oh, ready news. welcome to take told me about hackers, paralyzing between your societies computers. then now some are you and governments that go crazy for your data. we explain how these technologies work, how they can send for that's how they can also terribly watch it. now you to belittle says, supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in boucher cited there is a consensus that we don't support this war. that bill of our mission not participate and also fails. it also understands that if he sent out

those troops, the ukraine, they can defect, they can turn arms against him. that's from my guess debate franak we are ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian, opposition, leader for atlanta. the come of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella luce. but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or shank goes regime? product manager. okay, welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whitaker, over the weekend, you had russian defense minister saturday showing go in bellows, meeting his opposite number. and just few days before that, you had unnamed, the russian generals arriving in minsk as well for various meetings, is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella bruce's help? the visits afresh, in general, some officers, our usual thing,

since the question that came to power, but to when we're has started all the deals that are signed became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much over and to remain in the hands of her location. and so there were some people we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah, miller's, a sector of military conflicts on their control of russia. a nuisance visit is also important because it happened just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by bill or some officials, as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian besides including hypersonic

missiles and 5 to just such as mig 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have? is russia planning large scale ad assaults and you create an infrastructure from bella? ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill. it was very direct, so it needs to read the court to month. there were in those strikes from from betters, but to the same time i'm more than 10000 russian soldiers to ride to balance and they're deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops. we see vehicles, we see some banks. we see some divisions. so for this and systems arriving to bellows, it doesn't seem they're brilliant. attacking a group of army on builder editor, it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers in

order to fix that ration occupational visitors. we really believe that russia can use bella was as a consolation prize, in case if you will lose the war in ukraine. are you? what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine? it's still not next to 3 months. right now, russia doesn't have a capacitor now or newer vehicles from beller started to re baler army so will not be able to conduct saturation if the strong backup primarily technical back up from russia also, belittle sounds, soldiers, they don't have morale that they don't see cranium to enemy in society, there is a consensus that we don't support this for the bill of our mission not participate, but also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips to craig and

they can defect, they can turn arms against him. there will be split, hopefully there will be new way for protest, and he's really afraid of send and resend true still to ukraine, because his bow, it's going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially. losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a installed and by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle. your confidence that i think they're playing the role. it's the performance a question to explain the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that which will not come to murder him. but also for a question,

which in this is very, very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush. and i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas jenkins. there are con the leash and puts in this trying to shorten this leash so much as possible. will not allow luca shenker to not leave him a space at all. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime. ventilate resume, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits. it's not experience for me . i was in the army, i was serving and minister on the border with the cray. it was 10 years ago,

but they know what, what, what is it? what came in cage would be the in the secret services that, that the me to protect himself up can never invest in, belittle some army. when belittle shantel, the received mobile is ation coals. there will be a huge protest which resistance because the site that doesn't support this war at all, and the look a sham, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the lay jim that push him if i will send my troops then the all until the 20 and last year will attack me because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as the reason him, in order to last 10 sam troops. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they read their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine, constant pressure, that least might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops to

destruct and be courses of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shank, of the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton, or would you rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, location pays the soviet man. or if he is very western democracy, something that goes against his principles against his her nature are he chose russia and fortune instead of dilution. people in 2020 could agree on dialogue with deliberation professors 2 years ago. but instead, he called for putting help to suppress this protest. and right now was we should the tipping point of this pro, ration using an adult. and now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry,

in an interview that no one was closer to president as a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president brought in between president putin and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions he just want to stay relevant to be important isn't all this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 and the host of them question wants to be the big player. it wants to be in the 1st sleek and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the horse of himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's a very poor, old, weak,

insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was a foreign minister, a close, confident of alexander lucas. shank oak. did russia have anything to do with my case? death? postal, everything is possible right now. we cancelled a new over the versions. so we still didn't see that publication of that. there document about the death of my kid with the ominous. it's very strange, it's from the past, but still there is no official information also that they are statement from lucas and about the death of my case here many years after the fact was rebuilt, it means there is something behind it. i wish the bushel official, terry reckoned they feel that they can be the next. and they think the staff east could be could be just just deaf, but also can be part of the bigger events,

bigger dynamic. we were still counting, you talked to for russian troops and but it was there to court control. the situation is bella luce, a hostage of russia, biller was taken hostage of russia and preaching together lease to criminals. they just use better territory in order to, to attack ukraine to revive empire, and not just a little some people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail, hundreds of 1000 square, forced to leave the country in 2021 correct down to place against bill or send them great courses. it was a preparation for rational war against graham. and you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader maria, cal listening. cobra ended up in intensive care that she was going to the hospital from her prison. so she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrels. would you say whole faith is

a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows. a muddy a's, a beacon spiration for many belittle sins, especially bruce and women. she became a symbol of resistance and she was selenium the so massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care units, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shot. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also really have to investigate. were patterns for her because the just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was put in the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication,

they could be beaten there. and something, something happened wrong to her, perhaps there was an order from lucas shanker personally to punish her. and doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's no problems to change the form of resistance. there are many parties and groups . they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back to sabotage on the railway scene, march and april this year. but there are thousands of people. members of the cyber partners are groups. the paralyzed state infrastructure and few weeks ago they hacked to the russian. oversized committee law school absorb league of the data to journalist. and there are many activists who put together shall or ukrainians, like some of the country will show some as this will be in the campaign, not all over the country, but in big city primarily when the worker. so the big factor is refused to do their

job. for example, let's take that, let's take that face value but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas and go it is indeed and due to receive right now that impressions some bigger than in 2020 every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained and people not just the same, their torture. they are harshly beaten. more active is dying prism, and this is shock a lot and we call one international community to react. recall on the u. m. i to take urgent measures. let's talk about a number. the better should humanize group. the ash claims, as many as 5000 people are in the prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nation stays under the thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you, therefore it is who is left in the country to carry out an opposition against

alexander lucas shall go. bill, it says ran 1000000 people or country sold the protests to more than 1000000.5 participants. so even if let's say a few $100000.00 in the contra, still become a 1000000 to resist. also, there is a big disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front line and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside of that was as an opposition. how effective are you?

how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison? we are in daily patch with the little groups are on the ground to with local communities. we will meet with blockers. little journalist who described in oldest printed or some easy leaf latch, put in their main mailboxes or spanish channels leader of who, who, who on elections. he created the conditional cabinet, which is like government in exile and which we know, we know all 9, you know, all that mr. cover then how does that helping activists inside bella roof? you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside in dollars? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to come to ration and location because propaganda,

i don't think something's fire, belittle chance to fight. we tried to keep the morale that i had to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for the sounds, force field, fight and in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement? that after 2020, at that time and a massive st protest, and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of opposition movement? not yet. as we see there, correct on in 2020 was depreciation for the war. nutrition would ensure life without which him each weekend who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020. and right now the question k, spain is that back to approach him?

it's not the feeling about the situation. became much more complex. now we are part of the bigger regional jo political crisis. now we are 5 more just for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for the very existence of bella, state hall. and in order to get the was free and independent, we need the victory of the grant settler to kind of sky your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election and particularly the protest, the most street protest that happened after that and she presents herself as the leader of the bell. russian opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections that didn't take her office because a question can put him issue the leader of the validation opposition. i think she's on the durability nation because look at some crazy position. got more than 70

percent of roles. just call her the present for she does not lead a united benediction opposition. she lives in the united democratic versus exactly . she united all the major groups, traditional political parties and the new groups of 2020. and of course there are different ideologies, different of use among different politicians. but she's absolutely, are we unify in figure to, to all of the will see the strength of chris. let's see how unifying that is because an opinion for bi telegram based bolster. not rodney opera was among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the colonoscopy regiment of bella lucian volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than mrs. atlanta to kind of sky. clearly she's not a leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest,

they're just the mom activists of this specific group. i'm calling oscar regimented just a group of military volunteers in the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and the fighters and the lessons forget the trauma, most could participate in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys, polls or international to prove that she want elections to receive 2 or 3000000 the vote. so the communist regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters in the ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they are they disorder from huge respects from we all support the recently what you say they are popular they are not popular as politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrifice me a lie, a notice to,

to save ukraine because they understand that when you cradle with the wind as well, so they are not seeing the part of the opposition then. now the fighters and all that sort of divide and petitions from the fighters and military volunteers. schools are in the cranium. army, of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school where seem by many ukrainians as aggressions. i'm calling those key regimen. they prove that not old. there are like lucas and the regime and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minute, 2nd, sky. you keep saying in this interview that the national leader of bella rules and she has keeps calling us the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that? almost from every country she comes. she smirks on the presidential level in the

parliament. she sold his address. or madam president, today just and there is no. there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of been the rules are there is the fact recognition. there is the level of vertical which are defined as far as the kind of state. and there is no years from this years. we don't to, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just the game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas shan't go counts as leader of bellows and not music taken us less. sure, that's true. and this is, this is the problem for us because police nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly, and they vote for very often in supports of proposal. so lucretia called russian

the in the show. this is why we are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we already spoke latin america. we have some, some relation there will be a, reached out, craig services page as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or horses. so the european union, what percentage lottery organized for the leader? and now we are asking for the recognizing human them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with the ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the war. she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location,

space and power there will be come from threat to ukraine. like it's happened in february, february, this year, lucretia problem is that they will load the attack from billers territory and suddenly this attack happened and rush thanks some, most the reached key from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with billing people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and go to work, to connect with some resist in a rational supply and forces situation and better. some crane are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, she hasn't yet been able to meet presidency landscape. when is that going to happen? yes, she didn't met her officially on the informally until i'm a public events. it will happen when they will be willing cranium. but she's

very good relationship with the whole there either you bring them parliament. we can good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but we understand by ukrainians, dumped me for they don't want to provoke cushion. is it also because they do not trust her? no, i think because there was a clear sign of lucas shown here for mid to most care locations or can escalate the conflict against the crane or even introduced troops. so for ukrainians, for the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognized a national leader of and i was efficiently i think it her if, if luca introduces her troops, miller's troops to craig, this process will be speeded up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her, but right now they are very cautious. they don't want to try to play with fire.

it's been a pleasure talking to you. we have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us today for not via talk with ah, ah, with

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