oh, with vickers, paralyzing to your societies. computers that have some are you and governments that go crazy for your data. we explain how these technologies work, how they can send for and how they can also terribly watch it. now, you too, it's almost a year since russia invaded ukraine with no peace talks or cease fire of any kind in prospect. and yet president putin insist the war is showing a positive trend. my guest this week from moscow is dimitri training for my army officer. and former director of the carnegie moscow center, which was shut down last april with tens of thousands of its soldiers killed

a little progress on the ground. the kremlin is taking its own survival on the outcome of the war in the mines of fulton. and i think a lot of people around him, we are in a go on, in which russia is very distant. but why did moscow go to war? just as the west of the gun, the dialog putin has been demanding and has moscow now move the world once and for all from nuclear deterrence to nuclear blackmail. oh me pretending welcome to conflict zone. thank you very much jim. it's a pleasure to be with you. we've had almost a year of war in ukraine, tens of thousands of people, dad, many thousands more injured, mass destruction and misery. what good has any of this brought to russia? there is no good. that that's the job. yes. the issue is this could have easily

been prevented, but it wasn't. and that makes it the real tragedy. as russia are bitten off more than it can chew, russia and certainly confronting the most difficult issue militarily, politically, socially internationally. something that i think very few people been thought that it would have to confront. but it's coping it's learning. it's improving friends, but it's hard. it's going to be hard for, for quite some time. i'm sure you say it's coping and improving things. what should we read into all the changes of command desperation, kremlin anger at the failure so far? i think that would be very superficial. there's certainly any amount of anger you

can imagine, although, but what's happening on the ground in various places. but i think you should read into that and move to a streamline the chain of command and to prepare for i think more decisive action. a lot of people in russia were complaining and still complaining that russia is fighting with its hand almost tied behind its back. and that made change where they a new structure. and i think a new, a strategy that lives behind it. moscow's been attempting to stifle criticism with the threat of up to 15 year jail sentences for discrediting the army. and yet the chechen leader runs on cuz they are off and you have gaining pre, goes in front of boot in and had of the wagner must. and regroup, they haven't meant that was have that,

is it one law for the elite and one law for everybody else? well, i would put it differently. there's. i wouldn't call it one law, but there's one approach to the people in be call it patriarch to camp and another one for the people who openly critical not only of the decisions by the commander in chief of the or of the war effort. russia is a country at war this time, even if it's officially a state of war, or martial law has not been declared in russia. but the reality is that russia is a war. so no effort is being sped. i think to make sure that this war with all the probations, misery, tragedies, and all that does not lead to any serious in terms of the stabilisation and

people on the other side are certainly working to instill a measure of larger measure of destabilization into the russian social fabric. yeah. but if even the patriotic crowd are saying things about rushes, commanders, like all these boston should be sent barefoot to the front with automatic guns. you tend to wonder how wide spread in moscow is that discontent with the way the war is being handled? well, i think you should appreciate that very few people even a few years ago. imagine that there would be anything like this war for russia to fight. 10 years ago, the russian, the russian defense minister declared, basically that europe has ceased to be a potential theater of war for russia. and now russia is fighting a war. we just imagine that wherever country whose population is believed to be

officially believe to be in russia, but of the same people with russia. it's, it's just mind boggling that russia has been able to, to fight their way because it has fought over the past 11 months, given the relations between the ukrainians and russians, given the relations between russia and the west. so, you know, i'm not surprised that the at the level of anger and mutual recrimination, i'm somewhat surprised that it is, it's still held in check, but there's still very wide latitude that people enjoy people on the right side if you like that that these people enjoy when they discuss things on the battlefield and discuss things at the head for us, it doesn't limits. the whole thing is not limited to just the me, the day,

the to amend your mention. but a whole ray of a walk or respondents using the freedom. freedom of speech to the hilt, i would say, well, what's left of it in tongue you'll get on the free press hasn't been a huge well look, i wouldn't want to, to engage with you in a discussion about the freedom of the press of the media. i have a very but say critical you of that, whether in russia or outside of russia, i'm not talking about that. but if you, if you will, to read, if you were able to read russian and read a telegram channels that are both available to all citizens of russia, you'll be surprised that how much criticism sometimes justified, sometimes unjustified. you will hear you will read actually on those telegram

channels. to be true trying to has russia underestimated the west determination to help you crane or is it still claim to the idea that in the end, nato will lose interest and leave ukraine to its own devices? well, i think that the initial concept of the special military operation was very different from what has been unfolding since may be early march of last year. and had russia been able to achieve what goals were there a couple of weeks, a couple of months there, and i think they would not have been that much that their west would have been able to do to support kids. so there's, there's been supported k f that it couldn't achieve its goals movement. well, not really. i think that the, again, i don't know what the original concept was,

but it looks like it was, it was more of a special operation going a military one. and that i think was be, was the cause of what happened after that. but this is water under the bridge. i think certainly one thing was not anticipated that the west would steal colette freeze on band confiscate russia as currency reserve in western currencies. and that, i think was not appreciated, that the west would be able to do that. because that was thought to be, you know, over over a certain line that the west would do and that money was but not hold back before the start of the operation. so that's what. busy what did they expect the

west to do? just complain a little and forget about it. to use whatever means where the disposal to show that for the russia was causing him. if you go back and read what was written in the western newspapers at the end of 21 and early 22, when there was a lot of discussion of an imminent russian attack against your grade, the people didn't go nearly as far as what we're seeing today, people but talking, but switching off switch for russia and things like that. it's interesting that maybe the west was sort of lowering russia. ukraine by professing to do intend to do too little to help your grade. i don't know. well, this is a joke. i still, i just don't think that the west at that time,

that intricate the strategies of the russia and your grade. but russia give them the west, a big boost and in particular, it's given nato a big boost, hasn't it? no, it's not. it was, it didn't want out of this up around so far. yes, that's true. that's true in a way, but not in a very big way because just frankly, russians have long thought russians. i mean, those russians make decisions. those russians who are the russians who run the place, those russians have long assigned western europe, or all of europe outside of russia to, to the u. s. camp, mr. book to called european countries battles of the united states. so there were no big surprises, except maybe one that germany was shooting itself in the fort by revising its energy policy and ruptured energy links with russia. that's,

that was perhaps the only surprise that people that people in this, the sun. you told people on february the 24th so long as the war last, i won't say or write a word, but good harm, the russian army, its leadership, or the commander in chief. does that mean you repudiate all the critical views of putin that you express before february 24th? well, i stand by everything written and said before the 24th and after the 24th. i will go road record is telling the spiegel correspondent, the russia is intervention to support the dumbass rebels. was the most serious mistake of putin foreign policy. do you still think that well, let me, let me tell you this. i'm sure that mister pooty believed that i was not working for russia. when he made that decision there was certainly

a need to do something about about ukraine, about done best. busy and i think that was coming to a decision, but the, the original concept of the operation, i don't know what it was, but it seemed to me was flawed. and i think this is something that a lot of people today in russia ship. but as i said, this is water under the bridge. this is not the time to criticize the. busy the they is the commander in chief where we faced the situation in which the west they combined west, as you said, is up in arms against stuff and well in the proxy war against the united states and its major partners and some other countries. and that's the reality in which you operate. the united states and nato have been negotiating european security with

russia. so the security rest on 2 pillars rather than one. why launch a war? then when the process the russia had wanted and demanded was actually on the way, well, i sent the form of the board for the russian general staff. the key question was whether the westward entertain. and that they decide on the idea of no nato membership for ukraine and no need to a presence in ukraine. that was chief of been key for put in, but, but in your view, before the war started my, my, your while in my view and i expressed in various ways, including in a book that was published

a couple of years ago that i believe that russia is both soviet foreign policy, 2 things were, were damaging, were good, could, would qualify as, as huge mistakes. one is the russian policy toward ukraine, which essentially was no policy and reliance on money, essentially. and your connections with a few people which again to me the did not amount to a policy. and 2nd, the the preoccupation where nato enlargement, in my view of the best way to to respond to nato enlargement would be to, to oppose the united po, to, to, but the united states of the same position of perio that russia would be put due to nato enlargement, but just to be clear, but just to be clear on that, if you,

you were saying in january that you didn't believe nato expansion was any great threat to russia. when i subbed that, i would stand by that today. but it, let's say a historical way we are worn out in prior to 24 february. well, they're not at war. and a lot of things could have been done differently, including, and i think primarily by the west which day, why not? and again, my point was goes right in which the freedom of discussion before decision mistaken. and now that a national decision has been taken, you abide by that decision because it's everything that happened before the 24 february was over a different of

a different value after the 24th. but my point is that all of the reasons that russia has given is given many reasons for why it began this war, including nato expansion. don't hold water to that. that was the charge that ukraine was engaged in, genocide, that's what putin said. he said, what's happening in the dumbass, today's genocide, turned out to be a false accusation. did that the case went to the un highest court, the i c, j was thrown out last march. court said there's no evidence to support russia claims. russia ignored the ruling, durham, there's a tragedy to a major population. in 962, the united states was ready to go to war, to nuclear war with russia. soviet union then over show the missiles in cuba,

although you would agree, i think with me that mr. crusher was not planning a nuclear doctor, just the united states. wrong few about positions. he was only looking for a balance over the past year. i think you raised the nuclear issue over the past year. russian officials have kept up a pretty constant drum beat about rushes nuclear weapons. does russia really want to move from deterrence, nuclear deterrence, to nuclear black male? well, i wouldn't call it nuclear black material because you make all the time and she knew, well, good, trying to blackmail in a way. well, this is, this is a much more dangerous game. this is do what we want. well, this isn't, it is what else? yes, yes, but if you look at that from the russian angle, and again, i did not invite you to do emphasize where, where, where the russian. but just look at that run the russian angle to them are war is

being waged against russia and part of the territory that used to be russian, that is populated by russia. people. many of them is that an excuse is not an excuse, but we're not, we're not in the court. we will not be sitting in a war. if it's a totally different ball game, a lot of people would like russia to be sitting in a court. i know, i know, i don't think that they will be rushing the dock, but let them have their dream. do you believe russia is actively considering 1st use of nuclear weapons in this? let me, let me tell you this present. not so long ago. raised the question whether the russia nuclear doctrine should be revised to allow for

a preventive use of nuclear weapons. you then dismissed it in his conversation in the same conversation. that the very fact that he raised the issue i think, suggests that there's something done about that. it's the whole business, the whole war in your brain is existential for russia. and if you want me to quote book again, i wo say that a while back almost 5 years back and a half years back. he shut that. well, we're not interested in a well without rush in the minds of potent and i think a lot of people around him. we are in a zone in which rushes very existence is at stake. so i would dread very

carefully. i don't see why russia, the very existence is, is at stake. i can see why you cranes it if russia leaves the theatre of war and goes home, the war is finished. if you crane stops fighting, ukraine is finished. that they're the ones who are facing existential risk. not you . you started the war. well, you're done. i mean, suppose ukraine, which i think was written in the graham doctrine. suppose ukraine just for the sake of argument that started a war of liberation against russia. attacking crimea, and a part of don bass that was outside of control. and ukraine would have said that the way are not attacking russia. we're just finishing up

the war that actually started back in 2014 over crimea. and now if you just change the optics, said, look at that from moscow from b, moscow position, then where does she russia using the same argument? can we just come back to the present because on the subject of nuclear weapons, are you seriously saying that putin might risk the survival of the entire planet just to get his own way in ukraine? that's pretty close to a definition of madness, isn't it? matt are not suggesting that your expansion of what but basically saying, so i think i don't know well where the. busy

the high command, the commander in chief on those issues. but the country is data trying to win a war adjuster, nuclear stoopa, need to need to think about the potential of nuclear becoming, becoming used in that conflict. one way or another. i would be kathy, they've thought about you thought about it, but to comply that game. conte de 11. once you, once you go to nuclear blackmail, any thought can play the game content. you go from deterrents which is delivered certain amount to many decades of stability and you move into a totally new and very dangerous game. is moscow really think it will take us there? well, i will address the issue to those who supported your cranes,

anti rush and stance. those who gave her their support to your grain in 2014 and after that they were treading on very dangerous territory. was not done, even though at that time no one in the west were seriously considering or giving your cray nato membership. no one was prepared to sit down with russia and basically settled the issue without your grade becoming an age or country without ukraine being a host to nato countries forces in its territory. this was essentially the gist of book is call it ultimate. i'm call it proposal, call it whatever you like in december 2021. and that was something

that people did not wish to discuss. so they made a decision to risk, and now they are risking it. how does this? and dmitri chan in ukraine, in whatever condition it emerges from this war, is never going to forgive you, never going to forgive russia for what it's done, the destruction and the death, and the war crimes that it's committed on its territory. i don't know how it will end that many options. i think up given the stakes that are so much higher for russia, i think that russia will prevail over the rest. the major tendon good to have you on complex out. thank you very much for your time. you're welcome. ah

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ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin. germany is new defense minister hits the ground running just al is off to being sworn in boris. historic is meeting with us defense . secretary lloyd austin. likely top of the agenda. jem battle tanks for ukraine. also coming up i am leaving because with such a privilege, grow comes responsibility. responsibility to know when you are the right person to lead. and also when you are not in a shock announcement, news.