in the 16th century, it meant being a captain and setting sail to discover a route, a race links to military interests, a race linked to political than 2 minutes with an adventure full of hardships, dangers, and death. but jones journey around the world starts january 19th. a conflict in ukraine is only one of the wars vladimir putin is fighting at home. he's cracked down viciously on descent and opposition. hooton's chief target in russia has been this man. i like say val me. now, in jail with his anti corruption foundation band and labeled extremists, they're calling on russians to do whatever they can to stop the war and ukraine.

but what about the dangers in taking on the spank? my guest this week in exile in london is one of the bounties associates, like the man i shall call, organized a position in russia that can dissipate in the elections. that can launch campaign they can do organized, must it? it's really not possible at this point. for now, the group is naming and shaming thousands of officials or supporting the voice ukraine. but how far will that vent putin's power and why despite so many common goals, are russian opposition groups still fighting amongst themselves for ready? mash. ok, welcome to conflict on its way to be with you. at the beginning of this month, associates of alexei and the valley, or for what they put it as

a partisan underground in russia to resist the war. in ukraine, your organization is banned, it's labeled extremists. so anybody who answers your call is taking quite a risk and they let us put us into context throughout its history. and pickups. foundation and election only have been operating in russia at the peak of folk dividends with had a regional network of branches and over 40 cities. we had about 200 people working for us in moscow. in spring of last year, our new ration has been deemed extremist and we had to relocate all the key people outside of russia. now when the roster started brutal aggression against ukraine in february, even more restrictive measures will put in place at the same time,

we are constantly monitoring what goes on in russia in different regions. and over the last few months, we have been feeling that the discontent is growing. and our goal is to use our connection, our networks, the people who used to work with us, our volunteers, to try to supplement this discontent and provide some organizational structure. yeah. you say times have changed. penalties have changed, your organization is no longer legal. it's on a par with islamic state, it's been declared. you know, it's been declared extremist. you're asking people to spread information, provide legal assistance, but also, and this is the most risky pot, sabotaged the work of military enlistment centers. and the danger of getting caught

doing that is what there is a danger in russia now, just to go out to the street with a leg piece of paper because they assume you're protesting against the war. at the same time, we encourage all russian people inside russia, outside of russia, to do their part, to stop this war. and to bring down this a talkative, resume of, of a lot of puts it, everybody chooses what they do according to their own abilities, according to their own beliefs and appetites for reese. but to confront this regime is i think, a duty off any reasonable person. and that we want to put the tools into the hands of people who believe that they can do more and who can little little bits and pieces spread out leaflets in some

cases, sabotage, etc, etc. it's all completely sabotage isn't bits and pieces. sabotage is a pretty serious thing to get engaged in. yes, but, but it is our goal to bring down this resume and sabotage is one of the non violent instruments to do that. how is it done? value sabotage? how's that? number people have been blowing up enlistment centers haven't been blowing up. i've never, i think to mistaken, there has never been a blow up of in miss min center, or are they they have been studying fired to an enlistment center that enlists people to fight in this unfair and brutal war is i think, is very commendable. we definitely support this activity and that's what we're doing. we created a system that allows people to rename anonymous. so we try as much as

possible to limit the risk of this networks to be discovered by authorities. but ultimately the person decides himself herself. what is the level of risk that they can tolerate in fighting is brutal resume. your organization has been clear that the russian people simply going to overthrow putin . it's just not going to happen. so. so in the grand scheme of things, the kind of resistance you're asking for, cannot justify the risks you're asking people to take. i think 3 change in russia will come from a combination of these suspects in the political and business to lead the russia and the y discontents in the population. and both of those groups of people

were having quite a hard time since that was started. people at the top have seen their fortunes decimated their lifestyle when they had a vacation in western europe. when the children go to british private schools. when the yacht, more than italy has been centered. and for an average person, they have seen inflation. they have seen familiar foreign brands living rasa. and now they see a constant stream of coffins coming back from your crate and for what the military ration has not been going very successfully for russian army. so these processes take time, but a point they will reinforce each other, and that's i think the only last bowl scenario for chase. you talk about people

seeing coffins returning from the war. people are also seeing hundreds put in jail, many facing 15 year sentences for resisting in the most trivial ways. maybe they once gave money to an organization like yours that's now banned. police inform us everywhere. who knows how many may have penetrated your organisations? what's been the response to your call for this part is an underground we are basing our efforts on more than a decade of work in russia, in different regions. before that was started, we had all were 10000000 subscribers to different different social networks that was broadcasting our message.

we had an email distribution, leave a list of over a 1000000 people. so we are not starting from scratch. and obviously we for, for understandable reasons. we don't disclose the response and we don't disclose the scale of the 60 of it is but we are white of mystic. the response has been dozens of thousands of people who would like to participate in this network. mister shock of one of your most ambitious ventures has been to compile a list of 6000 rushes, said to be bribe takers. war mongers corrupt officials, propaganda the people you accuse of enabling the invasion of ukraine. are you not concerned that this is the equivalent of sort of painting

a target on the back and encouraging people to shoot them? indeed, there have been a many people who are the pillars of these resumed people who are. busy involved in war propaganda, people who are officials in various levels of freshman government, business man connected to portuguese regime, his kronos and the 4 years our team has been advocating sanctions personal thanks against the perpetrators of human rights, abusers against people involved in corruption. but our poles have been falling on deaf ears. it has been a trickle in terms of thanks and even after the rough are often in the station of crimea and meddling in ukraine. now,

after the war we've seen an avalanche of sanctions, and it was important for us to make suggestions to western governments to make their sanctions policy more nuanced. and we came up with this list that we advocate and we law be whereas western governments that these people are included. they are people who have contributed to start over the war and who are now continuing to support the war that's that's, that's has been the sort of the premise of our projects and it has received quite why quite good

support from the governments in the e. u. in the u. s. and the u. k. just recently there was a resolution passed in the us house of representatives calling for the executive branch to review the 200 most most visible the, the top priority 200 people from our list in terms of thank seeing them in the us. so i think it's working. one important aspect i want to list in yes, just briefly, just briefly by september, 5 months after you went public. there are only some 50 people on the list who had contacted you and asked to be taken off it. are you surprised that the vast majority seemed completely untroubled, bio accusations and just ignored the shaming? the actual number is over a 100 times,

mostly out of 6 out of out of out of 6. how many is it? it's not many to me. anything that's above 0, if a person changes his mind in terms of support of the war in terms of being part of the government structures being on the board of process states and company is that already a lot. because without our list, this number would be 0. so it has been over a 100. we are on student li, reviewing this list every 2 weeks. there are some updates we take people out if there are reasons to believe that they don't, they no longer qualify for being on the list. we'll make additions and,

and specifically the, the nature of our list is that we want to use it not as much as a instrument of punishment, but then as an estimate of persons, so that less people support the war and contribute to it. so for instance, if we take western sanctions, it has been a one way ticket, a person, an official, or a business man is sanctioned. and there is nothing they can do that can remove them from this list with us. it's different if you're in the board of a state company, if you resign or if you're in the top management of a state company agency or means ation resign, send us proof of that and we'll review it and we'll take you out. so, okay. all right, our list is live. to date your,

the best known opposition group in russia and you've had some remarkable successes . you lifted the lead on a huge amount of corruption. you've shown films, pollutants, palace, for instance. you have name names and reported on wide ranging corruption, $12000000.00 views a month on youtube, something like that. but what sign is there? but any of that has materially affected putins support in the country. the valley has said, put in is afraid of the truth, but put it simply simply shrugs off your truth as fake news. what's he got to be afraid of? it's not easy to fight and oppressive regime like witches. we have been doing it for a number of years. there are some objective benchmarks, how you can judge at success of political movement. i think the most objective result was the results of election of moscow mayor in 2013

when alexis was able to participate. that's, that's sort of an objective measure the results of an election. so he got 28 percent of well as opposed to 50 was for the convent man. so, and that was despite all their administrative obstacles that was despite navarro, and they being a sort of a new commer, despite the incumbent mayor, having all the sources, all the resources that the power was able to give him 9 years ago. she'll go about everything has changed since then. everything has changed. what has put in got to be afraid of. now the van is in jail and your organization is banned and labeled extremist. once you've got to be afraid of, as they said, it will be the white discontents in population and the

disillusionment with the regime in the lead. if you, even if you talk about close circle of fortune, they are really not happy with the state of affairs. they afraid of fortune and of his security protest, but they of course would like to go back to how things work and they were able to enjoy their wealth. they were integrated in the west and they were able to enjoy the lifestyle that they were used to. now it's all broken and that's what needs to be afraid. there's a big factor, of course, what happens on the battlefields all ukraine. all right, i want to come to that,

i want to come to that a little later, but i want to talk also about the opposition movement in general in russia. and plenty of people have talked about the disunity that seems to attend these groups. why hasn't your organization put more effort into improving relations with other opposition groups? after all, you share quite a few goals, don't you with each other? indeed, we have been working with a very democratic political force as well years. we created the coordination council in 2012. we participated in a number of elections together with different other democratic forces. not always work out, did it. i mean, these ended up, you ended up squabbling with other groups. i remember in 2021. when was the last election? 2021. the opposition?

the opposition member and i see a brew shianna. she said the opposition can't be united. a liberal. can't agree with a nationalist or communist. it's simply impossible. it's a big drawback, this kind of this unity isn't it? not feel it that people who make real effort at trying to do something useful and not just talk. they achieve success as we are in contact with various opposition groups. but the thing that made me an hour or a successful, and we increase our ignition and we're able to create the regional networks. and we were able now to keep dozens of people in our office outside of russia is that we focus just on

a few things we do investigations. we do media work, our youtube channels are probably the. busy most popular curren news sources in russia, and now we're restoring this work in russia for our regional network. and we have a certain hierarchy, we have about 70 people, most lindsey illness in a few other european cities as well, who work full time on this. and for us to go in forces with somebody that has to be a goal, the other part is need to bring something to the table. it's not enough, just to be a blogger, with 50000 followers,

to be able to join forces with us and to have equal why says in what we do, ms. cheryl cough do you ever foresee a time when no valley or your group could possibly emerge again as a serious political contender on russia's national stage? i off because bloody man, me love for my minister and economic advisor in the valley. he said last week that russia is organized, opposition is destroyed. there is no mechanism. he said, for public discontent to translate into political change. can you honestly tell me is wrong? well, i think he's one of the, one of your closest advisors. absolutely. but of all, you always need to put words in the context. indeed, if you protest openly against the war and against him,

brutality in russia, you will be fine and you will be detained. and ultimately you will be j. that's the situation. so in this organized a position in russia that can participate in elections that can launch campaigns. they can, that can do organized, must protests. it's really not possible at this point. but the millions of people who supported us, who supported other democratic forces, many of whom, who had to move out of fresh air. they didn't go anywhere. and once the elliptical situation ross change a gradual liberalization and, and still it is with the ukraine and start off some sort of

communication with the west in a constructive way. once that starts. and i believe that it will start within the next 5 years. maybe even earlier, i think there will be a opening for us and for our, the democratic forces to enter the rest, some politics properly. if the war is as long and bitter as some people fear, what do you think that will do to russia? you said, you think that might be an end to hostilities over the next 5 years. do you see any sign of deep and abiding changes taking place in the country as a result of this war? different people believe in different things in terms of war. from where we see it's today, it's difficult to envision that the war will and in the next few months,

i think it's something like a year in the year. i think as it is a reasonable prediction that the facilities will stop. why they don't want, what makes you say that i think within a year it's reasonable to expect that ukrainian army will make a few more significant advances on the battlefield. we see that the rust from military capability is deteriorating, while ukraine's capability and the flow of arms and coordination is improving. they already balled enough to launch attacks in the sort of, in, in the jewell. busy of ross from navy in several stapo naval base

in crimea. going to give up in the end go home. that's not what i said. i'm saying that the military of the bill, it is the balance of power, is shifting for ukraine and we will see that manifesting itself on the battlefield. they cannot make sanctions placed on russia. we'll be taking the great deal toll be. and of course, the law says from the ukrainian front are taking are affecting the the mood of frost and public. ah, me. so i think in the year these, for us is when believes to offset beliefs. and again, we're all speaking in probabilities and possibilities here to ross's inability to

continue the war. all right, my prediction, matthew mash, oak of it's been good to have you on the program. thank you very much indeed. being on conflict, so thank you. thank you for having me. ah ah, ah, ah, ah ah

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