for this, perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece in the collection of the louvre and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks, 2 versions, multiple copies, and a hidden drawing. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful painting that perhaps we just don't understand today? search for answers start to february 10th on d, w. it's almost a year since russia invaded ukraine with no peace talks or cease fire of any kind in prospect. and yet, president putin insist the war is showing a positive trend. my guest this week from moscow is dimitri training for the army officer, the former director of the carnegie moscow center, which was shut down last april, with tens of thousands of its soldiers killed

a little progress on the ground. the kremlin is taking its own survival on the outcome of the war in the mines of and i think a lot of people around him, we are in a go on in which russia is very different. but why did moscow go to war? just as the west of the gun, the dialog putin has been demanding and has moscow now move the world once and for all from nuclear deterrence to nuclear blackmail. oh me pretending welcome to come pick, go. thank you very much. it's a pleasure to be with you. we've had almost a year of war in ukraine, tens of thousands of people, dad, many thousands more injured, mass destruction and misery. what good has any of this brought to russia? there is no good that that's the job. yes. the issue is this could have easily been

prevented. but it wasn't. and that makes it the real tragedy. as russia now bitten off more than it can chew russia and certainly confronting the most difficult issue militarily, politically, socially internationally, something that i think very few people been thought that it would have to confront. but it's coping it's learning. it's improving friends, but it's hard. it's going to be hard for, for quite some time. i'm sure you say it's coping and improving things. what should we read into all the changes of command desperation, kremlin anger at the failure so far? i think that would be very superficial. there's certainly any amount of anger you

can imagine although, but what's happening on the. 1 ground in various places, but i think you should read into that and move to a streamline the chain of command and to prepare for i think more decisive action. a lot of people in russia were complaining and are still complaining. but russia is fighting whether it's hand almost tied behind its back. and that may change where they a new structure. and i think a new strategy that lives behind it. moscow has been attempting to stifle criticism with the threat of up to 15 year jail sentences for discrediting the army. and yet the chechen leader runs on cuz they are often you have gaining pre, goes in front of boot in and had of the wagner mercenary group, they haven't meant that was have that,

is it one law for the elite and one law for everybody else? well, i would put it differently there's, i wouldn't call it one law, but there's one approach to the people in be call it bakery artic camp and another one for the people who openly critical not only of the decisions by the commander in chief of the war of the war effort. russia is a country at war this time, even if it's officially a state of war or martial law has not been declared in russia. but the reality is that russia is a war. so no effort is being sped, i think, to make sure that there's more with all the privations, misery tragedies and, and all that does not lead to any serious in terms of the stabilisation. and people on the other side are certainly working to instill

a measure of enlarged measure of destabilization into the russian social subject. yeah. but if even the patriotic crowd saying things about russia's commanders, like all these boston should be sent bare foot to the front with automatic guns, you tend to wonder how wide spread in moscow is that discontent with the way the war is being handled? well, i think you should appreciate that very few people even a few years ago. imagine that there would be anything like this war for russia to fight. 10 years ago, the russian design, russian defense minister declared, basically that europe has ceased to be a potential theater of war for russia. and now russia is fighting a war. just imagine that where the country, whose population is believed to be officially believe to be in russia,

but at the same people with russia it's, it's just mind boggling that russia has been able to, to fight their way because it has fought over the past 11 months given the relations between ukrainians and russians, given the relations between russia and the west. so you know, i'm not surprised that the at the level of anger and mutual recrimination. and so what surprised that it is, it's still held in check, but there's still very wide latitude that people enjoy people on the right side if you like that, that these people enjoy when they discuss things on the battlefield and discuss things at the head for us it doesn't limit the whole thing is not limited to just

the me to man your mention, but a whole array of a walk our respondents using the freedom, freedom of speech to the hilt, i would say. but what's left of it in tongue and you'll get on the free press. hasn't been a huge well look, i wouldn't want to to engage with you in a discussion about the freedom of the press of the media. i have a very critical of that, whether in russia or outside of russia, i'm not talking about that. but if you want to read, if you were able to read russian and read a telegram channels that are both available to all citizens of russia, you'll be surprised that how much criticism sometimes justified, sometimes unjustified. you will hear you will read actually on those telegram

channels. to be true, trying to has russia underestimated the wes determination to help you crane or is it still clean to the idea that in the end, nato will lose interest and leave ukraine to its own devices? well, i think that the initial concept of the special military operation was very different from what has been and unfolding since may be early march of last year. and had russia been able to achieve its goals? were there a couple of weeks, a couple of months there and i think they would not have been that much that their west would have been able to do to support so this, this really supported k f that it couldn't achieve its goals movement. well, not really, i think that be again, i don't know what the original concept was,

but it looks like it was. it was more of a special operations on a military one. and that i think was be was the cause of what happened after that. but this is water under the bridge. i think that certainly one thing was not anticipated. that the west would steal colette fries and confiscate russia as currency reserved in, in, in western currencies. and that, i think was not appreciated, that the west would be able to do that because that was thought to be, you know, over over a certain line that the westwood would do. and that money was but not hold back before the start of the operation. so that's what. busy what do they expect the

west to do? just complain a little and forget about it to use whatever means where the disposal to show that for the russia was causing him. if you go back. 2 and read what was written in the western newspapers at the end of $21.00 and early $22.00. when there was a lot of discussion of an imminent russian attack against your grade, people didn't go nearly as far as what we're seeing today. people were talking about switching off switch for russia and things like that. it's interesting that maybe the west was sort of lowering russia ukraine by professing to, to intend to do too little to help your grade. i don't know. well, this is a joke. i still, i just don't think that the west at that time,

that intricate the strategies of the russia and your grade. but russia get on the west, the big boost, and in particular, it's given nato. a big boost hasn't gotten what it didn't want out of this up around so far. yes, that's true. that's true in a way, but not in a very big way, because frankly, russians have long thought russians. i mean, those russians make decisions. those russians who are the russians who run the place, those russians have long assigned western europe, or all of europe outside of russia to, to the u. s. camp, mr. book to called the countries battles of the united states. so there were no big surprises, except maybe one that germany was shooting itself in the fort by revising its energy policy and rupture energy links with russia. that's,

that was perhaps the only surprise that people that people match in this. this done . you tell people on february the 24th so long as the war last, i won't say or write a word, but good harm, the russian army, its leadership, or the commander in chief. does that mean you repudiate all the critical views of putin that you express before february 24th? well, i spend by everything written before the 24th and after the 24th. i will go your own record as telling the spiegel correspondent, russia intervention to support the dumbass rebels. was the most serious mistake of put in foreign policy. do you still think that? well, let me, let me tell you this. i'm sure that mister pooty believed that i was not working for russia. when he made that decision there was certainly

a need to do something about about ukraine, about don bass. busy and i think that was coming to a decision, but the, the original concept of the operation, i don't know what it was, but it seemed to me was flawed. and i think this is something that a lot of people today in russia ship. but as i said, this is water under the bridge. this is not the time to criticize the. busy the commander in chief where we faced the situation in which the west they combined west, as you said, is up in arms against stuff and well in the proxy war against the united states and its nature partners and some other countries. and that's the reality in which you operate. i'm wondering, to what extent russia could have avoided this war if it wanted to. in january last

year, you told comments on that a dialogue with the west was underway for the 1st time you said since talks on german reunification, the west has agreed to discuss european security with russia. the united states and nato have been negotiating european security with russia, so the security rest on 2 pillows rather than one. why launch a war then? when the process the russia had wanted and demanded was actually on the way. well, i think the for mr. and for the russian general stuff, the key question was whether the west would entertain and that say decide on the idea of no nato membership for ukraine and no need to

a presence in ukraine. that was chief of been key for put in. but, but in your view, before the war start my, my, your well, in my view and i expressed in various ways, including in a book that was published a couple of years ago that i believe that russia is both soviet foreign policy. 2 things were, were damaging, were good, could, would qualify as, as huge mistakes. one is the russian policy toward ukraine, which essentially was no policy and reliance on money, essentially. and your connections with a few people which again to me the did not amount to a policy. and 2nd, the the preoccupation where nato enlargement, in my view of the best way to,

to responded to nato enlargement would be to, to oppose the united po, to, to, but the united states of the same position of perio that russia would be put due to nato enlargement, but just to be clear, but just to be clear on that, if you, you were saying in january that you didn't believe nato expansion was any great threat to russia. where i said that i would stand by that today. but it, let's say historical way we are worn out in prior to 24 february. well they're not at war. and a lot of things could have been done differently, including, and i think primarily by the west which day, why not. and again, my point was goes right in which the freedom of discussion before

decision mistaken. and now that a national decision has been taken. your abide by that decision because it's everything that happened before 24 february was over, over of a different different value after the 24th. but my point is that all the reasons that russia has given is given many reasons for why it began this war, including nato expansion. don't hold water through that. that was the charge. the ukraine was engaged in genocide. that's what putin said. he said, what's happening in the dumbass, today's genocide, turned out to be a false accusation, didn't the case went to the un highest court? the i c, j was thrown out last month. the court said it had been no evidence to support russia's claims. russia ignored the ruling bears

a tragedy to a major population. in 962, the united states was ready to go to war, to nuclear war with russia. soviet union then over show the missiles in cuba, although you would agree, i think with me that mr. crusher was not planning a nuclear doctor, just the united states. wrong is pure about positions. he was only looking for a balance over the past year. since you raised the nuclear issue over the past year, russian officials have kept up a pretty constant drum beat about russia, nuclear weapons. does russia really want to move from deterrence, nuclear deterrence, to nuclear black male? well, i wouldn't call it nuclear blackmail because you make all the time and she knew what the timeframe is, black male in a way. well, this is, this is

a much more dangerous game. this is do what we want. well, this isn't it, do what else? yes, yes. but if you look at that from the russian angle, and again, i do not invite you to do emphasize where, where, where the russian. but just look at that run the russian angle to them are war is being waged against russia and part of the territory that used to be russian. that is, love you later by russia people, many of them is not an excuse is not an excuse, but we're not, we're not in the court. we will not be sitting in a war if it's a totally different ball game. a lot of people would like russia to be sitting in a court. i know, i know, i don't think that they will see russia, the doc, but let them have their dream. do you believe russia is actively considering 1st use of nuclear weapons in this?

let me, let me tell you this president not so long ago, raised the question whether the russian nuclear doctrine should be revised to allow for a preventive use of nuclear weapons. he then dismissed it in his conversation in the same conversation. but the very fact that he raised the issue, i think, suggests that there's something done about that. it's the whole business, the whole war in your brain is existential for russia. and if you want me to quote book again, i will say that a while back almost 5 years back, one half years back. he shut that. well, we're not interested in

a well without rush and in the minds of potent and i think a lot of people around him, we are in a zone in which rushes very existence is at stake. so i would dread very carefully. i don't see why russia's very existence is, is at stake. i can see why you cranes it if russia leaves the theatre of war and goes home, the war is finished. if ukraine stops fighting, ukraine is finished. that they're the ones who are facing existential risk. not you . you started the war. well, you know what? i mean, suppose ukraine, which i think was written and the graham doctrine. suppose you're gray. just for the sake of argument that started

a war of liberation against russia, attacking crimea. and the bulk of don bass that was outside of control. and ukraine would have said that we are not attacking russia. we're just finishing up the war that actually started back in 2014 over crimea. and now if you just changed the optics, said, look at that from the moscow from b, moscow position. then here, where does she russia using the same argument? can we just come back to the present because on the subject of nuclear weapons, are you seriously saying that putin might risk the survival of the entire planet just to get his own way in ukraine?

that's pretty close to a definition of madness, isn't it? matt are not suggesting that your expansion of what was basically saying so i think i don't know well where the. busy the high command, the commander in chief on those issues. but the countries data trying to win a war against a nuclear supa need to need to think about the potential of nuclear becoming, becoming used in that conflict. one way or another. i would be kathy, they've thought about you thought about it, but to comply that game count they. when, when, once you, once you go to nuclear blackmail, any thug can play the game content. you go from deterrents which is delivered

certain amount to many decades of stability and you move into a totally new and very dangerous game. is moscow really think it will take us there? well, i will address the issue to those who supported your grey and anti russian stance. those who gave her their support to ukraine in 2014 and after that they were treading along very dangerous territory was not done. even though at that time no one in the west were seriously considering or giving your cray nato membership. no one was prepared to sit down with russia and basically shuttle the issue without your grade, becoming an aide to country without ukraine being

a host to enable countries forces in its territory. this was essentially the gist of book news. i call it ultimate, i'm call it proposal, collect whatever you like in december, not 2021. and that was something that people did not wish to discuss. so they made a decision to risk, and now they are risking it. how does this? and dmitri chad in ukraine, in whatever condition it emerges from this war, is never going to forgive. you, never going to forgive russia for what it's done, the destruction and the death, and the war crimes that it's committed on its territory. i don't know how it will end many options. i think that given the stakes that are so much higher for russia. i think that russia, barbara dale over the rest,

the major tenant good to have you on complex. thank you very much for your time. you're welcome ah ah, with

who to the point to the strong opinion, clear positions, international perspectives. a shake of, of military brass points to read in russia's war effort, mounting failures, and a new talk commander in ukraine at hinted at a possible new, expensive edition of to the point kremlin power struggle went in fighting means for

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ah ah . ah . this is dw news life from building defense ministers from around the world. we'll meet at the usa base in ramstein, germany today, and the agenda will be dominated by one thing. tax. your client says that needs main battle tanks, like germany's leopard, to, to deal with a feed new russian offensive. some allies are.