a d w program on line d, w dot com, highlights making the jobs and what's behind them. d, w, news, africa, the show that will be a huge shape in the continent. life is slowly getting back to normally we're on the streets to give you in the report on the inside, our corresponding with on the ground reporting from across the continent. all the french doesn't matter to you. t w is africa every friday, only w belittles has supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in bella recited. there is a consensus that we don't support this war, that bill of our mission not participate. and it also feels it also understands

that if he sent out those troops, the crane, they can defect, they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest debate. from now we are ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian, opposition, leader for atlanta. the kind of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella rose. but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander lucre shank goes regime product manager, go welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend you had russian defense minister saturday showing go in bellows, meeting his opposite number. and just few days before that, you had unnamed russian general, deriving in minsk as well for various meetings. is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella? luce has help the visits fresh and general some officers our usual thing since the

question that came to power. but to when we're has started, all the deals that are signed became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much silver and to remain in the hands of her location. and so there were some people we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah mills, a sector of military conflicts on their control of russia. a nuisance visit is also important because it happened just awful of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by bill or some officials, as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as

a very dangerous development reports of russian miss. i was including hypersonic missiles and 5 to just to just make 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have? is russia planning large scale ad assaults when you create an infrastructure from bella ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill. it was very direct, so it needs to read a court to month. there were in those strikes from from betters, but to the same time i more than 10000, the russian soldiers arrived to balance and they're deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops. we see vehicles, we see some banks. we see some divisions, so very defensive comps arriving to bellows. it doesn't seem, they're brilliant at packing. a group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers,

in order to fix that russian occupation of visitors. we really believe that russia can use bella was as a consolation prize in case if you will lose the war in ukraine. are you, what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine. it's still not next, 3 months. right now russia doesn't have a capacitor now or more vehicles from billers, predatory letters army tell will not be able to conduct such reparation. if the strong backup primarily technical back up from russia also been shown soldiers, they don't have morale that they don't see crane intervention in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this for the building. our mission not participate, but also feels it also understands that if he sent out the restrict the crane,

they can defect that they can turn arms against him. there will be split. hopefully there will be new way for protest. and he's really afraid of sending mail over central still to ukraine, because his bow, it can cost him the power for your confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially. losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a yet started by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle. your confidence that i think they're playing the role. it's the performance a question to explain the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that which will not come to murder him. but also for a question,

which in this is very, very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush. and i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas, and there are con the leash and puts in this trying to short them this leash so much as possible. do not allow luca shenker to not leave him a space at toll. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime, ventilate resume, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits. it's not experienced. i mean, i was in the army, i was serving the minister on the border with degree. it was 10 years ago,

but they know what, what, what is it? what question came to nest in cage would be the in the secret services that, that they had to protect himself. but he never invested in some army. when bill it'll chance with a received my bill is ation coals. there will be huge protest resistance because society doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the legion that push him if i will send my troops, then the all on the 20 and let you know, will attack me. because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as the reason him, in order to last hand out sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they create their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine constant pressure that this might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our booth and troops into the shock and

be courses of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shall go the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton? or would he rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, location pays the soviet man. or if he is very out a western democracy, something that goes against his principles against his her nature, are he chose russia and which in, instead of dilution people in 2020 could agree on dialogue with deliberation professors 2 years ago. but instead, he called for putting help to suppress this protest. and right now was we should the tipping point of this pro, ration using them? no question. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry,

in an interview that no one was closer to president as a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president brought in between president putin and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions he just want to stay relevant to be important isn't all this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 and the host of them wants to be the big player, it wants to be in the 1st leak. and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the horse of himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's a very poor, old, weak,

insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was foreign minister, a close, confident of alexander lucca shank over. did russia have anything to do with my case death? possible. everything is possible right now. we come to full day new over the versions. we still didn't see the obligation of the document about the decimal, my kid with the ominous restrictions from the past. but still there is no official information. also there they statement from location to about the death of my peers many years after the fact was revealed, it means there is something behind it. i wish you the better. some officials are very reverend they. they feel that they can be the next and they think this bass, these could be, could be just just death, but also can be part of the bigger events,

bigger than then we were still country you talked of russian troops in ballard was there to court control the situation is bella bruce, a hostage of russia. biller was taken hostage with russia and put him together lease to criminals. they just use better territory in order to, to attack ukraine to revise the buyer. and not just the people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 where forced to leave the country in 2021, when crackdown took place against the little send them great courses. it was a preparation for rational war against the cream. you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader? maria less nicole. that ended up in intensive care for. she was transferred to hospital from her prison cell. she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrows. would you say her fate is

a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows? a muddy a's, a beak inspiration for many belittle sins, especially bruce and women. she became a symbol of resistance. and she was selenium the so massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shot. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also like we have to investigate. were patterns for her because the just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was put in the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication,

they could be beaten there. and something, something happened wrong to her, perhaps there was an order from lucre shanker personally to punish her. and doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's not silenced. to change the form of resistance, there are many partners i'm groups, they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back some time on the railway in march and april this year . there are now thousands of people, members of the cyber partners, i'm groups. there are licensed state infrastructure and few weeks ago they hacked or they're rushing oversight, committee or school next, or league, the data to journalist. and there are many activist scapoziello tional, ukrainian flex all over the country. will seal some as disobedience campaign, not all over the counter, but in big city this primarily,

when the workers of the big factor is refused to do their job. for example, let's take that. let's take that at face value, but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct on against them from alexander lucas ankle. it is indeed indeed receive right now that oppression some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained. and people not just the same, their torture. they're harshly beaten, more active is dying treason, and this is shock a lot. and to be called one international community to react, we call on the un, i to take her urgent measures. let's talk about a numbers. the berlin ocean human rights grow. the ashen are claims as many as 5000 people odd in the prism due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nations is hundreds of thousands of bella russians are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you therefore it is who is left in the

country to carry out an opposition against alexander lucas ankle. bill of ran 1000000 people bucket country. so that brought us to, to more than $1000000.00 participants. so even if let's say a few $100000.00 in the countries to become a 1000000 to resist. also, there is a deep disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front plan and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside of that was as an opposition. how effective are you?

how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison? we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the ground to with local communities. will meet with blockers. little journalists, who described in the sprint or some easy, li, flat, put in their main mailboxes or spanish channels. the leader of the little who, who, who on elections, she created the matrix conditional cabinet, which is like government and example. and which we know, we know all that. you know, all that mr via telecom, but then how does that helping activists inside bella. ruth, you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside in bellows? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to counter ration and location because propaganda,

i only fire a little chance to fight. we tried to keep the morale that i had to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for the sounds force field fight and in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement that after 2020, at that time and of a massive st protest. and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of opposition movement? not yet, as we see there, correct down in 2020 was depreciation for the war locations and wouldn't survive without him if we can. who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020 and right now the question k, spain is that back to approach?

and it's not the feeling about the situation became much more complex. now we are part of the bigger regional jo political crisis. now we are fight and legit for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for very existence of statehood. and in order to get the letters free and in the band them, we need the victory of the great set law, not to kind of sky your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 elections and particularly the protest, the mouse st protest that happened after that she presents herself as the leader of the bella lucian, opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections, but didn't take her office because of the question conclusion, is she the leader of the validation opposition? i think she's a durability nation because lucas and praise and opposition. it was more than 70

percent of roles typical or the present for she does not lead a united beneficial opposition. she lives in the united democratic versus exactly. she united all the major groups, traditional political parties and the new groups that are in 2020. and of course there are different they do all different use among different politicians. but she's absolutely, we unify in figure to, to all of the will see the screen democrats. let's see how unifying that is because an opinion for bi telegram based bolster. not rodney or pross among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the colonoscopy regiment of belushi volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than this is for atlanta to kind of sky. clearly, she's not the leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest,

they're just the mom activists of this specific group. i'm calling oscar regimented just a group of me able in years i'm in the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and the fighters and the, let's not forget the trauma to most participated in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys. polls are international to prove that she one elections, she received 2 or 3000000 the vote. so the communist regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters in the ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they are they disorder from huge respects from we all support their if they what you say, they are popular, they are not popular. respond additions. there are soldiers because they sacrifice

me a lie, a notice to, to save ukraine, because they understand that when ukraine we, the wind as well. so they are not seen of the part of the opposition than now they are fighters, with some of the device and petitions from the fighters and military volunteers. schools are in the cranium. army of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school, where seem by many ukrainians as aggressions. i'm calling those key regimen. they prove that not old delusions are like lucas and the regime and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minute, 2nd, sky. you keep saying in this interview, that the national leader of bella rules and she has, keeps calling us out the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that almost from every country she comes. she smell on the presidential level in the parliament. she sold this address. madam president,

to be just and was, there is no, there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of bellows are, there is the fact recognition. there is the level of vertical which are defined as far as the kind of state. there is no years from this years. we don't to, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just the game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas shan't go counts as leader of bellows and not music taken us less. sure, that's true. and this is, this is the problem for us because loose nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly. and they vote for very often in supports of proposals who cushion called russian the in the show. this is why we

are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we already spoke latin america. we have some, some relation there will be a, reached out our pre car services page as well. but the local for worker to be done . but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or courses. so the european union, what percentage not recognized as the leader? and now we are asking the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr . scott is also sought to find the common cause with the ukrainians. we began to think redundant, but the ukraine was, let's talk about the war. she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location,

space and power. there will be counts from threat to ukraine. like it's happened in february, february, this year, lucretia, and the problem is that they will load the attack from bella territory. and suddenly this attack happened and russian things, some most the reached kia from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with some people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship. again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and to work to connect with some resist in a ration of supply and forces situation and better. some grain are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, sure chicken hasn't yet been able to meet president landscape. when is that going to happen? yes, she met her officially on the informally a dilemma for public events. it will happen when there will be willing cranium. but

she's very good relationship with the whole now the ukrainian parliament. we had good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but you understand why ukrainians dumped me per they don't want to provoke in question. is it also because they do not trust her? no, i think because there was a clear crime of lucas shared key. if we need to come most care locations or can escalate the conflict against the crane or even introduced troops, so for ukrainians, for the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognize, had a national leader of barrels efficiently. i think if her, if, if luca introduced her troops notice troops to, to craig, this process will be speed it up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her . but right now they are very cautious. they don't want to get to play with fire.

it's been a pleasure talking to you will have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us today for a knock via taca. ah . with

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