how lucky that i was able to build the juices in berlin because it's very closely related to me as a person who is architecture is a celebration of democracy and peace. ah, some buildings. the biggest thing in the world is the spirit of freedom. he amazes the world with his buildings and architect of emotions. architecture is kind of a mystery leafy. daniel, the biscuit starts december 25th on d. w. heavy fighting continues in east in ukraine, withdrawn and missile attacks on major cities at infrastructure. russia's president putin is leading his war of aggression, no matter the cost, the war is bringing death and destruction to ukraine, but it is also changing power structures. in europe,

toland and the baltic states are gaining traction in the un nato. many eastern europeans take responsibility and display leadership. while western europe appears to dither. we ask the war and ukraine is eastern europe leading the continents response. hello, welcome to to the point. let me introduce today's pat. that's frank hoffman. eastern europe corresponded at d, w. and there's a vendor, lena fun but a little belin corresponded and bureau chief for the economist magazine on joining us from bon another. d w. a colleague, brahman, gone to rank, hope trauma, russia desk. i'd like to start with you a roman looking at the front lines right now. what kind of help does you cry

ukraine need right now? well, it hasn't changed. you can still needs a mission. it needs more weapons. heavy weapons like tanks like long range missiles, because we are now dealing with a de facto a stalemate. russia is trying to achieve some, some trying, trying offensive in the east and ukraine by the city of baltimore in the region of the an ask because a roger is trying to compensate for the defeated had just a few months ago in eastern ukraine and in southern ukraine in the regions like hockey and her song. so russia just trying to copy each success as of june, where i could just a successful attack and occupy several ukrainian towns and there. and as the winter is coming, it's very cold. and i mean, nice, nice being used very,

very fast. ukraine needs more ammunition and more heavy weapons rama as he just said, went through his approach. and it's clear that ukraine, of course, needs further help. the usa aside, one could see that eastern european nations are the most important supporters right now, is their view on this war, the view from the east, further east? is it more accurate than the western view? well, it's proven to be more accurate, certainly in terms of, you know, they, them, in particular, poland, but other countries to warning about russian, russia about the danger posed by russia. and i sort of until recently dismissing it a little bit as you know, panic and, and, and deposed being of a sensitive they were proven. absolutely. right. and in that sense, i think we are listening much more to what they have to say, and they should listen much more because they, they were spot on. do they have your parents to have a better understanding of russia and of who do they have now?

and they have before we have some about germany as a central state of the european union, was following a policy that totally failed. this is a political disaster for germany, for foreign policy and economical policies that were implemented during the last 3030 years after the fall of the berlin wall trade with russia using russian gas and in the same time delivering a lot of goods to russia for keeping the fossil fuel industry running there, a lot of equipment was sent from germany from the german economy there. so, but this policy failed, obviously, where's the baltic states? poland, and other central eastern european states have exactly warned of this scenario. and of course it's, it's naturally that the one who was right at the moment when something like this is happening, a war in europe. imagine the 1st war in europe since since the was in the balkans

in the 1990 s. it's natural, i guess that the side that, that warrant of the scenario has a stronger position, politically, also in the european union. does it have, does it have that strong a roman please, please do. just a follow up. i think sure to yes, maybe it's a too long perspective to look at it. the red lights should have gone on in the year, 2008 as russia for to was georgia. and at the latest 2014, with the annexation of crimea. but germany tried to do before maybe was not so wrong to try to establish new relationship with russia. try to no trade with russia, but it failed. it failed and it was obvious in 2014. and since then, it was a mistake by the german government to believe that they could continue more or less the same and doing business with russia and hoping there would be no for the war. that was the mistake. and this is what they kind of like pulling all the baltic

states were wanting about overly the many point to anglo market these days as being responsible for kind of bringing up a lot of reporting. would you agree and well, we are certainly of rethinking her legacy when she left last year she left in a blaze of glory. she was a seam, generally as a one for statement, certainly abroad may be in germany with a little bit more. and he asked, and yes, i mean it, this, she certainly has support of notes for him to with hindsight seems utterly misguided and a big mistake. and in her defense, she rallied other european union members after 2014, after the invasion of crimea for tougher sanction. so it was actually her body either together. so she is, i think she understood quite well that putin came from. and i, as she speaks fashion, as we know at the end, it's not that she doesn't understand russia, but she certainly made mistakes and i think and as to was one not stream to that

pipeline was one of the biggest ones that i don't, i don't, but absolute because she's arguing in the latest one of the few interviews she gave just recently, she's arguing that she argued that she bought ukraine time to develop and to become a democracy that really can defend itself against russia. nowadays, i don't buy this really because in the same time we have to look a little bit into the interior politics of ukraine. ukraine has, has had many, many different precedence a democratically elected since the independence of the beginning of the 1990. additionally, they had to revolutions their own to revolution and then the, the, the, the people that the students of the euro, my darn, where the kids of the orange revolution, which means there was a process ongoing, a pro european process of a process of democratization. i don't, i want to mentioned the oligarchy and,

and the corruption in this come in the ukraine as well. i, i'd, i bought it, i don't want to have a whip over painted. but as a matter of fact, here you heart a development that was very much comparable to other to other central european states like poland this not not to see that as the democrat is kind of, um we it to me. you mentioned poland. there is one country in particular that has worn again and again over hooton's intention and is now at the forefront of those helping you crammed with weapons with aid and with political influence. poland does what it can, and more how, lenders firmly on ukraine side, the country is not only a harp for western arms deliveries. it also supplies heavy equipment itself, including more than $200.00 soviet designed battle times. in total, poland has supplied weapons worth almost 2000000000 euros to its neighbour more than any other e u. country. boy,

none of the warren ukraine must be won by the free world must be won by ukraine for us. this is a prerequisite for our safety. it's all about security. another reason why poland is a model pupil for nato. the country wants to increase defense spending from 2.4 percent of g d p to 5 percent. in addition, the polish military is to be increased to $300000.00 service men and women. poland is also at the forefront of humanitarian aid. the country has taken in the most refugees. the baltics also support ukraine with humanitarian and military aid. lithuania, latvia and estonia want ukraine, and nato is the influence of eastern europeans and nato, and the e u. growing yet, let's put as quick a question straight to you render. lena is the influence growth growing?

can poland, for example, still be ignored? no, poland cannot be ignored and its influence has grown that it was proven right. it is doing proper in proportion to its size and its economic power. probably more than nearly all other countries may be the baltic states and excluded. so um, so poland should be hard and certainly the power that the center of gravity is shifting eastward. but france and germany still remained the motor of the e. u and the most important countries. and suddenly the y, my triangle, pearl and france and g many is something that may be revived. i mean, i think the jury is still out because it had been served quite a bible format and then crumbled. but, but certainly something is changing or has already changed for you have reported from my, let's call it the visa grad states. right. the, the, or that's the hungary or the check republics, vakio and poland. it can these, for, for example, maybe including the, the baltic states. can these be viewed as

a can here and block inside the you are not when you see poland and hungary at none because mr. alba and the prime minister of hunger in budapest is following a pro russia policy. and they're still try to keep certain ties with a kremlin. i think they'll unity that there's a shift between because just before the invasion of to february 24, this year, hungary was very close with poland because both capitals, the majorities in the parliament were following nationalistic polar policy. however, this is changing at the moment. what i find very interesting is, when you go to brussels, we had talks a final talks about the price cat on imported crude oil from russia. and there was a good chance the 1st time since the invasion of february 24, the germany of which would be over voted over ruled by

a relative majority in brussels, including eastern central, this eastern european central states that you just mentioned. that's interesting because this shows the power shift in the structure of the european union and in the institutions. and this is practically what the founders of the lisbon treaty, which is the current basis of the european union, had inside roman holly. you see this? do you see a growing growing influence of the, the eastern european states and the baltic states in the you and also inside nato? yes, i do see that. and it started before this russian invasion, ukrainian started after bricks. it, when great britain left the european union, the inference of eastern europe started to grow. but of course, countries like germany and france remain the biggest and most powerful countries, economically. and militarily, i'm, i think we should,

we should look at it like these countries like poland, like the baltic states. we should also not forget romania which is doing a lot for ukraine. i've been there and i saw how much it does to help ukraine as a neighboring country to take refugees. military help is coming through romania. also. these countries understand raj a very good because they have a very long relationship with the former soviet union. they know what russia thinks and how dangerous it is, what we are seeing now, since the russian invasion. and these countries also remember want to russia, said about a year ago when it's practically demanded, the nato east expansion to be turned back. this is the just just remember the document, the russian presented. they wanted the situation of 997 back again. and so these countries understand what is at stake and maybe one more point, we should not just look for eastern europe. we should also look for the north to countries like sweden and finland that are joining nato,

and they're joining nato is also making a shift within their lines. so maybe i'm wrong, but i think that we are now facing that this in eastern europe and northern europe is something like western germany during the cold war. it is the front. this is where the things are developing, where decisions are taking. and this is where the military mind is also being assembled. now, i think we've clearly established that there is a passive in inside the you and also inside nato. a how do the western partners, namely france and germany? this power shift because they've created the vacant really fathers to fill. absolutely. well, 1st of all, the french and the germans at the moment. it's not the easiest relationship between paris and berlin. so that's, that, that's of, in a way contributes to strengthening the am eastern europeans. and i think there's a lot of good will. but some of these governments are quite difficult to deal with

. in particular, the polish government opponent has been heroic in so many ways in this conflict. but on many other issues, particularly the rule of law, judges traditional reform. you know that there are tensions with brussels, so it's not an easy relationship. but, but i think everybody acknowledges that eastern europeans have an important vice and one that we should listen to much more than the past few agreed with important voices. maybe just one short remark on the estonian leader. kindness is very present in the media and she does some very tough um, tough statements and some even see her as the new angela merkel like a leader of the western europe. free world. definitely, she's saying the right things, but it's tony is too small. a country to be very much influential and poll. poland is also for, for several reasons. cannot be the leader in that process. so i think it's, it's maybe the whole region, the destroying to, i wouldn't say establish itself as

a new center of power. but is, is trying to gain our own importance. and if we, if we look at it, just like and maybe to, to spread the influence not just to germany in france, but to eastern europe as well. frank, limited does come back to frank would. would you agree that the western states actually welcome more east european leadership as a form? yes. and also democratically speaking. this should be the case because you have certain amount us millions of people you use citizens living in this part of the european union and they need to re presentation. interestingly, even that we all know that poland was criticized very rightly about judical if reform and the lack of rule of law and a read nationalization process in the same time the public in poland was and is

utterly pro, you pay more than 60 percent interest reasons opinion paul said no, we want to be in the european union and we want to play a role here. so from a political democratic will view. um, we are in a normalization process at the moment in my yes and no because i mean all this is conditional and also the eastern europeans playing by the rules. so you know, the rule of law and democracy is important. so you can't say, well, we want to be more important and we want to get lots of subsidies, brussels, but we do a little bit, you know, with our judiciary and the media, the freedom of the media, we can do it our way. you know, i mean, it has to be a 2 way street. i agree with you at this point. however, i also think that there are a lot of poles, citizens of poland who are wondering why the european union and the institutions as such are not more, are not doing much more against this, these,

these type of policies. and i think here we have, we have to go back to the state where we are in the opinion in the you pin union at the moment we are working on the basis of the discipline treaty. and obviously this treaty is not made for the 21st century as we see now. um, because there are not many forms and possibly capabilities of the institutions to intervene. and when i say normalization, that also means that we get this democratic power from these east central eastern european states to have their word. and i expect that we will have changes in the structure the european union very soon. in particular, when it comes to a majority vote at the moment, there has to be anonymity when it comes to foreign policy issues in the council on this will change re soon also with the help of the citizens of country like countries like poland. this is how i, i, if i put it here, i'd like to come back to the war in ukraine there,

1000000000 euros to get ukraine through the winter. that was the pledge of the donor conference in paris on tuesday. that's an impressive result. ukraine has had enough pledges of help with temperatures below 0 and infrastructure shot to pieces . ukraine says it needs results and fast and not more promises. revenue. we will continue to support ukraine for as long as it takes since the very beginning of the war. we were very hot together in order to well to grant resist and to be resilient . and we, the european union stand here by them in these very difficult times, as long as it takes hardly a week goes by without new pledges of age being made to ukraine for the place of the people as growing, destroyed schools, factories and hospitals, and repeatedly failing energy supply in the middle of winter. moreover, the country lacks more than money, equipment, weapons,

and concepts to piece. the e. u, however seems leaderless. the ones franco, german axis is no longer a pillar of support. instead, the heads of europe's 2 largest economies are trying to go it alone, thinking primarily of national interests is power shifting in the e u. r. with that to, to you again. and lena, you've mentioned that the relationship between paris and berlin is not great at the moment, or 4 years and years as there was nothing to be done inside the you without the support of france and germany such entered. and no, i think that'll continue to be the case. they're just dead too big. those 2 countries, if you just even look at the population but and it, it could be at expanded to a triangle with poland. but then for that i think the polish government needs to either change or be a bit more collaborative and and m s. so the short answer is no,

it's not completely changing, but it's going to be still defend with a stronger isn't european vice from germany many point to germany as being the main culprits in sort of blocking more help, more, more and faster help to ukraine. is that the view from eastern europe as well? um, i think when it comes to supply of weapons, definitely, yes. however, i think many people in central eastern europe to understand that germany as the biggest economy of the european union, is helping automatically a lot when the european union is helping a lot. and we just agreed on a package of 16 to 17000000000 euros of health for ukraine as of january 23. and that was agreed with germany. of course, it says it's an interesting figure because with this package that is mainly a broader financial help for, for the, for ukraine as a structure to exists for,

for this war time economy to move on and, and help people that are suffering terribly at the moment. um, they, the european union surpassed the united states when it comes to numbers in hope as of next year. of course, the united states is still the main weapons supplier, but you cannot look reference on one thing in the military. it is one thing and to keep this war time the states nation in war times running is another very important issue obviously. and i think people in central is near to see that i'm and i think what is a little bit hard to understand for many in central eastern european, in central eastern europe in the countries. is that the shift germany made politically since february to $24.00 is really major shift. let's start with that. the federal republic never or tried not to exports,

veterans into war torn regions of the world that has changed completely. and, and this will be, i think, at the end of the day, we will have to see when this voice over who helps what with watts and then we can restart to integrate the european union. i want to put this question to roman as well. do you agree that there is on the staff in eastern or central and eastern europe for let's say germany is reluctant position? well, there was danger of misunderstandings and there was a lot of criticism in eastern europe, of the german position after the russian invasion. and before, but things have changed as frank absolutely correctly, as just said, look at the figures. the recent figures show us that germany is number a number one on weapons supply to ukraine in the european union. and in the whole world is number 3 after united states and united kingdom. and we remember germany

was very reluctant even to allow countries like estonia to deliver former former eastern germans houses to ukraine. this has changed completely and i think this is something ukraine very much appreciate. the thing is though, from the ukrainian point of view, you can't very much appreciate all help that is getting from the west and from europe militarily, economically, humanitarian help millions of ukrainians here in europe. but the thing is very simple from key of keeps point of view. you should give us more weapons so that we can stop this war sooner. because there is not much time for us. the winter is there, it's called the fighting continues. russia is not giving up so instead of sending us out of blankets and whatever, just send us a better tanks and planes or military jets. and this is probably something we'll see next year. ok, i, i'd like to interrupt you here because we're running out of time. i'd like to go to the final round and establish is power really shifting inside the

you inside the you and inside nato. and where does it shift to? it is shifting. it's shifting a search it, i think it's a permanent shift, but still it's going to be permanent. oh yeah. after yes, i think but, but germany and france will still remain for the time being that most of you are the 2 most important companies. you agree? i agree when it comes to the shift military lee, because this contains of russia will have to go on, which means that eastern europe and the central eastern european use states will be on the front line for a long period of time. and you agree that will be permanent for the time being as a or tech? yes, i'm sure it is shifting and it's a good thing. it was a, from a role, but i'd like to try my, a pamela here in the studio. that's it. from us for today,

i hope you enjoyed our discussion. we are curious what you think, so let us know if you're watching on youtube. leave your comments right down below . also hit the subscribe button and do share this show with your friends on social media. thanks very much for watching cnx a with

ah ah, ah. he fled putin's war on this spike. a russian desert in georgia, and around 100000 young men are seeking refuge in the neighboring country.

how do they feel in this foreign land? and how they received by the local population focus on europe. 90 minutes on d. w. ah . i wish i could have done more to save you discovery toys that me just a click away. find out best documentary on you to read this morning to see the world as you've never seen it before. dr. now t d w documentary stories that most people of the world over information.

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ah ah ah, this is the w news live from berlin tonight in ukraine attacks in the city of here song to people are dead thousands without power and heat. since you grade retook the southern city last month it has faced repeated attacks by russian forces. also coming up tonight, european union leaders.