in 3 weeks now cannot is the end of the pandemic in sight. we show what he could look like will return to normal. and we visit those who are finding it difficult to success in our weekly coping 19 special every thursday con d w. bell . it also supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in boucher cited there is a consensus that we don't support this war. the bill of our mission not participate, and it also fails. it also understands that if he sent out the restrict the crane,

they can defect. they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest today. franak, we are ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian, opposition, leader for atlanta, the kind of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella luce, but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or franco's regime? product manager arco welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend you had russian defense minister, saturday showing go in bellows, meeting his opposite number, and just few days before that you had unnamed, the russian generals arriving in minsk as well for various meetings, is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella, luce has help the visits of russian generals an officer, sorry,

usual thing since the question that came to power. but when were, has started, all the deals that were assigned became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much over and to remain in the answer. her question and answer, there were some people we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah williams, a sector of military conflicts on their control of russia. there you go and listen to music is also important because see happen just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by below to some officials as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian besides including hypersonic

missiles and 5 to just such as mig 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have? is russia planning large scale ad assaults and you create an infrastructure from bella? ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill. it was very direct, so it needs to read a court to month. there were no st strikes from from barriers, but to the same time i'm more than 10000 russian soldiers to ride to balance and they're deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops, we see vehicles. we see some banks. we see some, the region so for this and systems arriving to bellows, it doesn't seem they're brilliant. attacking a group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers,

in order to fix that russian occupation of visitors. we really believe that russia can use bellows as a consolation prize. in case, if you will lose the war in ukraine, are you? what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine. it's still not next to 3 months. right now, russia doesn't have a capacitor now or newer vehicles from started to re army power will not be able to conduct the check. the ration if the strong backup, primarily technical back up from russia also been shown soldiers. they don't have morale that they don't see cranium to enemy in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this war. the bill of our mission not participate also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips, the crane,

they can defect. they can turn arms against him, they will be split off really. there will be no way for protest, and he's really afraid of sending mail it central still to ukraine because his bow it going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially, losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a start and by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle, your confidence that i think they're playing the role. it's that performance elevation case playing the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that which will not come to murder him, but also for a question which in this is very,

very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush. and i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas jenkins. there are con the leash and puts in this trying to shorten this leash so much as possible. do not allow luca shameka to not leave him a space at toll. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime satellite regime, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits. it's not experienced. i mean, i was in the army, i was serving the minister on the border with decree. it was 10 years ago,

but they know what, what, what is it? what questions came to nested in cage would be the in the secret services that, that they have to protect himself up can never invest in better some army. when belittle shantel, the received mobile is ation coals. there will be huge protest resistance because society doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the legion that push him if i will send my troops, then the all on the 20 and let you know, will attack me. because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as than the reason him, in order to last hand out the sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they create their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine constant pressure that this might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops to destruct and be courses

of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shall go. the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton? or would he rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, location pays the soviet man. or if he is very western democracy, something that goes against he's principles against his for nature. are he chose russia and cochin instead of dilution. people in 2020 could agree on dian with the professors 3 years ago. but instead, he called for pigeons helped to suppress this protest. and right now was which should the tipping point of least pro ration using an adult? no question. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry, in an interview that no one was closer to president as

a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president 14, between president putin and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions he just want to stay relevant to be important isn't all this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 question to host with them because she wants to be the big player, it wants to be in the 1st leak. and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the worse of himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's a very poor, old, weak,

insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was a foreign minister, a close confident of alexander, lucre shinkel. did russia have anything to do with my case death? postal. everything is possible right now. we come to school day new, over the versions. i wish we still didn't see the obligation of that. they document about the death of my kid with the ominous. it's very strange, it's one week past, but still there is no official information. also that a statement from about the death of my case here many years after the fact was rebuilt, it means there is something behind it. was she, the bushel officials are very reckoned. they feel that they can be the next. and they think of is that these could be could be just just death, but also can be part of the bigger events,

bigger dynamic. we were still counting your doctor for russian troops. invalid was there to court control. the situation is bella luce, a hostage of russia. billers has taken hostage of russia and putting together least 2 criminals. they just use military tory in order to, to attack ukraine to revive empire, and not to just a little some people are taking hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 square, forced to flee the country in 2021 correct down to place against bill, or send them great the courses. it was a preparation for rush to war against the graeme and you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader maria, cal listening. cobra ended up in intensive care for. she was gone with the hospital from her prison. so she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside bellows. would you say a whole faith is

a big blow to the opposition movement. inside bellows, a muddy a's, a beacon spiration for many pollutions, especially below some women. she became a symbol of resistance, as she was selenium they so massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's in a sense of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shock, wasn't a big blow, but the opposition movement. oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also really have to investigate what happens to her. because just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was put in the punishment. so this is the cage of be style. torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication, they could be beeping there and something,

something happened wrong to her. perhaps there was an order from lucas shanker personally to punish her. doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's no problems to change the form of resistance. there are many parties and groups they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back to sabotage on the railway scene, march and april. this year. there are thousands of people, members of the cyber partners are groups, they paralyze and state infrastructure. and few weeks ago they hacked to the russian oversight committee law school absorb league of the data to journalist. and there are many activists put together, shall or ukrainians, like some of the country will show. some of these will be in the campaign, not all over the country, but in big cities primarily when the worker. so the big factor is refused to do

their job. for example, let's take that, let's take that face value but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas and go it is indeed and do to receive right now that oppression some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained and people not just the same. their torture, they are partially beaten, more active is dying prism and this shock a lot. and we call one international community to react recall and the un i to take or urgent measures. let's talk about a number, the better human rights group. the ash claims, as many as 5000 people are in the prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nation stays under the thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you therefore it is who is left in the

country to carry out an opposition against alexander lucas shall go. bill of ran 1000000 people bucket country. so that brought us to, to more than $1000000.00 participants. so even if let's say a few $100000.00 in the countries to become a 1000000 to resist. also, there is a deep disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front lines and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside of that was as an opposition. how effective are you? how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison?

we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the ground to with local communities. we meet every blockers, little journalist who scrapping this printed or some easy leaf latch, put in their main mailboxes and our spanish channels leader ability. who, who, who, and elections. he created the navy conditional cabinet, which is like a government in exile and which we know, we know all that. you know, all that mr. village overcome. but then how does that helping activists inside bella roof, you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside investors? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to come to ration and location because propaganda,

i don't think something's fire, belittle chance to apply. we tried to keep the morale that i had to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for be a little shan scores, field, fight and in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement that after 2020, at that time and a massive st protest and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of opposition movement? not yet as we see there. correct down in 2020 was depreciation for the war location for building for life without him. if we can, who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020, and right now the question, k, spain is that back to approach and it's not the fail on the situation. became

much more complex. now we are part of the bigger original jo political crisis. now we are fight more just for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for very existence of bella. stay taught. and in order to get the letters free and in the band them, we need the 3 of the great set line african sky, your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election. and particularly the protest, the mouse st protest that happened after that she presents herself as the leader of the bell. russian opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections but didn't take her office because of concussion. can put him issue the leader of the benediction. opposition . i think she's a durability nation because look sham. praise and opposition got more than 70

percent of little typical or the present for she does not lead a united ventilation opposition. she lives in the united democratic versus exactly. she united all the major groups, traditional political parties and the new groups that appear in 2020. and of course there are different they do all the different use among different politicians. but she's absolutely, are we unify in figure to, to all of the will see the strength of credit. let's see. how unifying that is because an opinion for bi telegram based bolster, not rodney or pross among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the colonoscopy regiment of belushi volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than this is for atlanta to kind of sky. clearly, she's not a leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest,

they're just the mom activists of this specific group. and calling oscar regimented just a group of military volunteers in the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and the fighters and the, let's not forget the trauma to most could participate in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys, polls or international to prove that she one elections. she received 2 or 3000000 the vote. so the communist regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters, ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they, are they disorder from huge respects from we all support the recently what you say they are popular they are not popular. as politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrificed their life a notice to,

to save ukraine. did they understand that when you cradle with the wind as well? so they are not seeing the part of the opposition then. now they are fighters, with some a divide and petitions, and fighters and military volunteers. schools are in the cranium. army, of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school where seem by many ukrainians as aggressions. i'm calling most key regimen. they prove that not old delusions are like lucas and the regime, and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minute, 2nd, sky. you keep saying in this interview the, the national leader of bella rules and she has a keeps calling us out. the national leader of bellows, but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that almost from every country she comes. she smell on the presidential level in the parliament, she sold this address. madam president,

to be just and was there is no, there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of dollars. or there is the fact recognition. there is the level of protocol which are defined as far as the end of state. and there is no legal years from this years we don't to, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just a game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas, and go count as leader of bellows and not music. let's show this rule and this is, this is the problem for us because loose nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly and they vote for very all from the support of proposals cushion called russian the in the show. this is why we are

trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we already spoke latin america. we have some, some relation there will be a reached out to stage as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or horses. so the european union, one percent is not recognized for the leader. and now we are asking the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with the ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the war. she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location, space and power that will become from threat to ukraine. like it happened in

february, february, this year, location, and the problem is that they will not be attacked from billers territory. and suddenly this attack happened and russian, thanks most the reached key or from from bellows ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship. again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and to work to connect some resist in ration of supply and forces. situation and better, some grain are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, she hasn't yet been able to meet president landscape when is that going to happen? yes, she met her officially on the informally a dilemma public events. it will happen when there will be willing cranium,

but she's very good relationship with the whole now other ukrainian parliament. we have a good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but we understand by ukrainians, dumped her. they don't want to provoke cushion. is it also because they do not trust her? no, i think because there was a clear sign of lucas shown here for me to come oscar locations or can escalate the conflict against the crane or even introduced troops. so for ukrainians, for now the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognize had a national leader of and i was efficiently i think if her, if, if luka introduced her troops stoops to to you, craig, this process will be speeded up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her, but right now they are very cautious. they don't want to get to play with fire.

it's been a pleasure talking to you. we have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us today. for a knock via talk with with

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