, quite a big a testimonial. how frustrated are chinese people and it's not just frustration. i think the 2 lighter for what it's anger, it's and it's really desperation, it's the sense of losing, of hope. there's a lot of emotions there and also, obviously what happened the autumn when she's a fire is sort of just the tipping point with laughter. and because it's very visual, you really see people that you see videos really widespread and people screaming because the fire, blah sigh escaped, was blocked, and there was

a 3 year gold died in the fire and she is exactly 3 years old. that means her entire life is covered policy. she hasn't. she hasn't. she didn't really say anything outside of the small apartment. so i think her yet i think that for sure and some people lost jobs and her company's shad done. and obviously there's very fundamental anger that's a towards the situation is definitely very emotional alexson. and yet china, of course, we can not forget is a gigantic country with 1400000000 people. yes, it's thousands on the streets. but is that really that big movement? you have to see like that from may onwards, and jails have counted up to 735 protests. the economist just recently put the data together and analyzed it. and the courses for these protests were diverse. it was like corporate, but it was also the banking crisis in june where people couldn't withdraw money from 80 m 's day is the real estate prices that were like people lost money. they

already put forward to buy apartments. so there is a variety of, of reasons for dis contend and i feel like the year just now does this, the, the last drop as so to speak, with the corporate a 19 policies. so it started with one person, is one man who put up this banner right before the party congress in october, asking for is using p to be removed and called him a dictator and a trader. and it was just one man. and now there is like tens of thousands of people and there could be hundreds of thousands in a month. they could be millions in 2 months to fix. to also share that view, that these protests are really not only about the corporate policies, but that it is far more white spread. i think it is based mainly because of a covered policies. but her, it's a symbol of her how she's in pink treats as people in the last few years and i think she's in ping. he went to 5, i think he went with his 0 covert strategy. it doesn't make sense from her. her

health point of view, i mean, we are in number number the year 3 of the pandemic. we have vaccinations or the virus is not so dangerous as it is at the beginning. and he still holds up to the very, very strict measurements. and i think a lot of people think it's not about getting con to covered under control, but also a whole far can he go with controlling his country in whole far can he go to look down his can your closest country? and because he, he wants to control everything and especially the people and i think are the protest showed that you went too far controlling people. and of course, also controlling the process themselves. because no matter why you protest in china, it's definitely not easy to do. so the protesters have gone out of their ways to send a message and know that 'cause is full of risks. let's have

a look at what's at stake. tens of thousands of people in china are demonstrating on the streets with blank sheets of paper in their hands. it's the largest protest of its kind since the tenements were uprisings of 1989. they are demanding that the government reversed its 0 coven policy, and calling for the resignation of state leader, gigi and ping. because of his strict locked down, millions of people are stuck at home, losing their jobs, and unable to leave, even to by basic necessities. a few weeks ago, the communist party elected jumping, granting him sweeping powers, and critics like former head of state which in town were simply removed from office . the authorities, however, weren't able to stop this loan protest on a bridge. this sign calls for freedom and demands an end to covey restrictions.

have the people lost confidence in the state party. and that's exactly the question that i would like to pose to 10 half the people lost confidence in the pardon i think is a very big question. and i think a lot of people, so we're talking about why people one to the streets and of this ling shanghai in some cities the, we're really here this very shocking calling and but are the actually rapid representative. and so i think when we look at why people one to the protests and, and what are their, whether callings and what they are asking for. there's a wide spectrum of why they're there. and the, when we're asking for the change of political system is actually a small percentage. most people, what they want is to finish this ridiculous lockdown. and they want freedom in terms of not necessarily to the level of freedom in everything but more the fit.

and they want to put better than normal life. i think that's what they want. and so i think that represents what they are really towards their anger to and it's, and a lot of people actually, they don't think of the problem. the party, the think is the problem of how the orders from the above is an executor here on the local level. so they're more mad at the local level instead of the party. so i think obviously there's a big and group of middle class that's leading this protest, but the people who can actually take it out to the street and to who can make a change eventually. how sure are they and what are their appeals are quite different from, from one to the other. felix or what's the relation that people have to the government in china? because yes, the people are protestant on the streets because they, as you said, may be, have the feeling that the government went too far. but the communist party and

she's in things specifically have also put shine on the world stage of the superpower. is there a sense of national pride that is important to hear a definite d. m. a lot of people. oh or this is the promise of the communist party in the last 3 for decades, more wealth, more a stronger country. and as long as this promise still going on and a lot of people, i haven't reached the stage of becoming a middle class yet. as long as promised that all the poor people are you that the communist party is fighting poverty. as, as long as this last there is big trust on the government. that doesn't mean that there's also a lot of unrest our own, but they're not happy about the government. but at least they don't question the whole system. but i mean it's, it's a gap now in china, we have a lot of people still in the country who haven't reached the middle class yet. but

in the big cities, there's an urban urban people, especially young people. a lot of students are from the academy. academics they are out of their job, they don't, they don't have to have the suffer from the cova, the strict co covered measurements. and i not sure if they really can create a big movement or that teaching ping's. busy power is in danger, i'm not sure i'm, i wouldn't be so sure because this also just doesn't dement only anger, but this also demands a certain degree of organization or an opposition and there is no opposition in china. so yes, there is. a lot of people are unsatisfied, but it doesn't. it's not enough to create a whole big social movement. do you think that as well as kind of because we have

seen a difference between the perceptions in the countryside, for example, and in the cities. but as you mentioned, not everything is going according to plan. do you see any type of risk for this communist party for teaching things specifically? yeah, i will. i will also back to differ a little what, what felix, that it's, you should see what people chant and our language phoebe already say, like, people are treated like subjects in a way where people say like, we don't need an emperor. that's what a chance of people have understood what the mechanics behind using things rain is. so yes, they might not want to want to introduce maybe a multi party system and electrons every 4 years or whatever it is in, in the memory of any living soul in china. that has never been the case, but they feel like they are not treated. i believe according to the promise, even of the communist agenda, and certainly not of the market economy or capitalist agenda where you are like a purpose in yourself. are you a human being as agent in your life? and you can say yes, there are restrictions and people all over the world had to live with some restrictions of that or that sort. but then they were lifted, they were,

they were change whatever, choosing ping, so now people chanting for more freedom of speech, freedom of the press, the rule of law. it all leads to like the system, how she has changed the country in the last 10 years. they are not in favor of that, and we also know that people in the party are not in favor of that. so i don't see an immediate danger that he's got to be removed in 4 weeks. so maybe to the opposite that he has close to rings in the party congress. but the people in china now have been a vacant, if you will, if you want to use as very traumatic sort of language. but if the communist party now would react to it, which it does to a certain extent, like lifting a little here or there. this might not be enough in the long run, but also it's dangerous for the party because that's a democratic mechanism. people ask for change and then the change is about to come and that's actually something that she cannot allow. but with those, it's not very optimistic about it because why talk to people who are in china. they also have the feeling that we have to look at what kind of education majority of

chinese received and how do they have this political awareness actually targeting the problem. the deep rooted problem should a party into the people and to the leadership. i don't think so. i think they just see what are in front of them. not necessarily linking to a central government and they're not have. they don't have the political awareness and education to analyze the political system. however, it yes or no just to add up and i think she jumping has one very strong tool. he build up her civilian system which has never existed in mankind. and this is very efficient. i mean, you see that the people who were on the streets with mark in the dark this weekend, some of them are, are already getting arrested because the civilians, cameras start their eyes or whatever. and this is of course i. so i don't expect much protest in next few days or me maybe even few weeks. but of course the anger still exist and the it still exists and that also leaves

a few questions open in the western countries. the western democracies are watching the developments in china scrambling to fry and a proper way to react. and it's not the 1st time china, an indispensable trading partner is very allergic to any type of foreign interference. chancellor schoultz goes to vietnam for a state visit. this country alongside singapore will become an even more important trading partner in the future. germany is pushing for free trade agreements with other asian countries to reduce the country's unilateral dependence on china. that german minister of economics, robert havoc is a strong advocate for urging the german business community to look for other asian trading partners. besides china. for example, hobbit recently stopped china from buying an entire container terminal at the port of hamburg leaving only limited financial investment. the u. s. on the other hand,

is taking the sledgehammer approach. being chinese products from z t e to huawei tick tock, the popular social media platform could sing follow suit. they say that chinese products threatened national security by the same token, us micro chip producers may only export product to china under the strictest of terms cooperate or containment? what is the right strategy to deal with china? and what is the right strategy? alexander, the west has long hoped that trade could essentially of foster political change and authoritarian regimes. we have seen that failed in russia. is it now failing in china as well? the if i'm not mistaken, the bertelsmann foundation a few years back, calculate that, that out. the, the mocked democratic trade to trade from democratic countries of non democracies. amounts of 15 percent of the g d p. so meaning like that, of course, germany kind

a street that's a lie, a different different ball game. but like saying there is a way to just like minimize that sort of traitor is already more going on between democracies because the rule of law and the security of investments is uphill. every now see with russia and also see with china, you can easily say if your whole system runs on cheap gas from one dictatorship and like trade with another one that's not sustainable, you will be paying the price later on. but we now do with the, in regard to costs are much higher. so i feel like you have to rather like think of that with a longer strategy to realize that it's not a sustainable way of doing business. and clearly, at least germany is trying to diversify the way it's economy works of felix, do you think that is even possible under the circumstances? it is possible, but it's a huge step in it's gonna cost. i mean, i wouldn't say that the whole german economy is dependent on china, but there are certain companies,

big companies who are very dependent on china and her. of course, there is this danger that did you political conflict arising and germany and german companies has to decide which site they are on, whether on the western side, with the best western values, or are they going to do business with china more important and, um, yes, a, the green party in the german government is trying to diversify. they're not talking about decoupling. but getting at least getting less dependent. and the chances on the social democratic side is sort of. ready blocking, and i think germany has to be honest, i think if this decide it cannot go once by like in the last few decades. but this also will gonna cost,

and i'm not sure if the german government is ready to admit to also to the, to the german companies. but if there is this channel clear china strategy that this will also cost a lot. and definitely also costs are some force when countering what is happening in china. although we've seen a quite mild reaction from the government so far. why do you think that is? maybe i can let go with that to return to the last question that you asked about. and i can definitely caution and we think that this vendor does hundreds failed, like some people already claim is failed in china as well. but actually this protest proved to be it's, it hasn't failed. so where do you think there are so many people actually take it out to the street and look at who they are? a lot of them are, have connections that was brought like maybe their friends sibling study abroad, or they work for german companies, or they had a certain kind of form of political education and is the big group in china. so how

did facilitate the change is actually is the people to people exchange that a brought by the business. so i think that's why it's quite important for germany to keep this going on. not only there's a certain dependency from german economy to china, took a jobs and so on. but it is, it also create awareness. we would really undervalue this people to people exchange and how they can change through daily activities. like to see what a freedom actually looks like. so and, and when we talk about why you are saying that you feel like this crocodile protests are not as hard as people expected. i think sometimes the government is the time to think that how they want to react. that's why they're taking their time . and but as we've also, i commented on because of this, ty, somehow with, with the outside world was. so chad is not isolated also as a group of people is not isolated, i think is a quite important to keep that in marrying the future that these group of people

shouldn't be forgotten. that's very optimistic, of course. but what if it works the other way around? some fear that china will start not only exporting its products, but also its political model. do see that risk that we might have more authoritarian regimes and other countries than through this power. will china as already exporting its surveillance technology and barbara and other great countries if you will like dictatorships? basically there's no doubt that gigi pings idea of how a company should be governed. he wants to explore that. and not only just to make other countries dictatorships as well, but to deflect, ah, the attention of the free world from china. this is why china through north korea is supporting russia and all that like these acts is a why, why they then also encourage to meet up with a ran. and so this is like, certainly we see all that and this is why it's important. because if we, when we speak it here in this, in this little circ littles, we're not talking about best and values. first of all, like the free world is extending to australia, new zealand or a crime or wishes which is not the classical west. it's also like values that we

agree upon, honor on a, on a universal sort of sort of bass because if you are like for no reason incarcerated, if you are, if you are beaten up or like even kill. so i feel it's a very common human feeling to not be ok with that. so that's not a vest and invention. it's using ping and put in put forward thing. that's a new way of doing the best to colonize us. you see people going to the street because they know about their dignity and that there are things that are not all to be done with them in any just system and being a one party system or multi path system that might be on another sheet of paper but the point being like the understand that there's like they have rights that come and derive from their value and the human dignity values that the west certainly wants to defend phillips. but how difficult is it with the power that china has? do you see a double standard that some are calling out on this specific case compared to how the west reacts to protests, for example, in other countries?

while you're yeah, you can call it double standards. on the other hand, i mean china has changed a lot to in the last few years. i mean, 10 years ago, 20 years ago dealing with china was a total different thing than, than dealing with china today. china's very aggressive are also the hats and very aggressive strategy with the belt and road initiative. there have another strategy which is called you will circulation, which doesn't, which means to get deep and independent in the inside get independent from western technology, but making other countries dependent on china. this is, i would call it economy war and i'm not sure if everyone here in germany or in the western countries have realized what that means. and i think it's not enough just to okay. yeah. be critical on china and see sometimes seeing something but doesn't have a clear strategy. how to deal with this very aggressive strategy,

which is coming from china to get back to the people. urchin. we have seen some signs of relaxation of the covert measures looking into the future. do you think if the covert measures are relaxed? well we see everything get back to normal in china. i think getting back to normal will take a while because the government, they, they realized it and then we can see the recent development. one of the anecdote is like 2 or 3 days that this is, if you, if i, which the sports channels when they broadcast the football games, like welt cups. they cut the, the faces of audience out because not wearing mask. and they don't want people to to know that actually the whole world is open, but today and yesterday is back. so the audience is, are actually showing on tv. and we also see official statement that they're saying ok on the car right now. it's not as dangerous as before, and we are ready and 90 percent of the people are vaccinated. that's an official statement. so we're already see that the change of direction. so i believe that's

opening up is coming. but obviously the government want to avoid the situation where they are losing face so dramatically by changing 180 percent under 80 degree . so it will be slow. you sure that perspective event we have a few seconds. well yeah, we have all know crystal ball and once you have a country like china where it is one person calling the shots, it's very difficult to forecast what's gonna happen. and i, i've, i feel, well, i said like people have now taste that like freedom and understood what can happen if they go to the street. so it remains to be seen to whether or not these small changes in the court in the court, and the corporate policies will in the meet medium term, let's say in help with the youth unemployment is up to 20 percent. so there is like not about a few days less than quarantined, it leads to be substantial changes to be like for the party to be safe again. and we will certainly see if that is the case. i assume that is all the time we have.

oh, all right, i'm, i'm, i'm, i'm just hearing that i still have one last question for you. felix. thank you very much. do you also think that it ultimately would lead to the economic development? and if that also bring some regulation, i mean that for the release of which are said to release the stricter covered measurement, i think they're just minor in total, china is still, i still keeps on holding up to that the recovery strategy. and as long as this is the case, i think the people will are suffering and the economy is suffering. and i don't see a big change in the next few weeks. we'll see how that goes and we'll definitely be there to analyze it with you to all 3 of you. thank you very much for joining us and to you for watching. remember, you can also comment like and subscribe in our youtube channel. looking for

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