a symbol of power, rebellion and sensuality wound by royalty and icons. the mike and you got this and magic wand and ground through divorce guy with a can is full cultural history. secret weapon mistake doth december 3rd on d. w with chinese leader a. she aging being was just confirmed and office securing a 3rd term and eliminating political rivals now that people are protesting against his regime. tens of thousands in china are demonstrating against the government strict 0 cove at policy. in several cities, the locked downs have been going on for weeks and are costing jobs and wealth

despite prevailing against his resignation. so on to the point, we asked protests in china, how deep is public unrest? mm. i'm have yet to get us welcome to the program loud. let's meet to base guests. gin soon is a chinese freelance journalist here in berlin. alexander girl is a journalist and author and an expert on china based in new york. and felix lee is also a journalist who was a long time correspondent in china. now he works for the german, specialized news outlet, china table to all 3 of you. thank you very much for being here, especially for coming the long way. and welcome to this week's program now, and i'd like to start with you to assess the current situation. even though it seems like the protests warren, off a will bit after they started,

that we're still talking about the biggest wave of protest and china since the 1989 gentlemen square protest. how did we get there? how frustrated are the chinese with the 0 corporate policy? i think i'm from the protest long. well, how shocking it is, and how many people actually take it out to the streets and what they were calling for. it's already a quite big a testimonial. how frustrated are chinese people and it's not just frustration, i think the 2 lighter for what it's anger. it's, and it's really desperation, it's a sense of losing, of hope. his lot of emotions there and also obviously what happened with them when she's a fire is sort of just the tipping point with laughter. and because it's very visual, you really see people that you see videos really widespread and people screaming because the fire, blah fi escape was blocked and there was a 3 year gold died in the fire and she is exactly 3 years old. that means her

entire life is covered policy. she hasn't, she hasn't, she didn't really say anything outside of the small apartment. so i think her, yeah, i think for sure, and some people, lot of jobs and her companies had done. and obviously there's very fundamental anger that's a towards the situation is definitely very emotional. excellent. and yet china, of course, we can not forget is a gigantic country with 1400000000 people. yes, it's thousands on the streets. but is that really? that big movement? you have to see like that from may onwards, and g o z have counted up to 735 protests. the economist just recently put the data together and analyzed it. and the courses for these protests were diverse. it was like covered by the results of the banking crisis in june, where people could not withdraw money from atm stays the real estate crisis that were like people lost money. they already put forward to buy apartments. so there

is a variety of, of reasons for discontent. and i feel like the year just now does this, the, the last drop as so to speak, with the covet 19 policies. so it started with one person, this one man who put up this banner right before the party congress in october, asking for a shooting p to be removed and called him a dictator and a traitor. and it was just one man. and now there is like tens of thousands of people and there could be hundreds of thousands in a month. they could be millions in 2 months to fix. to also share that view, that these protests are really not only about the current policies, but that it is far more widespread. i think it is based mainly because of the covered policies. but her, it's the symbol of her how she does pink treats as people in the last few years. and i think she's in ping. he went too far. i think he went with his 0 covert strategy. it doesn't make sense from her. her health point of view, i mean,

we are in number number the year 3 of the pandemic. we have vaccinations or the virus is not so dangerous as it is at the beginning. and he still holds up to the very, very strict measurements. and i think a lot of people think it's not about getting con to covered under control, but also a whole far can he go with controlling his country and whole far can he go to a locked down has come to our closest country and because he, he wants to control everything and especially the people and i think are the protest showed that you went too far controlling people. and of course also controlling the process themselves. because no matter why you protest and china, it's definitely not easy to do. so the protesters have gone out of their ways to send a message and know that their cause is full of risks. let's have a look at what's at stake. tens of thousands of people in china are demonstrating

on the streets with blank sheets of paper in their hands. it's the largest protest of its kind since the tenements where uprisings of 1989. they are demanding that the government reversed its 0 coven policy, and calling for the resignation of state leader, jesus ping. because of his strict lockdown, millions of people are stuck at home, losing their jobs, and unable to leave, even to by basic necessities. a few weeks ago, the communist party elected jumping, granting him sweeping powers, and critics like former head of state which in town were simply removed from office . the authorities, however, weren't able to stop this loan protest on a bridge. this sign calls for freedom and demands an end to kobe restrictions, have the people lost confidence in the state party. and that's exactly the

question that i would like to pose to 10 half the people lost confidence in the party. i think is a very big question and i think a lot of people, so we're talking about why people one to the stress and of this leading shanghai in some cities. the we're really here this very shocking calling and but are the actually rapid representatives. and so i think when we look at why people one to the protests and, and what are their, whether callings and what they are asking for. there's a wide spectrum of why they're there. and the ones who are asking for the change of political system is actually a small percentage. most people, what they want is to finish this ridiculous lockdown. and they want freedom in terms of not necessarily to the level of freedom in everything but more the freedom they want to go back to their normal life. i think that's what they want. and so i think that represent what they are really towards their anger, to and it's, and

a lot of people actually, they don't think of the problem of the party. the think is the problem of how the orders from the above is executed here on the local level. so there are more mad at the local level instead of the party. so i think obviously there's a big group of middle class that leading this protest. but the people who can actually take it out to the street and to who can make a change in virtually how sure are they and what are their appeals are quite different from, from one to the other. no, felix. what's the relation that people have to the government in china because yes, the people are protestant on the streets because they, as you said, there may be have the feeling that the government went too far. but um, the communist party and she's in things specifically. i've also put shine on the world stage of a superpower. is there a sense of national pride that is important to you?

a definite d. m. a lot of people are or this is the promise of the communist party in the last 3 for decades. more wealth, more a stronger country and as long as this promise is still going on and a lot of people haven't reached the stage of becoming a middle class yet. as long as promised that all the poor people that the communist party is fighting poverty. as long as this last there is big trust on the government. that doesn't mean that there's also a lot of unrest or that they're not happy about the government. but at least they don't question the whole system. but i mean it's, it's a gap now in china we have a lot of people still in the country who haven't reached the middle class yet. but

in the big city, there's an urban urban people, especially young people. a lot of students are from the academy. academics. they are out of their job. they don't, they don't have to the suffer from the covert. the street called covered measurements. and i not sure if they really can create a big movement or that she didn't, pink power is in danger. i'm not sure i'm, i wouldn't be so sure because this also just doesn't dement only anger, but there's also demands a certain degree of organization or an opposition and there is no opposition in china. so yes, there is. a lot of people are unsatisfied, but it doesn't. it's not enough to create a whole big social movement. do you think that as well as kind of because we have seen a difference between the perceptions in the countryside, for example,

and in the cities. but as you mentioned, not every is going according to plan. do you see any type of risk for this communist party for achieving things specifically? yeah, i will. i will also pick a different littlewood what felix said, it's you should see what people chant and that in our language phoebe already say like, people are treated like subjects in a way where people say like, we don't need an emperor. that's what a chance people have understood what the mechanics behind using things rain is. so yes, they might not wanna want to introduce maybe a multi party system and electrons every 4 years or whatever. because in, in the memory of any living soul in china, that has never been the case, but they feel like they are not treated. i, i believe, according to the promise, even though of the communist agenda. and certainly not of the market economy or capitalist agenda where you are like a purpose in yourself. are you a human being as an agent in your life? and you can say yes, there are restrictions and people all over the world had to live with some restrictions of that or that sort. but then they were lifted, they were, they were change whatever g ping. so now people chanting for more freedom of speech,

freedom of the press, the rule of law. it all leads to like the system, how she has changed the country in the last 10 years. they are not in favor of that . and we also know that people in the party are not in favor of that, so i don't see an immediate danger that he's got to be removed in 4 weeks. so maybe to the opposite that he has close to rings in the party congress. but the people in china now have been a vacant, if you will, if you want to use that's very traumatic sort of language. but if the communist party and i would react to it, which it does to a certain extent, like lifting a little here there, this might not be enough in the long run, but also it's dangerous for the party because that's a democratic mechanism. people ask for change and then the change is about to come and that's actually something that she cannot allow. but with those yes, aren't very optimistic about it because why talk to people who are in china. they also have the feeling that we have to look at what kind of education majority of chinese received and how do they have this political awareness actually targeting

the problem. the people who problem choose a party and to the people and to the leadership. i don't think so. i think they just see what are in front of them. not necessarily linking to a central government and they're not have. they don't have this political awareness and education to analyze the political system. however, it yes or no just to add up and i think she jumping has one very strong tool. he built up a survey in system which has never existed in mankind. and this is very efficient. i mean, you see that the people who were on the streets with mark in the dark with weekend some of them our are already getting arrested because the civilians, cameras start their eyes or whatever. and this is of course i. so i don't expect much protest in the next few days or meet maybe even few weeks. but of course the anger still exists and the it still exists and that also leaves a few questions open in the western countries. the western democracies are watching

the developments in china scrambling to fry and a proper way to react. and it's not the 1st time china, an indispensable trading partner is very allergic to any type of foreign interference. chancellor schultz goes to vietnam for a state visit this country alongside singapore will become an even more important trading partner in the future. germany is pushing for free trade agreements with other asian countries to reduce the country's unilateral dependence on china. the german minister economics robert havoc is a strong advocate for urging the german business community to look for other agent trading partners. besides china. for example, hubbard recently started china from buying an entire container terminal at the port of hamburg leaving only limited financial investment. the u. s, on the other hand, as taking the sledge hammer approach, being chinese products from the t 2 hallway, tick tock,

the popular social media platform could sing follow suit. they say that chinese products threatened national security. by the same token, us micro check producers may only export product to china under the strictest term . cooperate or containment? what is the right strategy to deal with china? and what is the right strategy alexander? the west has long hoped that trade could essentially foster political change in or tearing regimes. we have seen that failed in russia. is it now failing in china as well as i'm not mistaken. bertelsmann foundation of us back calculated out the mock democratic trade to trade from democratic countries with non democracies amounts of 15 percent of their g d p. so meaning like that of course, germany kind of st. that's a different different ball game. but like saying there is

a way to just like minimize that sort of traitor is already more going on between democracies because the rule of law and the security of investments is upheld and will be now see with russia and also see with china, you can easily say if your whole system runs on cheap gas from one dictatorship and like trade with another one that's not sustainable, you will be paying the price later on. but we now do with the in regard to cast, or masha so i feel like you have to rather like, think of that with a longer strategy to realize that it's not a sustainable way of doing business. and clearly, at least germany is trying to diversify the way it's economy works of felix, do you think that is even possible under these circumstances? it is possible, but it's a huge step in it's gonna cost. i mean, i wouldn't say that the whole german economy is dependent on china, but there are certain companies, big companies who are very dependent on china and her of course,

the, is this danger that do political conflicts are rising and that germany and german companies has to decide on which site they are on, whether on the western side with the best western values or, or are they going to do business with china more important. and, um, yes sir, i for the, or the green party in the german government is trying to diversify. they're not talking about decoupling, but getting at least getting less dependent. and the chances on the social democratic side is sort of. ready blocking, and i think germany has to be honest, i think if this decide it cannot go on by like in the last few decades. but this also was gonna cost and i'm not sure if the german government is ready to admit to also to the,

to the german companies. but if there is this channel just channel strategy that this will also cost a lot. and it definitely also costs some force when countering what is happening in china. although we've seen quite mild reaction from the government so far. why do you think that is? maybe i can let go with that to return to the last question that you asked about. and i can get a question and we think that this vendor does hundreds, failed like some people already claim it failed in china as well. but actually this protest proved to be, it's, it hasn't failed. so what do you think there are so many people actually take it out to the stretch and look at who they are. a lot of them are, have connections that was the broad lake, maybe there. and friends, sibling study abroad, or they work for german companies, or they had a certain kind of form of political education. and it's a big group in china. so how did you facilitate the change? is actually the people to people exchange that brought about. so i think that's why

it's quite important for germany to keep this going on. not only there's a certain dependency from german calling me to china, took her jobs and so on. but it is, it also create awareness. we would really undervalue this people to people exchange and how they can change through daily activities. like to see what a freedom actually looks like. so and, and when we talk about why you are saying that you feel like this crocodile protests are not as hard as people expected. i think sometimes the government is the time to think that how they want to react. that's why they're taking their time . and that as we've also, i've commented on because of this, ty, somehow with, with the outside world, which was such as not isolated, also as a group of people who are not isolated, i think is a quite important to keep that in mind in the future. that these group of people shouldn't be forgotten. that's very optimistic,

of course. but what if it works the other way around? some fear that china will start not only exporting its products, but also its political model. do see that risk that we might have more authoritarian regimes and other countries then through this power will china as already exporting its surveillance technology and barbara and other great countries if you will like dictatorships, basically in the there's no doubt that changing things idea of how a company should be governed, he wants to explore that and not only just to make other countries dictatorships as well, but to deflect, ah, the attention of the free world from china. this is why china through north korea is supporting russia and all it's like these acts as a why, why they then also encourage to meet up with iran. and so this is like, certainly we see all that and this is why it's important. because if we, when we speak it here in this, in this little circ littles, we're not talking about best and values. first of all, like the free world is extending to australia, new zealand or a crime or wishes which is not the classical west. it's also like values that we agree upon, honor on a, on

a universal sort of sort of bass because if you are like for no reason incarcerated, if you are, if you are beaten up or like even kill. so i feel it's a very common human feeling to not be ok with that. so that's not a vest and invention. it's using ping and put in put forward thing. that's a new way of doing the best to colonize us. you see people going to the street because they know about their dignity and that there are things that are not all to be done with them in any just system and being a one party system or multi part system that might be on another sheet of paper but the point being like the understand that there's like they have rights that come and derive from their value and the human dignity values that the west certainly wants to defend phillips. but how difficult is it with the power that china has? do you see a double standard that some are calling out on this specific case compared to how the west reacts to protests, for example, in other countries? while you're yeah, you can call it double standards. on the other hand,

i mean china has changed a lot to in the last few years. i mean, 10 years ago, 20 years ago dealing with china was a total different thing than, than dealing with china today. china's very aggressive are also the hats and very aggressive strategy with the belt and road initiative. there have another strategy which is called you will circulation, which doesn't, which means to get deep and independent in the inside get independent from western technology, but making other countries dependent on china. this is, i would call it economy war and i'm not sure if everyone here in germany or in the western countries have realized what that means. and i think it's not enough just to okay. yeah. be critical on china and see sometimes seeing something but doesn't have a clear strategy. how to deal with this very aggressive strategy, which is coming from china to get back to the people. urchin. we have

seen some signs of relaxation of the covert measures looking into the future. do you think if the covert measures are relaxed? well we see everything get back to normal in china. i think getting back to normal will take a while because the government, they, they realized it and then we can see the recent development. one of the anecdote is like 2 or 3 days that this is a to your fire, which the sports channels when they broadcast the football games, like what cups they cut to the, the faces of audience out because not wearing mask. and they don't want people to to know that actually the whole world is open, but today and yesterday it's back. so the audience is actually showing on tv. and we also see official statement that they're saying ok on the crown right now. it's not as dangerous as before, and we are ready and 90 percent of the people are vaccinated. that's an official statement. so we're already see this change of direction. so i believe that's opening up is coming. but obviously the government want to avoid the situation

where they are losing face so dramatically by changing 180 percent of $180.00 degree. so it will be slow. you sure that reflective event? we have a few seconds left. yeah, i mean we have all know crystal ball and once you have a country like china, word is one person calling the shots. it's very difficult to forecast what's gonna happen. and i, i've, i feel what i said like people have now tasted like freedom and understood what can happen if they go to the street. so it remains to be seen to whether or not these small changes in the court in the court, and the corporate policies will in the meet, meet him term let's say. and help with the youth unemployment is up to 20 percent. so there is like not about a few days less than quarantined as leads to be substantial changes to be like for the party to be safe again. and we will certainly see if that is the case. i, i assume that is all the time we have. oh, all right, i'm, i'm, i'm,

i'm just hearing that i still have one last question for you. felix. thank you very much. do you also think that it ultimately would lead to the economic development? and if that also bring some regulation, i mean that for the release of which are said turn to release the stricter covered measurement. i think they're just minor in total, china is still, i still keeps on holding up to that the recovery strategy and as long as this is the case, i think the people will are suffering and the economy is suffering. and i don't see a big change in the next few weeks. we'll see how that goes. and we'll definitely be there to analyze it with you to all 3 of you. thank you very much for joining us and to you for watching. remember, you can also comment like and subscribe in our youtube channel looking for d w. news. i'm call your gas and i hope to see you next time till then take care

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