how documentary feelings will show you how people, companies, and countries are rethinking everything, and making major changes if we don't do something, our children won't be able to enjoy fresh air. with this week on d, w. b o. bell, it also supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in the reciting? there is a consensus that we don't support this war. the bill of our mission not participate, and it also fails. it also understands that if he sent out the restrict the crane, they can defect. they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest today. franak,

we are ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian, opposition, leader for atlanta. the kind of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella luce, but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or shank goes regime product manager. okay, welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend, you had russian defense minister, saturday, sure ago, in bellows meeting, his opposite number. and just few days before that, you had unnamed, the russian generals arriving in minsk as well for various meetings, is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella bruce's help? the visits of russian generals an officer, sorry, usual thing since the question that came to power. but when were, has started, all the deals that were assigned became secret. and we don't really know how much

independence, how much over and to remain in the hands of a people. we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah, those sector of military conflicts on their control of russia. there you go and listen to music is also important because it happened just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by bill. it was an official, as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian besides including hypersonic missiles and 5 to just such as mig 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the

information you have? is russia planning large scale ad assaults and you create an infrastructure from bella? ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill. it was very direct, so it needs to read a court to month. there were in those strikes from from betters, but to the same time i'm more than 10000 russian soldiers to write to balance and they're a deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops, we see vehicles. we see some banks, we see some the region so very defensive from ceramic to boilers. it doesn't seem they're brilliant at docking a group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers, in order to fix that russian occupation of visitors. we really believe that russia

can use bella was as a consolation prize, in case if you will lose the war in ukraine or you, what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine. it's still not next to 3 months. right now, russia doesn't have a capacitor now or newer vehicles from period 3, army power will not be able to conduct saturation if the strong backup primarily technical back up from russia also been shown soldiers. they don't have morale that they don't see cranium to enemy in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this for the bill of our mission not participate also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips the crane, they can the fact that they can turn arms against him. they will be split off

really. there will be no way for protest, and he's really afraid of send and receive the truck still to ukraine because his bow it going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia back to the wall in ukraine, essentially losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a start and by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle. your confidence that i think they're playing the role. it's the performance a question to explain the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that which will not come to murder him, but also for a question which in this is very, very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush. and i think let's,

let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas. and there are con the leash and puts in this trying to shorten this leash so much as possible. will not allow luca shenker to not leave him a space at all. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime. ventilate resume, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits. it's not experience for me . i was in the army, i was serving and minister on the border with the cray. it was 10 years ago, but they know what, what, what is it? locations came in cage would be the in the secret services that,

that they have to protect himself. but can never invest in building some army. when belittle shantel, the received mobile is ation coals. there will be a huge protest which resistance goes to a site that doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use malaysian to that. push him if i will send my troops then the all until the 20 and last year will attack me. because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as the reason him in order to last 10 sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they read their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine, constant pressure, that least might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops to destruct and be courses of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shank, of the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president

fulton, or would you rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, location pays the soviet man or he is very on the western democracy, something that goes against his principles against his for nature are he chose russia and which in, instead of dilution people in 2020 could agree on dialogue with deliberation professors 3 years ago. but instead he called for pigeons helped to suppress this protest. and right now was which should the tipping point of least pro ration using an adult? no question. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry, in an interview that no one was closer to president as a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president 14,

between president putin and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions could just want to stay relevant to be important? isn't all this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 and the host of them. question wants to be the big player. it wants to be in the 1st sleek and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the worse of himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's very poor, old, weak, insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was a foreign minister, a close, confident of alexander lucas. shank oak. did russia have anything to do with my

case death? possible. everything is possible, right now we come to school day, new versions. so we still didn't see the publication of that. there document about the death of my kid with a ominous. it's very strange, it's one week past. but still, there is no official information, also that a statement from lucas and about the death of my case here many years after the fact was rebuilt, it means there was something behind it was the bushel officials are very reckoned. they feel that they can be the next. and they think of is that these could be, could be just just death, but also can be part of the bigger events of bigger dynamic. we were still counting, you talked to for russian troops and but it was there to code control. the situation is bella luce, a hostage of russia,

biller was taken hostage of russia and putting together least 2 criminals. they just use military tory in order to attack ukraine. to revive empire and not just a little, some people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 square forced to leave the country in 2021 correct down to place against bill. send them a great the course is. it was a preparation for rational war against the graeme. and you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week off additionally, to merkel listening over ended up in intensive care for she was gone with the hospital from her prison. so she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrels. would you say whole faith is a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows, muddy and beacons peroration for many pollutions,

especially blue santa women. she became a symbol of resistance. and she was selenium the so massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shock. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also like we have to investigate what happens to her because the, just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was broken the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air, people or without communication. they could be beaten there and something, something happened wrong to her. perhaps there wasn't an order from lucas shanker personally to punish her. doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside

bellows has been silenced. no, it's no problems to change the form of resistance. there are many parties and groups they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back to sabotage on the railway scene, march and april this year. but there are thousands of people, members of the cyber partners or groups they paralyze and state infrastructure. and few weeks ago they hacked to the russian. oversized committee law school absorb league of the data to journalist. and there are many activists put together, shall or ukrainians, like some of the country will show. some of these will be in the campaign, not all over the country, but in big cities primarily when the worker. so the big factor is refused to do their job. for example, let's take that, let's take that a face value but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas and go it is indeed and

due to receive right now that depression some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained and people not just the same. their torture, they are partially beaten. more active is dying prism, and this is shock a lot. and we call one international community to react recall and the un to take urgent measures. let's talk about a number. the better should humanize group. the ash claims, as many as 5000 people are in the prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nation stays under the thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you, therefore it is who is left in the country to carry out an opposition against alexander lucas shall go. bill, it says ran 1000000 people or country sold the protests to more than

1000000.5 participants. so even if let's say a few 100000 bill since the contra still become a 1000000 to resist also there is a big disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front line and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside the videos as an opposition. how effective are you? how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison? we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the ground with local

communities. we will meet with blockers. little journalists, who described in the sprint or some leaf flat, put in their main mailboxes or spanish channels. the leader of the little who, who, who on elections, she created the matrix conditional cabinet, which is like government in exile. and which we know, we know all, you know, all that mr. via but then how does that helping activists inside bella roof. you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside in bellows? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to come to ration and location because propaganda, i don't think something's fire, belittle chance to fight. we tried to keep the morale that i had to build

connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for be a little shan scores, field, fight and in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement that after 2020, at that time and a massive st protest and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure? ok, opposition? movement. not yet. as we see there. correct on in 2020 was depreciation for the war. lucian would answer life without him if we can, who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020. and right now the question k, spain is that back to approach and it's not the feel out. this information became much more complex. now we are part of the bigger regional job political crisis. now

we are fight and legit for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for the very existence of bella state, hold. and in order to get the was free and in the band them, we need the, the 3 of the great set land to kind of sky your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election than particularly the protest, the mouse st protest that happened after that, and she presents herself as the leader of the bell. russian opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections but didn't take her office because a question can put an issue, the leader of the validation opposition. i think she's in the derby level nation because a position it was more than 70 percent off was just call her the president for she does not lead a united ventilation opposition. she's live in the united them. ok. the courses

exactly. she united to all the major groups, the traditional political parties and the new groups that are here in 2020. and of course there are different ideologies the front of use among different politicians . but she's absolutely are we unify and figure to old will see below random credit. let's see. i'm going to find that is because an opinion followed by telegram based bolster. not rodney o pross among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the colonoscopy regiment of bellowed ocean volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than missus atlanta to kind of sky. clearly she's not a leader for united opposition issue or this is the oldest. they're just the mom activists of the specific group. and then oscar regimented just a group of military volunteers, right in the ukraine. so let's compare,

you know, political leadership and fighters and the lessons for again, that's one of the most can participate in elections. in one election, multiple observers surveys polls or nickelodeon prove that she won elections to receive 2 or 3000000 to vote. so the communist regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters, ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they are, they deserve a huge respect from we who support their if they do what you say, they are popular. they are not popular is politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrifice me a life a notice to, to save ukraine because they understand that when ukraine we, we as well. so they are not seen as a part of the opposition than now they are fighters and with some

a divide and petition. some the fighters and military volunteers are integrating in the army. of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school where seem by many ukrainians as as aggressions. i'm really most key regimen. they prove that not all of them are like lucas and the regime and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minutes. you know, skype, you keep saying in this, in, through the trees, the national leader of bella rules and she has, keeps calling us up the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that almost every country she comes. she smell on the presidential level in the parliament. she sold this address. madam president, today just and was there is no, there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of dollars. or there is

the fact recognition. there is the level of protocol which are defined as far as the and of state. and there is no legal years from this years. we don't, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just a game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas, and go count as leader of bellows and not music. less sure, that's true. and this is, this is the problem for us because police nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly. and they vote for very all, from the support of proposals. lucretia called russian the in the show. this is why we are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we already spoke latin america. we have some, some relation there will be

a reached out to stage as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or horses. so the european union, one percent is not recognized for the leader. and now we are asking the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with the ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the war. she has fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location space and power there will be comes from threat to ukraine. like it's happened in february, february, this year, lucretia and the problem is that they will not be attacked from billers territory.

and suddenly this attack happened and russian things, some most the reached kia from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with some people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship. again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and to work to connect with some resist in a ration of supply and forces situation and better. some grain are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, sherman chicken hasn't yet been able to meet president landscape. when is that going to happen? yes, she does met her officially on the informally at delano public events. it will happen when there will be willing cranium, but she's very good relationship with the whole now other ukrainian parliament. we

have good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but we understand by ukrainians, dumped me her. they don't want to provoke in question. is it also because they do not trust her? you know, i think because there was a clear crime of lucas shown here for mid to most care locations are, can escalate the conflict against the crane or even introduced troops. so for ukrainians, for now the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognize had a national leader of and i was efficiently i think if her, if, if luka introduced her troops notice troops to, to ukraine, this process will be speeded up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her, but right now they are very cautious. they don't want to get to play with fire. it's been a pleasure talking to you. we have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us today. for a knock via talk with

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every weekend on d w. ah ah ah, this is still a news line from berlin and german authorities foil an alleged plot to storm parliament and overthrow the government and the biggest anti terror operation and decades. police arrest 25 suspected members of a far right group terminus. top prosecutor says the suspect intended to use force to install a minor aristocrat as the country's new leader. also coming up, china prepares to live with.