well, nor do davinci, mysterious masterpiece for this, perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece and the collection of the louvre. and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks, 2 versions, multiple copies, and a hidden drawing. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful baby that perhaps we just don't understand? the switch for answers store to february 10th on d. w is germany's finally ready to make good on the turning point declared nearly a year ago by chancellor sholtes breaking with a long standing taboo. he has now authorized the delivery of german tags to a conflict zone. ukraine will receive leopard to battle tanks. not only directly

from germany, but also with berlin's approval from other european countries. and the u. s. is finalizing plans to send its own abrams battle tank. germany hesitated long before taking this historic step, sparking tensions not only with allies but within the governing coalition. and there's still a long way to go before europe's economic giant wields real military strength. so we're asking arming ukraine is germany, a leader or a laggard hello, and welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure degree to our guests. your aglow is foreign editor at the german weekly site cow lina. vigour is a member of the board of the co taura libra on the foundation, which publishes one holdings leading weeklies. and she's

a research associate at the fire. when you've asked to ted here in berlin and go staff and i feel is senior political fellow and military expert at the berlin office of the european council on foreign relations. and he joined us as we see virtually welcome to all of you. and let me start, if i may with you, go stuff and ukraine has been pleading for battle tanks with rising urgency. is this decision, a game changer for ukraine? will it make a real difference in the conflict? well, i don't like the word game changer because it suggests that individual weapon systems and uncertain technological a command such as can bring to change in a war alone, which they do. it always depends on the numbers on the employment, on that kind of cleverness or do you training on forces to bring certain capabilities to back bought. it is certainly good news of the problem with ukraine

struggling with all the tags that they currently have. is that an issue for these tangs was increasingly difficult to find a set of predictions within the army depending on the intensity or for, for the intensity of, for, for as probably going to rise with age. expect russians bring offensive and they will run dry on tank ammunition. now, leopard choose abrams, they go with nature sound the tank ammunition. so it's a completely different line of supply one that we actually can control. so from this side, of course, it's very good news. the rest will depend on the time shuttle that will be delivered on the numbers that become scratched together. and we'll see you or do you think the decision is a game changer for germany itself? schoultz has repeatedly been criticized. we're doing too little too late. do you think that's over now? i, i tend to think so a lot of pressure was necessary to bring him to this step to, to go there,

to go, to take this step. but this is a long term commitment, and it's a huge commitment because germany will now have the task to to bring together this european colored coalition of leopard users to bring these tanks to ukraine to supply them with with everything they need to, to train the soldiers so it's a whole package, it's not just this one system and it opens the door to further assistance to ukraine. so i think it's a, it's a huge step. colina, you mentioned pressure. and in fact, poland has been amongst germany's most vocal critics, both eastern european countries and the baltic republics pushing very, very hard for berlin to authorize. the delivery of these battle tanks is worse are

satisfied now, or do you think that chancellor schultz is caution has damaged relations? the question is whether we are satisfied now or for now in a couple of weeks or in a couple of months, we'll probably have a very similar discussion about other kinds of weapons. and then probably the same situation will repeat because it's actually not a game changer for germany is at one part of a series of very painful game changers here in germany. namely the collective emotions. basically of this society, which is sim, which is visible in the polls, are against the supporting ukraine with, with ever more weapons. and i do believe that what mister mister schultz is doing is he's trying to communicate with those who are actually afraid doesn't want to neglect them. but obviously, because of he's,

let's say limited communication being outside germany. it's very difficult to understand that. and many partners do not understand it and more so, but also the baltic states also other countries who are neighbors of russia are in the same club of those who are not satisfied fully and who hardly understand pulling seems to feel an immense affinity for ukraine. where does that come from? do you think there's enough understanding of that here in germany? i think that it came as a surprise. well, 1st thing that came as a surprise was that the populace government, who is capable of trumping on the constitution in poland, suddenly started to behave very rationally in the, in the international politics and suddenly, which was also very, very relevant. suddenly it turned out that east europe, eastern europe, has some kind of an out of an experience which is relevant. it doesn't mean that

the eastern europe is infallible. of course we make mistakes and very often our definition of the situation are also wrong. or in this particular situation that this, that they are the experience of the 300 years of russian imperialism in poland. in estonia, in law firm and other countries that their neighbors of russia is very relevant. and, and here from this perspective, we might be sharing something important and we'll come back to that a little bit later. but let me ask you a good stuff to talk about how this decision might be seen in moscow. because one reason for the hesitancy here in berlin and also apparently in washington, is because is concerned that delivering battle tanks could provoke vladimir putin to escalate. do you think that that concern is justified? oh, i don't think it's justified of letting me put in, has escalated this war. he started it in the 1st place than he escalated it again

by annexing ukrainian territories annexing them even. you know, terry's he doesn't even control og, than he declared mobilization in order to force people to join the war and not having to recruit them as well. and terry's and we didn't answer that at that escalation. we didn't kind of say, well, if you do that we can just step off military supplies for you train because you're not gonna win yourself out of this by, by increasing your commitment. ah, that then was a mistake. and we made no good on it. ah, the russians are planning a spring offensive. there still are mobilized forces that have joined to fight in ukraine and they will over the coming months. but that has been plant, we could have done nothing and the ukrainians would have had more difficulty fighting that off and or we could do something and, and it will be easier for you koreans. but don't think that, let me put in changes is game and war plans just because there's this type or that

type of vehicle coming in. let us take a closer look at where germany stands. shortly after russia invaded ukraine, chancellor schultz delivered a speech lauded by many observers as a sign that berlin was finally ready to lead. but the follow up has been equivocal until now. the fields funds have you every 24th 2022 marks a turning point in the history of our continental clinton. the chancellor promised a special fund of a $100000000000.00 euros for the bundeswehr. he also assured that germany would invest more than 2 percent of its g d, p, and defense in the future. but almost one year after the turning point, the results, amiga of the 100000000000 just 110th has been spent so far. and the 2 percent target is a long way off hesitation. i'm to the ring even when it comes to personnel. the

chancellor has been criticized for holding on to his controversial former defense minister will fall too long. and when it comes to military support for ukraine, criticism is pouring in from germany and abroad. critic say germany is supplying too few weapons, all the wrong ones and too slowly. but all i shaw, it's repeatedly emphasizes that germany does not want to go it alone. after a long period of hesitation, germany has now given the go ahead for the leopard main battle tank, the pressure was too strong. is the proclaim turning point happening now. let me put that question the rights to your in the discussion before chance. the shorts finally reached this decision, one renowned germany watcher, namely timothy guard nash. the british historian said that the turning board speech

nearly a year ago represented the death of the old thinking. but that the a new with thinking hadn't yet been born. do you think it has now? no, we're just, slowly, slowly getting there. i think. and this recent um, decision that we're talking about is, is certainly a, it's a step. i think it's a question of, of mentality, i mean, looking at our eastern neighbors, we already talked about that and seeing that they have seen something about russia that we didn't want to see because we were so entangled economically with russia, with our gas supply. for example, that came as a shock, and the change there has actually been very dramatic. i mean, we've cut off russian gas completely within a year. people thought that wouldn't be possible. so now we have to replicate this kind of rapid change in a very different environment in the military environments. so that's, that's a,

that's a tough call for the new defense minister. do you think in some ways germany gets an unfairly bad rap if, if you look at what france is done, actually it's a good deal. less than germany. it's germany, somehow not communicating well enough. what, what steps it's actually taken. well, obviously, yeah, i mean strategic communication is a disaster. even when we state, when we take major steps like the one now with the main battle tanks for months and months, the headlines are germany's hesitating, stalling. the chancellor really doesn't give his reasons. only after the fact he comes out and says of this, this was my plan all along and that's not a way to deal with allies. let me ask you currently now, because you talk to us about how you think, perhaps in germany,

there's not enough understanding for the long historic position and taking in eastern europe. but is that also true? the other way around? one of the reasons for german hesitancy and the chancellor has made this very clear is the conviction here in germany. that after having brought death and destruction down across your and especially across eastern europe, russia, poland. during the 2nd world war, germany needs to exercise maximal self restraint. that was a long standing conviction in this country. just poland, fully understand that. yes, yes, i think you are right when you point, add them to all misunderstandings here. and of course, we can say on the, on one hand, the knowledge and understanding of the eastern europe from the side of the west is shallow. so we, we jump to conclusions very often, right? so we, for example, jumped to a conclusion that eastern europe will be now democratic for old times and there

will be no problems. well, as you, as we all can see, this is not the case. now we basically think, well the light has failed to quote or even crust of. so this is also, it's too soon. it's too much, too soon of a conclusion. now, as for whether poland understands that it depends on who, right? i mean, that's such an analysis that the german society is, and it's mentality. it's is based on its own trauma. it has its own trauma, which is different from the trauma of eastern europe. such understanding is of course, among some experts. and of course are when you, for example, think about hannah or rent, which is why do you read in by the experts in poland. hannah rent wrote other just the 2nd world war that the social rules and the moral rules in germany are basically were destroyed twice in the 20th century. once through the need says that

the 2nd time after the war was finished and, and, and lost and that morality would have to be constructed once again. now, what is happening to this country today? it has been grounded on a certain idea of pacifism. and now germany has to say good bye to the pacifism we accept that it will just evaporate, we have to send to weapons, we have to accept the fact that one thing or not, we are all becoming a part of this war. and i, i do believe i'm often asked in poland, why do that's germany? i react this this way, which is difficult to understand in my country. but then i and i answer that. we also need a kind of empathy for the country and for its own historic traumas. thank you. and let me go back to good stuff to ask about a point that was also raised in our report that we just saw. the defense

minister that olaf schultz had in office from the time he came into office until just a week or so ago was a member of his social democratic party. and she was seen as very much part of the problem. germany now has a new defense minister, also from the social democratic party. and it's a party for who, for which these decisions are especially wrenching. do you think this new decision represents a turn around? partly because of the new occupant of the defense ministry. that's hard to say, um, generally i think the new defense minister makes a much better impression fresh. and the overall numbers. first and foremost, preoccupation was to relieve domestic presser, a pressure for, for shoals, but all key decisions for down in chancery. they are not matter for the ministry of

defense. the minister of defense is an executing body off of some of the decisions . but it's not the key heartburn decisions or me. now, the new defense minister is much sees, much more energetic, ah, oser, in his lesions with other minister of defense, others good feedback. so as now a big decision has been made and it needs to be executed. or the good hope is that somebody who is good at this are made, do the job better. ah, but of course we should a perceive, or think that a minister of defense will wag the dog and, and, and push the chancellor route and here casa, said in his 1st answer earlier on in the show that the degree to which this all makes a difference for the war itself will depend not on technology alone, but also on strategy. so dis, berlin itself has a clear political strategy that is now guiding it along this new path. as the

chancellor presented his decision in the bonus tag, he was asked. so where does the stop? are you going to send fighter planes? are you going to send ground troops? do you think there's a clear strategy in a clear, red light? i think there is no clear red line. now. we're feeling for the red line with every new decision we make. that's what, that's all our shortest idea is. you know, let's just do this incrementally. one thing after the other and see how put in and how russia reacts. and what we don't know if there is a red line connected to a certain weapon system. so let's be cautious here that will have shows approach. and some criticize this as being too cautious. but there is an advantage with this approach that nothing's really excluded except ground troops. but that's also the view of joe biden, and of the whole of nato. no ground troops,

no direct involvement of nato. but that, so if it's, it's ambivalent, i would say this is not a strategy, but i don't see how you can have a strategy in a, in a war like this that's constantly shifting and changing since the ukraine war began calls for german leadership has been accompanied by appeals for europe to become a stronger security actor, yet military here seem to remain in peacetime mode as more dependent on the trans atlantic alliance than ever. according to military experts, the bundeswehr has massive issues, broken tanks, missing ammunition, weapons deliveries to ukraine, exacerbate the problem. the growth that i doubt thought, the biggest part of the turn around ladies and gentlemen,

is still ahead of us. the armed forces, it must unfortunately be said and have often been neglected in recent decades for not living. despite a 100000000000 fund, defense procurement slowed. german defense companies are not prepared for abundance via that oldest, quickly and, and large quantities. on the other hand, the bureaucratic processes and the bundeswehr procurement office continue to drag on endlessly on the european level. germany and france want to co operate more closely again in defense policy to this end development of the f. c. s ad offense system which is to replace the euro fighter and the joint main battle tank shall be driven forward. these projects have been stole due to uncertainty of a funding, but it will be here before these weapons are deployed. ailing armies, bureaucracy, national interests is europe capable of defending itself?

and let me put that question straight to kara. lina is europe capable? it is impossible to have a strategy when one doesn't have a definition of the goal. the only person who, who has the finite to find the goal clearly is, is unfortunately what you're putting, who wants to destroy crane completely. perhaps some new to the finding. a goal are the, the rushes neighbors who basically would like russia to go to the german year 0 to be defeated completely. but then, is it 3 or is it, is it realistic? when nato cannot be a part of this war helpers, perhaps it is unrealistic. so, so i think without defining the goal, even a minimum, just minimize on one, we will not have a common strategy. certainly poland has heard the wake up call. it is one of the

few nato member countries that is actually planning to go to a full 5 percent of domestic national product in order to, to invest in the military. do you think that the balance of power with in europe when we look at security and military is shifting toward the east and the ball text because of their proactive stance and all of this? i think the balance of power, or of leadership of, or energy is shifting from time to time from one place in europe to another a but so, so certainly looks this way today that it has shifted to the east the, the, the, the question is of course, whether they're west is capable of listening and to learn from the east and whether it east is also capable of the leadership and your mint chancellor shots. interestingly enough is now actually being praised by some of the same voices. the

criticized him before, for having made his decision on the leopard tanks contingent on the us delivering these abrams tanks. so question to you. whether he is right to insist that you cranes, western supporters must remain unified and essentially in lock step in everything that they do. and whether that illustrates the strength of the transit logic alliance or the weakness of europe. i agree of that. the west should remain unified in lock step with every weapon system that we supplied to ukraine. i don't buy that argument that we have to be in total lock step there. u. s. has provided so much, i mean without the u. s. ukraine would be in russia hands now. so it's, it's kind of ridiculous for us to say, you know,

if we don't force the us to stay engaged here and nothing will happen. i mean, it's quite the other way around. so, but of course, it's very important not to show rifts that putting could exploit in terms of european strategic sovereignty. this is not a good story. i mean, that this war, because we're very, very dependent on the us. that's obvious. strategic autonomy is something that you're, it's been talking about for years and years and years. do you actually see any change, any forward movement? no, maybe there could be a reaction because of the disaster that we can't provide security on our own continent as europeans to finally wake up now. but that remains to be seen good stuff. the decision on the abrams tank by the us is that largely

a symbolic decision in the end. and could those tanks actually make any difference in the ukraine conflict going forward? boiler wills along with the other tanks. but of course, they are all, let's say they will come later than some of the european tanks. and they will have to be be accompanied by more other measures and support measures for ukraine, the order to enable them to handle a which brings me to these. ready whole id of burke and sharing r u. s. literally dolls, most of the supply and military assistance effort for, for example, for all the rocket launches, germany has provided america provides the ammunition voluntary systems. america provides the ammunition. we don't have that at all. tanks would have been that capability europeans could have provided without us as such. and us good. and we'll

have to concentrate both unique capabilities, but you train that early us can for long, but be basically for very childish reasons. half mate sort of this young team and now of course the republicans will have a little fun, pretty sizing to bide, not miss ration that europeans, us again, but consumed their security at the expense of her so. so lots to talk about going forward. i thank all of you very much for being with us today, and i thank all of our viewers for tuning in. take a look at our youtube channel and sentence here. com. have a look with

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