serious masterpiece, ah, this perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece in the collection of the louvre and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks, 2 versions, multiple copies, and a hidden drawing. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful painting that perhaps we just don't understand? the search for answers store to february 10th on d. w. belittles has supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in the literature cited? there is a consensus that we don't support this war. that bill of our mission not participate

and also fails. it also understands that if he sent out the restrict the crate, they can defect. they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest debate. franak we are ciocca is chief political advisor to berlin, ocean opposition leader for atlanta. the come of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella luce, but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or shank goes regime for charco. welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend you had russian defense minister saturday. sure. ago in bellows meeting his opposite number and just few days before that you had unnamed, the russian generals arriving in minsk as well for various meetings, is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella luce's help. the visits the fresh and general officers are usual thing since the question that came

to power. but when were, has started, all the deals that were assigned became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much over and to remain in the hands of her location. and so there were some people we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah, those sector of military complex under control of russia. a listen to music is also important because it happened just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which close very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by below some officials, as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian miss. i was including hypersonic

missiles and 5 to just to just make 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have is russia planning large scale ad assaults and you create an infrastructure from bella ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill. it was very direct, so it needs to read the court to month. there were in those strikes from from betters, but to the same time i'm more than 10000 russian soldiers to ride to balance and they're a deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops, we see vehicles. we see some banks, we see some divisions. so for this and systems arriving to bellows, it doesn't seem they're brilliant at docking a group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bring the army in order to control the situation in billers,

in order to fix that russian occupation of visitors. we really believe that russia can use bella was as a consolation prize, in case if you will lose the war in ukraine or you, what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine. it's still not next to 3 months. right now russia doesn't have a capacitor now or more vehicles from started to re baler army so will not be able to conduct the check. the ration if the strong backup, primarily technical back up from russia also been shown soldiers. they don't have morale that they don't see korean to enemy in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this for the bill of our mission not participate also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips the crane,

they can the fact that they can turn arms against him. there will be split up really. there will be no way for protest, and he's really afraid of sending mail it central still to ukraine because his bill is going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially. losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a start and by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle. your confidence that i think they're playing the role. it's the performance a question to explain the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that which will not come to murder him. but also for a question,

which in this is very, very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that her own ocean is what pressure asian bush and guess, i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and lucas. and there are con the leash and puts in this trying to short them this leash so much as possible. do not allow luca shenker to not leave him a space at toll. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime. ventilate resume, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops to ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits it's not experienced. i mean, i was in the army, i was serving the minister on the border with decree. it was 10 years ago,

but they know what, what, what is it? what question came to nest in cage would be in the secret services that, that they have to protect himself up can never invest in better some army. when belittle shantrel, the receipt smugglers ation coals, there will be a huge protest which resistance, because society doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the legion that push him if i will send my troops, then the all on the 20 and let you know, will attack me. because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as the reason him, in order to last hand out the sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they create their pressure, they create the pressure on the ukraine. austin pressure that this might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops to destruct and be courses

of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shall go. the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton? or would he rather be with the west, for instance, he will be with the weekend because when this mentally close to him, look on page the soviet man, or he is very western democracy. something that goes against his principles against his for nature. are he chose russia and fortune instead of dilution? people in 2020 could agree on dialogue with deliberation professors 2 years ago, but instead he called for putting help to suppress this protest. and right now was which should the tipping point of this pro ration using an adult location. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry, in an interview that no one was closer to president as

a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president brought in between president putin and the west to curtail his dependence on russia. what questions he just want to stay relevant to be important. even though this like alpha alpha man, he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 question to host with them. because she wants to be the big player. it wants to be in the 1st leak and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the horse off himself. but usually just the blossom he, he's a very poor, old, weak,

insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me my k, bella was a foreign minister, a close confident of alexander, lucre shinkel. did russia have anything to do with my case death? postal. everything is possible, right now we come to school day, new versions. so we still didn't see the publication of that. there document about the death of my kid with a ominous. it's very strange, it's one week past. but still, there is no official information also that they have statement from lucas and about the death of my case here many years after the fact was rebuilt, it means there is something behind it. i wish the bushel officials are very reckoned. they feel that they can be the next and they think the staff could be could be just just deaf, but also can be part of the bigger events,

bigger dynamic. we was still counting, you talked to for russian troops. and bella was there to court control. the situation is bella luce, a hostage of russia. billers has taken hostage of russia and putting together these 2 criminals. they just use military tory, in order to attack ukraine to revive empire, and not just a little. some people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 square forced to flee the country in 2020 while when crackdown took place against bill. send them a great the course is. it was a preparation, rational war against the graeme. and you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader maria cal listening over ended up in intensive care for she was gone with the hospital from her prison. so she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrels. would you say

her faith is a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows. a muddy a's, a beak inspiration for many belittle sins, especially bruce and women. she became a symbol of resistance. she was selenium this massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shot. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow. but also like we have to investigate. were patterns for her because the just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was put in the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication, they could be beaten there. and something,

something happened wrong to her. perhaps there was an order from lucas shenker personally to punish her. and doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's no problems to change the form of resistance. there are many parties and groups. they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back to sabotage on the railway scene, march and april this year. but there are thousands of people. members of the cyber partners are groups. they paralyze and state infrastructure and few weeks ago they hacked to the russian oversight committee at oscar absorb league, the data to journalist, and there are many activists put together, shall ukrainians, flexible, where the country will show. some of these will be in the campaign, not all over the country, but in big city primarily when the worker so the big factor is refused to do their

job. for example, let's take that. let's take that face value but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas and go it is indeed and due to receive right now that depression some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained. and people not just the same, their torture, they are partially beaten, more active is dying prism, and this is shock a lot. and we call one international community to react recall and the un i to take urgent measures. let's talk about a number. the better should humanize group the ash claims, as many as 5000 people are in the prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nation stays under the thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you therefore it is who is left in the

country to carry out an opposition against alexander lucas shall go. bill of ran 1000000 people buck. country sold the protests to more than 1000000.5 participants. so even if let's say a few $100000.00 in the countries to become a 1000000 to resist. also, there is a deep disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front line and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside a better was as an opposition. how effective are you? how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison?

we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the ground to with local communities. we meet every blockers journalist who scrapping this printed or some easy, li, flat, put in their main mailboxes and our supplies channels leader of who, who, who, and elections. he created the conditional cabinet, which is like a government in exile and which we know we know all that. you know, all that mr. cover then how does that helping activists inside bella roof? you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside investors? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to come to rational location as propaganda. readily inspire

be a little chance to apply. we try to keep the morale high to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for be a little shout scores, field 5 in the country. is it not a fan of your opposition movement that after 2020, at that time and have a massive st protest and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of position movement? not yet, as we see there, correct on in 2020 was to position for the war. lucian would answer life without him. which is who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020 and right now the question k, spain is that back to push him not to fail. and yet she became

much more complex. now we are part of the bigger regional job political crisis. now we are fight more just for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for the very existence of bella state, hold. and in order to get the letters free and in the band them, we need the victory of the great set law to kind of sky your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election than particularly the protest, the mouse st. protest that happened after that, and she presents herself as the leader of the bell. russian opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections but didn't take her office because of concussion can put an issue the leader of the benediction of position. i think she's a durability nation because look a sham praise and opposition. it was more than 70 percent of roles typical or the

present for she does not lead a united benediction opposition. she lives in the united democratic forces. exactly . she united all the major groups, traditional political parties and the new groups that appear in 2020. and of course there are different. they do all different use among different politicians. but she's absolutely are we unify and future to all of the will. she delivers. trim democrats, let's see how unifying that is because an opinion followed by telegram baseball stuff. not rodney operators among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the color scheme regiment of bella lucian volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than mrs. atlanta. to kind of sky, clearly she's not a leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest. they're just the

mom activists of this specific group. i'm calling oscar regimented just a group of metre able into years. i can the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and fighters and the, let's forget the trauma to most participated in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys, polls or international to prove that she won elections. she received 2 or 3000000 vote. so the car industry regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters in ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they, are they disorder from huge respect from we school support the recently what you say they are popular they are not popular as politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrifice me a life a notice to,

to save ukraine because they understand that when you cradle with the wind as well, so they are not see another part of the opposition than now they are fighters with some of device and petitions, and fighters and military volunteers. schools are in the cranium. army, of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school where seem by many ukrainians as aggressions. i'm calling those key regimen. they prove that not old. there are like lucas and the regime and people are 2 different things. right? let's talk about minute, 2nd, sky. you keep saying in this interview that the national leader of bella rules and she has, keeps calling us out the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that? almost from every country she comes. she smirks on the presidential level in the parliament. she sold this address. madam president,

today justin was there is no. there is no, but there is not official recognition of her as the leader of the rules are, there is the fact recognition. there is the level of vertical which are defined as far as the kind of state. there is no years from this years. we don't to, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just the game, isn't it? because alexander location goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas, and go count as leader of bellows and not music taken us less. sure, that's true. and this is, this is the problem for us because loose nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly. and they vote for very all, from the support of proposals cushion called russian. the in the show. this is why

we are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we are rather itself let than america. we have some, some relation there will be a reached out to stage as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or horses. so the european union, one percent is not recognized for the leader. and now we are asking the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the you can, will she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location for space and power. there will be comes from threat to

ukraine, like it happened in february, february, this year. lucretia, the problem is that they will not be attacked from bella toria. suddenly, this attack happened and rush, thanks a most the reached key from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with billing people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship. again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and go to work to connect with some resist him. ration of the pine forces situation, some better, some grain are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, she hasn't yet been able to meet president landscape. when is that going to happen? yes, she didn't met her officially on the informally until i'm a public events. it will happen when there will be will cranium. but she's

very good relationship with the whole there either you bring them parliament. we have a good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but we understand by ukrainians, dumped me for they don't want to provoke in question. is it also because they do not trust her? you know, i think because there was a clear crime of lucas shown here for me to come oscar location for can escalate the conflict against a crane or even introduced troops. so for ukrainians, for now the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognize had a national leader of and i was efficiently i think if her, if, if luka introduced her troops notice troops to, to you, craig, this process will be speeded up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her, but right now they are very cautious. they don't want to get to play with fire.

it's been a pleasure talking to you. we have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining us today. for i knock via taka ah ah, ah, with

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