john den darn searches for the truth again. this time the exile to turkish journalist meets svetlana tihano, sky exiled leader of the opposition and bella rues. i mean, of course i am tired and tired, physically untied. morally, it's too much on my shoulders, but i have to hold dissuade because i'm responsible for the future fall country for the people who are behind the boss. gardens of truth starts february 18th on d. w. ah, belittles, has supported russia since the start of the war in ukraine. it's provided weapons, military bases, and logistical support. but is that support set to escalate into something more active in bella recited. there is a consensus that are, we don't support this war. that bill of our mission not participate. bush and also

fails. it also understands that if he sent out those troops, the ukraine, they can defect, they can turn arms against him. that's from my guest to day franak via ciocca is chief political advisor, to bela lucian opposition, leader, threat lana. the kind of sky up. she claims to be the national leader of bella cruz . but how legitimate is her claim? and how successful has her opposition been to alexander luke or franco's regime? product near charco. welcome to conflict on. oh, mister whittaker, over the weekend you had russian defense minister, saturday showing go in bellows, meeting his opposite number, and just few days before that you had unnamed russian general, deriving in minsk as well for various meetings. is russia planning an escalation of the war in ukraine with bella? luce has help the visits of russian generals an officer, sorry, usual thing since the question that came to power. but when we're has started,

all the deals that are signed became secret. and we don't really know how much independence, how much over and to remain in the hands of a people we believe that every visit they decide on given was here in utah. miller's, a sector of military conflicts under control of russia. a nuisance visit is also important because it happened just of this, of mr. mckee, the foreign minister, which was very close to lucas and, and it was perceived by below to some officials, as a reminder, who is in charge. so go to some officials or some officers are afraid of moscow. i do want to talk about the death of foreign mr. mckay, but 1st i'd like to talk about what these written by russian generals mean. you have, for instance, described as a very dangerous development reports of russian besides including hypersonic

missiles and 5 to just such as mig 30 ones being stationed in bellows. what is the information you have? is russia planning large scale ad assaults and you create an infrastructure from bella? ros. last me, silas shrugged as we have business was on november 6th from bill was 33. so if need to read the court to month, there were in those strikes from from betters. but to the same time i more than 10000, the russian soldiers arrived to balance and they're a deployed in different parts of our country. they're passing military training along with our troops. we see vehicles, we see some banks, we see some divisions. so for this and systems arriving to billers, it doesn't seem they are brilliant at talking a group of army on builder editor. it seems they are bringing the army in order to control the situation in billers,

in order to fix that russian occupation of visitors. we really believe that russia can use bella was as a consolation prize in case if you will lose the war in ukraine. are you, what is the berlin ocean troops might be thrown into the fight and ukraine. it's still not next to 3 months. right now russia doesn't have a capacitor now or newer vehicles from dollars predatory army. so we'll be able to conduct the check the ration if the strong backup, primarily technical back up from russia also been shown soldiers, they don't have morale that they don't see korean to enemy in society. there is a consensus that we don't support this war. the chart mission not participate also sales. it also understands that if he sent out the re strips, the crane,

they can the fact that they can turn arms against him. there will be split up really. there will be no way for protest, and he's really afraid of sending mail central still to ukraine because his bow it going to cost him the power. so you're confident that with russia is back to the wall in ukraine, essentially. losing the fight, falling behind on the battlefield as a start and by the needle. second general says that president putin is not pressured. i pressuring, alexander lucas shank to commit his troops into battle, your confidence that i think they are playing the role. it's that performance a question to explain the independent leader who supports russia and who wants to stay exclusive, alive or pushing. because this is the only way to stay in power to have guarantees that we can, that will not come to murder him. but also for a question which in this is very,

very important right now in order to control the internal domestic situation. to say that term, which is what pressure asian question guess i think let's, let's imagine that this is the leash and location. it is. there are con the leash and puts in this trying to shorten this leash so much as possible. do not allow luca shenker to not leave him a space at toll. this is the goal of putting to create that up at the regime. ventilate resume, which will be doing 100 percent of everything the capital moscow will want from him . so you had said in november that a 14 was not interested in sending bell at ocean troops through ukraine. you stand by that? yes, yes, i think it will create more problems than the benefits it's not experienced. i mean, i was in the army, i was serving the minister on the border with decree. it was 10 years ago,

but they know what, what, what is it? what question came to nest in cage would be the in the secret services that, that they have to protect himself up can never invest in better some army. when belittle shantel, the received mobile is ation coals. there will be a huge protest which resistance because society doesn't support this war at all. and the look a shame, probably bolt, which in about this also push and use the lay jim that push him if i will send my troops, then the all on the 20 and let you know, will attack me because you see they are preparing, they escalate, they deploy more troops on the border. so he use this as than the reason him in order to last hand out the sam tropes. so they play this performance. everyone is happy, they create their pressure. they create the pressure on the ukraine constant pressure that this might happen. and i think that even the threat of sending our troops into

the shock and be courses of the cranium. help us understand. alexander lucas shall go the current leader of bellows. would he rather be on the side of president fulton, or would he rather be with the west, for instance? he will be with the weekend because when his mentally close to him location pays the soviet man. or if he is very western democracy, something that goes against his principles against his her nature, he chose russia and which in, instead of dilution people in 2020 could agree on dian with the protest. there's 2 years ago. but instead, he called for pigeons helped to suppress this protest. and right now we wish the tipping point of this pro ration used in the head of the machine. now in october, alexander location court told b. b, nbc, i'm sorry, in an interview that no one was closer to president as

a signal to the west that he was ready to mediate with president 14, between president putin and the west. to curtail his dependence on russia. location to just want to stay relevant to be important isn't all this like alpha alpha man. he wants to be the source neighbor where this is why he was so happy when the 1st means negotiations took place in 2014 and a host of them wants to be the big player. it wants to be in the 1st sleek and also all the statements about his closure. closeness to, to put him about nuclear weapons in dealers in order to raise the price to raise the horse off himself. but usually just the blossom, he, he's very poor, old, weak,

insecure man. you talked about the death of letting me mackay bella, was a foreign minister, a close, confident of alexander lucre shank oak. did russia have anything to do with my case death? possible. everything is possible right now. we come to the full day, knew over the versions. we still didn't see the obligation of the document about the decimal, my kid with the ominous restrictions from the past. but still there is no official information. also there they statement from about the death of my peers many years after the fact was revealed, it means there is something behind it. i wish you the better. some officials are very reverend they. they feel that they can be the next and they think this bass is, could be, could be just just death. but also it can be part of the bigger events a bigger than then we will still country you talked of russian troops in ballard,

was there to court control. the situation is bella bruce, a hostage of russia. biller was taken hostage with russia and put him together lease to criminals. they just use better territory in order to, to attack ukraine to revise the buyer and not just dollars, but the people are taken hostage. let's not forget that there are thousands of people in jail and it's a 1000 where forced to leave the country in 2021. when chris down took place against the little send them great courses. it was a preparation for rational war against the cream. you talked about the pro democracy movement. let's talk about that last week. opposition leader. mario less nickel that ended up in intensive care for. she was transferred to hospital from her prison cell. she was perhaps one of the last major opposition figures left inside barrows. would you say her fate is

a big blow to the opposition movement inside bellows? muddy a's. a beacon spiration for many belittle sins, especially bruce and women. she became a symbol of resistance. she was selenium this massive, huge for alice in august and september of 2020. and right now when we found out he's and maintenance of care unit, it was the big truck total loss. but was it a big blow? of course it was a big shock. was it a big blow for the opposition movement? oh, yes it was. it was, it was a blow. it was a blow, but also really have to investigate. were patterns for her? because the just before i ended up ended up in the hospital, she was put in the punishment. so this is the cage be style torture cells. people are without fresh air. people are without communication, they could be beaten there. and something, something happened wrong to her,

perhaps there was an order from lucas shanker personally to punish her. doesn't oldish show that the opposition movement inside bellows has been silenced. no, it's no problems to change the form of resistance. there are many parties and groups . they work in every region of the country. most of them participated in stop in the russian train. they come back to sabotage on the railway scene, march and april. this year. there are thousands of people. members of the cyber partners are groups. they paralyze and state infrastructure and few weeks ago they hacked to the russian oversight, committee law school, absorb league, the data to journalist, and there are many activists put together, shall or ukrainians, like some of the country will show. some of these will be in the campaign, not all over the country, but in big cities primarily when the worker, so the big factor is refused to do their job. for example,

let's take that. let's take that face value but doesn't, hasn't that invited a greater correct down against them from alexander lucas and go it is indeed and due to the receipt right now that impressions some bigger than in 2020, every day from 10 to 20 people are being detained and people not just the same, their torture, they are partially beaten, more active is dying prism and this shock a lot. and we call one international community to react recall and the un i to take urgent measures. let's talk about a number. the better should humanize group the ash claims, as many as 5000 people are in the prison due to political reasons. they are not classified officially as political prisoners, but they are in prison because of their political activism. the united nation stays under the thousands of ballot oceans are leaving the country and going to neighboring countries. my question to you, therefore it is who is left in the country to carry out an opposition against

alexander lucas shall go. bill, it says ran 1000000 people or country sold the protests to more than 1000000.5 participants. so even if let's say a few 100000 bill since the contra still become a 1000000 to resist also there is a big disappointment. be willing to change the situation and to prevent that from participating in this war. so i think people who participate in the resistance right now, they did not participate in the 2020 their new people who reacted on the fact of the war and they resist. right. now they're on the front lines and they go out and they protest, despite all the better you are based outside the videos as an opposition. how effective are you? how many people, for instance, has your movement been able to release from prison?

oh, we are in daily patch with belittle sham groups are on the wrong to with local communities . we will meet with blockers. little journalists, who described in the sprint or some easy leaf flat, put in their main mailboxes or spanish channels. the leader of the little who, who, who on elections, she created the matrix conditional cabinet, which is like government in exile. and which we know, we know all, you know, all that mr. via but then how does that helping activists inside bella roof. you admitted earlier that they keep getting thrown into prison and that cracked on has only increased in 2020. so how is your work outside helping them inside in bellows? so we pass assistance. we tried to pass equipment where possible we conduct information campaigns to come to ration and location us propaganda. i don't think

something's far be a little chance to apply. we try to keep the morale high to build connection between different groups, different parties and groups within the country. and we can log before more international support for be a little shown scores, field 5 in the country. is it not a failure of your opposition movement that after 2020, at that time and a massive st protest? and it seemed that the game was up for alexander, lucre shinkel. he has been able to hold on and continues to govern bellows. is that not a failure of position movement? not yet as we see there. correct on in 2020 was depreciation for the war location for building for life without him. it's the weekend who provided him with money with soldiers, with the resources back in 2020 and right now the question, k, spain is that back to approach?

and it's not the fail on the situation. became much more complex. now we are part of the bigger regional jo political crisis. now we are fight more just for democracy for democratic elections. but we are fighting for very existence of states hauled. and in order to get the letters free and in the band them, we need the terry of the great set land to kind of sky your boss to and to whom you provide political advice, emerged from the 2020 election and particularly the protest, the mouse st. protest that happened after that she presents herself as the leader of the bella lucian, opposition is she i think she's a national leader ability president elect one elections but didn't take her office because a question can put an issue, the leader of the validation of position. i think she's a durability nation because lucas and praise and opposition. it was more than 70

percent of roles typical or the present for she does not lead a united benediction opposition. she lives in the united democratic forces. exactly. she united all the major groups, traditional political parties, and the new groups that appear in 2020. and of course there are different. they do all the different use among different politicians. but she's absolutely are we unify and future to all of the will. she delivers credible credit. let's see how unifying that is because an opinion followed by telegram based bolster. not rodney operators among opposition minded bella. lucian's found that the color scheme regiment of bella lucian volunteers fighting in ukraine was 5 times more popular among bell at oceans than mrs. atlanta to kind of sky. clearly, she's not a leader of a united opposition issue. this is the oldest,

they're just the mom activists of this specific group. i'm calling oscar regimented just a group of meet the people in tears. i'm in the ukraine. so listen, compare, you know, political leadership and, and fighters and the, let's forget the trauma to most participated in elections in one election, multiple of servers, surveys, polls or international to prove that she won elections. she received 2 or 3000000 the vote. so the calling to see regiment is irrelevant as an opposition group. in oscar regiment is the part of the democratic and independence movement. they are fighters in the ukraine. they are fighting for liberation of ukraine and they, are they disorder from huge respects from we all support the recently what you say they are popular they are not popular as politicians, therefore, are soldiers because they sacrifice me a life a notice to,

to save ukraine because they understand that when you cradle with the wind as well, so they are not seeing the part of the opposition then. now they're either sonoma, the summer divide, and politicians, and fighters and military volunteers who are integrating in the army. of course they are, they are playing very important role. and 1st of all, they see they preserve the group name of the school where seem by many ukrainians as as aggressions. i'm calling those key regimen. they prove that, not all delusions are like lucas and the regime, and people are 2 different things. right. let's talk about minutes. you know, skype, you keep saying in this, in through the tree, the national leader of bella rules and she herself, keeps calling us of the national leader of bellows. but who accept for lithuania, agrees to call her that almost every country she comes. she smirks on the presidential level in the parliament. she sold this address. madam president,

to be just and was, there is no, there is no, but there is no official recognition of her as the leader of bellows. or there is the fact a recognition. there is the level of protocol which are defined as far as the kind of state. there is no years from this years. we don't, we didn't go into this game or legal recognition, but it's more than just a game, isn't it? because alexander nutrition goes, regime continues to have diplomatic relations with a lot of countries, particularly those in asia and africa. for instance, there, alexander lucas shan't go counts as leader of bellows and not music and sky. let's show this rule and this is, this is the problem for us because loose nation, them, they come to the united nations general assembly and they vote for very all from the support of proposals cushion called russian. the in the show. this is why we

are trying to reach out the countries outside of the european union. we are rather itself let than america. we have some, some relation there will be a reached out to stage as well, but the local worker to be done. but the most important in terms of the economy in terms of trade and political relationship or horses. so the european union, one percent is not recognized for the leader. and now we are asking medical in the recommendation team as them as the work criminal. now mr. scott is also sought to find the common cause with ukrainians. we began this into talking about the ukraine war. let's talk about the you can, will she have fed and i caught that cannot be a free bellows without a free ukraine. does ukraine see it in the same way as well? yes, i think the ukraine is, but a little bit little bit different. they see dealers as the guarantee of security of safety because of location space and power there will be comes from threat to

ukraine. like it's happened in february, february, this year, lucretia and the problem is that they will load the attack from billers territory, and suddenly this attack happened and russian things, some most the reached kia from, from relatives, ukraine. understand the importance of having a good relationship with billing people. we have 1000 kilometers, common bull order. and right now we are trying to build this relationship. again. we're trying to coordinate our activities and to, to work, to connect with some, resist him, a ration of the pine forces situation and better. some grain are different, but we find the same enemy. one final question, sherman chicken hasn't yet been able to meet presidency landscape when is that going to happen? yes, she met her officially on the informally a dilemma for public events. it will happen. that will be will cranium. but

she's very good relationship with the whole now the ukrainian parliament, we had good relationship with the minister of foreign affairs, but you understand why ukrainians dumped me for they don't want to provoke in question. is it also because they do not trust her? you know, i think because there was a clear sign of lucas shared key for me to come oscar locations or can escalate the conflict against the crane or even introduced troops. so for ukrainians, for now the most important to minimize the risks when the ukraine recognize, had a national leader of and i was officially i think it her if, if luca introduces her troops, miller's troops to craig, this process will be speeded up. and then ukraine can recognize most can meet her, but right now they're very cautious. they don't want to try to play with fire. it's been a pleasure talking to you will have to leave it there. thank you so much for joining

us today for knock via talk with ah, ah, with

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ah ah ah, this is dw news live from berlin, russia. a taxi crane as the west promises more military support ukrainians. take a bomb shelter, take to bomb shelters. amid a barrage of missile and drone attacks strikes come a day after germany and the u. s. pledge.