a documentary series founders valley for meet the founders, empowering their continent through digital innovation, transforming work and living conditions in their country and inspiring world with their ideas. only valley africa started february, 13th for the w is germany is finally ready to make good on the turning point declared nearly a year ago by chancellor sholtes breaking with a long standing taboo. he has now authorized the delivery of german tanks to a conflict zone. ukraine will receive leopard to battle tanks not only directly from germany, but also with berlin's approval from other european countries. and the u. s. is

finalizing plans to send its own abrams battle tank. germany hesitated long before taking this historic step, sparking tension is not only with allies but within the governing coalition, and there's still a long way to go before europe's economic giant wields real military strength. so we're asking arming ukraine is germany a leader or a laggard hello, and welcome to to the point. it is a great pleasure to greet our guests. your aglow is foreign editor at the german weekly deep site cow. lina vigour is a member of the board of the co taura libra on the foundation, which publishes one of poland leading weekly's. he's

a research associate at the university here in berlin and go, staff and castle is senior political fellow and military expert at the berlin office of the european council on foreign relations. and he joins us as we see virtually welcome to all of you. and let me start if i may with you. a good stuff. and ukraine has been pleading for battle tanks with rising urgency. is this decision, a game changer for ukraine? will it make a real difference in the conflict? well, i don't like the word game changer because it suggests that individual weapon systems and uncertain technological command touches can bring the change in a wall loan, which they do. it always depends on the numbers on the employment, on that kind of cleverness of ukrainian on forces to bring certain capabilities to back bought. it is certainly good news of the problem with ukraine struggling with

other tanks that they currently have is the ammunition for these tanks was increasingly difficult to find a prediction within the army depending on the intensity or for, for the intensity of, for, for as probably going to rise with a new expect russian spring offensive, and they will run dry and tank ammunition. now, leopard choose abrams, they go with the juice down the tank ammunition. so it's a completely different line of supply one that we actually can control. so from this side, of course it's very good news. the rest will depend on the time shuttle that will be delivered all the numbers stuff because scratched together and we will see you or do you think the decision is a game changer for germany itself. so it's as repeatedly been criticized. we're doing too little, too late. do you think that's over now? i, i tend to think so a lot of pressure was necessary to bring to this step to,

to go there to go to take this step. but this is a long term commitment, and it's a huge commitment because germany will now have the task to to bring together this european colored coalition of leopard users to bring these tanks to ukraine to supply them with with everything they need to, to train the soldiers so it's a whole package, it's not just this one system and it opens the door to further assistance to ukraine. so i think it's, it's a huge step, catalina, you mentioned pressure. and in fact, poland has been amongst germany's most vocal critics, both eastern european countries and the baltic republics pushing very, very hard for berlin to authorize. the delivery of these battle tanks is worse, are satisfied now,

or do you think that chancellor schoultz is caution has damaged relations? the question is whether we are satisfied now or for now in a couple of weeks or in a couple of months, we'll probably have a very similar discussion about other kinds of weapons. and then probably the same situation will repeat because it's actually not a game changer for germany. it is at one part of a series of very painful game changers here in germany. namely the collective emotions. basically of this society, which is sim, which is visible in the polls, are against a supporting your crate with, with evermore and weapons. and i do believe that what mister mister schultz is doing is he's trying to communicate with those who are actually afraid doesn't want to neglect them. but obviously, because of he's, let's say limit to communication being outside germany. it's very difficult to

understand that. and many partners do not understand it and war so, but also the baltic states also other countries who are neighbors of russia are in the same club of those who are not satisfied fully and who hardly understand pulling seems to feel an immense affinity for ukraine. where does that come from? do you think there's enough understanding of that here in germany? i think that it came as a surprise. well, 1st thing that came as a surprise was that the populace government, who is capable of trumping on the constitution in poland, suddenly started to behave very rationally in the, in the international politics and suddenly, which was also very, very relevant. suddenly it turns out that east europe, eastern europe, has some kind of an out of an experience which is relevant. it doesn't mean that the eastern europe isn't valuable. of course we make mistakes and very often our

definition of the situation are also wrong. or in this particular situation, that is that they are the experience of the 300 years of russian imperialism in poll antennas, tonia in lots and other countries that their neighbors of russia is very relevant. and, and here from this perspective, we might be sharing something important and we'll come back to that a little bit later. but let me ask you a good stuff to talk about how this decision might be seen in moscow. because one reason for the hesitancy here in berlin and also apparently in washington, is because is concerned that delivering battle tanks could provoke vladimir putin to escalate. do you think that that concern is justified? oh, i don't think it's justified of letter we have put in, has escalated this war. he started in the 1st place than he escalated it again by annexing ukrainian territories, annexing them even. you know, territories,

he doesn't even control on then he declared mobilization in order to force people to join the war and not having to recruit them as well. and terry's and we didn't answer that at that escalation. we didn't kind of say, well, if you do that, we can just step our military supplies for you drain because you're not gonna win yourself out of this by, by increasing your commitment of that then was a mistake. and we made no good on it. ah, the russians are planning a spring offensive. they're still mobilized forces that have joined to fight in ukraine and they will over the occurring mugs. but that has been plant. we could have done nothing that the ukrainians would have had more difficulty fighting that off and or we could do something and, and it will be easier for you koreans. but don't think that let have you put in changes is game and war plans just because there's this type or that type of vehicle coming in. let us take

a closer look at where germany stands. shortly after russia invaded ukraine, chancellor schultz delivered a speech lauded by many observers as a sign that berlin was finally ready to lead. but the follow up has been equivocal until now. the fuel in front of you every 24th 2022 marks the turning point in the history of our continental compton. the chancellor promised a special fund of a $100000000000.00 euros for the bundeswehr. he also assured that germany would invest more than 2 percent of its gdp in defense in the future. but almost one year after the turning point, the results, amiga of the 100000000000 just 110th has been spent so far. and the 2 percent target is a long way off. hesitation am to the ring even when it comes to personnel. the

chancellor has been criticized for holding on to his controversial former defense minister will fall too long. and when it comes to military support for ukraine, criticism is pouring in from germany and abroad. critics say germany is supplying too few weapons, all the wrong ones and too slowly. but all our shots repeatedly emphasizes that germany does not want to go it alone. after a long period of hesitation, germany has now given the go ahead will the leopard main battle tank. the pressure was too strong. is the proclaim turning point happening. now. let me put that question a rights to your in the discussion before chancellor schultz finally reached this decision, one renowned germany washer, namely timothy garden. ash the british historian said that the turning board speech

nearly a year ago represented the death of the old thinking. but that the a new thinking hadn't yet been bored. do you think it has now? no, we're just, slowly, slowly getting there. i think. and this recent decision that we're talking about is, is certainly a, it's a step. i think it's a question of, of mentality, i mean, looking at our is their neighbors. we already talked about that and seeing that they have seen something about russia that we didn't want to see. because we were so entangled economically with russia, with our gas supply, for example, that came as a shock. and the change there has actually been very dramatic. i mean, we've cut off russian gas completely within a year. people thought that wouldn't be possible. so now we have to replicate this kind of rapid change in a very different environment in the military environments. so that's, that's, that,

that's a tough call for the new defense minister. do you think in some ways germany gets an unfairly bad rap if, if you look at what francis done, actually it's a good deal less than germany. it's germany, somehow not communicating well enough. what, what steps it's actually taken. well, obviously, yeah, i mean strategic communication is a disaster. even when we state, when we take major steps like the one now with the main battle tanks for months and months, the headlines are germany's hesitating, stalling. the chancellor really doesn't give his reasons. only after the fact he comes out and says of this, this was my plan all along and that's not a way to deal with allies. let me ask you currently now, because you talk to us about how you think, perhaps in germany, there's not enough understanding for the long historic position and taking in

eastern europe. but is that also true? the other way around? one of the reasons for german hesitancy and the chancellor is made this very clear is the conviction here in germany. that after having brought death and destruction down across your and especially across eastern europe, russia, poland. during the 2nd world war, germany needs to exercise maximal self restraint. that was a long standing conviction in this country. just poland, fully understand that. yes, yes, i think you are right. or when you point, add them to all misunderstandings here. and of course, we can say on the, on one hand, the knowledge and understanding of the eastern europe from the side of the west is shallow. so we, we jump to conclusions very often, right? so we, for example, jumped to a conclusion that eastern europe will be now democratic for old times and there

will be no problems. well, as you, as we all can see, this is not the case. now a, we basically think, well, the light has failed to quote or even crust of. so this is also, it's too soon. it's too much, too soon of a conclusion. now, as for whether poland understands that it depends on who. right? i mean, that's such an analysis that the german society it and it's mentality, it's is based on its own trauma. it has its own trauma, which is different from the trauma of eastern europe. such understanding is of course, among some experts. and of course are when you, for example, think about hannah or rent, which is widely read in by the experts in poland. hannah rent wrote other just the 2nd world war. the social rules and the moral rules in germany are basically were destroyed twice in the 20th century. once through the need says that the 2nd time

after the war was finished and, and, and lost and that morality would have to be, are constructed once again. now, what is happening to this country today? it has been grounded on a certain idea of pacifism. and now germany has to say good bye to the pacifism we accept that it will just evaporate, we have to send weapons, we have to accept the fact that one thing or not, we are all becoming a part of this war. and i, i do believe i'm often asked in poland, why do, does germany react this this way, which is difficult to understand in my country. but then i answer that. we also need a kind of empathy for the country and for its own historic from us. thank you, let me go back to good stuff to ask about a point that was also raised in our report that we just saw. the defense

minister that olaf shultz had in office from the time he came into office until just a week or so ago was a member of his social democratic party. and she was seen is very much part of the problem. germany now has a new defense minister, also from the social democratic party. and it's a party for who, for which these decisions are especially wrenching. do you think this new decision represents a turn around? partly because of the new occupant of the defense ministry. that's hard to say, um, generally, i think the new defense minister makes a much better impression fresh. and the overall numbers. first and foremost, preoccupation was to relieve domestic presser of pressure for, for shoals. but all key decisions for down in a chancery are not matter for the ministry of defense. the minister of defense is

an executing body off of some of the decisions, but is not the key hardware decisions or me. now, the new defense minister is much sees, much more energetic, ah, oser, in his lesion with other ministry of defense, others good feedback. so as now a big decision has been made and it needs to be executed. or the good hope is that somebody who is good at this are made, do the job better. ah, but of course we should do perceive, or think that a minister of defense will wag the dog and, and, and push the chancellor out here casa, said in his 1st answer earlier on in the show that the degree to which this all makes a difference for the war itself will depend not on technology alone, but also on strategy. so does or lend itself, have a clear political strategy that is now guiding it along this new path. as the chancellor presented his decision in the bonus tag,

he was asked. so where does the stop? are you going to send fighter planes? are you going to send ground troops? do you think there is a clear strategy in a clear red light? i think there is no clear red line. now. we're feeling for the red line with every new decision we make. that's what, that's all our shortest idea is. you know, let's just do this incrementally. one thing after the other and see how put in and how russia reacts. and what we don't know if there is a red line connected to a certain weapon system. so let's be cautious here, that will have shows approach a some criticize this as being too cautious. but there is an advantage with this approach that nothing's really excluded except ground troops. but that's also the view of joe biden, and of whole of nato. no ground troops,

no direct involvement of nato. but that, so if it's, it's ambivalent, i would say this is not a strategy, but i don't see how you can have a strategy in a, in a war like this that's constantly shifting and changing since the ukraine war began calls for german leadership has been accompanied by appeals for europe to become a stronger security actor, yet military here seem to remain in peacetime mode as more dependent on the trans atlantic alliance than ever. according to military experts, the bundeswehr has massive issues, broken tanks, missing ammunition, weapons deliveries to ukraine, exacerbate the problem. to go with that either. i thought the biggest part of the turn around ladies and gentlemen, is still ahead of us. the armed forces. it must,

unfortunately be said and have often been neglected in recent decades for not living. despite a 100000000000 fund, defense procurement slowed german defense companies are not prepared for a bonus via that oldest quickly and in large quantities. on the other hand, the bureaucratic processes and the bond is vast procurement office continue to drag on endlessly on the european level, germany and france on to co operate more closely again in defense policy to this end development of the f. c. s ad offense system which is to replace the euro fighter and the joint main battle tank shall be driven forward. these projects have been stole due to uncertainty of a funding, but it will be years before these weapons are deployed. ailing all, meas, murat, christy national interests is europe capable of defending itself

and let me put that question straight to kara. lina is europe capable? it is impossible to have a strategy when one doesn't have a definition of the goal. the only person here who has the fact to find the goal clearly is, is unfortunately, what do you need to put in? who wants to destroy crane completely? perhaps some new to the finding. a goal are the, the rushes neighbors who basically would like russia to go to the german year 0 to be defeated completely. but then, is it 3 or is it, is it realistic? when nato cannot be a part of this war, old person, perhaps it is unrealistic. so, so i think without defining the goal, even a minimum, just minimize talent one, we will not have a common strategy. certainly, poland has heard the wake up call. it is one of the few nato member countries that

is actually planning to go to a full 5 percent of domestic national product in order to, to invest in the military. do you think that the balance of power with in europe when we look at security and military is shifting toward the east and the ball text because of their proactive stance and all of this? i think the balance of power, or of leadership of, or energy is shifting from time to time from one place in europe to another. but so, so certainly looks this way today that it has shifted to the east the, the, the, the question is of course, whether they're west is capable of listening and to learn from the east and whether it east is also capable of the leadership. and you meant chancellor shots, interestingly enough, is now actually being praised by some of the same voices. the criticized him before

for having made his decision on the leopard tanks contingent on the us delivering these abrams tanks. so question to you whether he is right to insist that ukraine's western supporters must remain unified and essentially in lock step in everything that they do. and whether that illustrates the strength of the transit lanika alliance or the weakness of europe. i agreed that the west should remain unified in lockstep with every weapon system that we supplied to ukraine. i don't buy that argument that we have to be in total locked up there. the u. s. has provided so much. i mean without the u. s. ukraine would be in russia as a hands now. so it's, it's kind of ridiculous for us to say, you know, if we don't force the us to stay engaged here and nothing will happen. i mean,

it's quite the other way round. so, um, but of course it's very important not to show rifts that putting could exploit in terms of european strategic sovereignty. this is not a good story. i mean, that this war, because we're very, very dependent on the us. that's obvious. strategic autonomy is something that you're, it's been talking about for years and years and years. do you actually see any change, any forward movement? no, maybe there could be a reaction because of the disaster that we can't provide security on our own continent as europeans to finally wake up now. but that remains to be seen good stuff. the decision on the abrams tank by the us is that largely a symbolic decision in the end. and could those tanks actually make any

difference in the ukraine conflict going forward? boiler will along with the other tanks. but of course, they are all, let's say it, they will come later than some of the european tanks. and they will have to be be accompanied by more other measures and support measures for ukraine, the order to enable them to handle them. which brings me to this. ready whole idea of burden sharing, r u. s. italy dawes, most of the supply and military assistance effort for, for example, for all the rocket launches, germany has provided america, provides the ammunition for territory systems. america provides the ammunition. we don't have that at all. tanks. would it be that capability? europeans could have provided without us as such and us period and we'll have to concentrate both unique capabilities, but you train that early us can fly,

but basically for very childish reasons. half mate sort of this young team. and now of course, the republicans will have a lot of fun criticising to bide not miss ration that europeans us again, because you there security at the expense of her tech. so lots to talk about going forward. i think all of you very much for being with us today, and i thank all of our viewers for tuning in. take a look at our youtube channel and sentence here come with with

ah, with to shift your guide to life in the digital world. explore the latest online trends. navigate your way through the digital jungle, get a global perspective,

will be your guide and show you what's possible. you decide what really matters to you. shift coming up on d, w. i. the 2 faces of rose course in industrialized countries. it's a beauty accessory, costing up to 40 euros. in madagascar, it is the only source of income for a kilo, of course, a minor gets $0.10. the dirty business of beauty. in 15 minutes on d w, where all that to go beyond be obvious. as we take on the world, 8 hours, i do all the fans, we're all about the stories that matter to you.

whatever it takes with your we are your is actually on fire made for mines. oh india. ah, a lender contrast of ambitions of inequality. ah, 75 years ago, mahatma gandhi peacefully led the country to independence. provide deals with what is remains of his vision with what's the status of

human rights and social justice in what's called the world's largest democracy. ah, with is the moment to unleash on on violet boss and re imagined these teachings or elements to us. ah, gandhi's legacy starts january 28th on b, w. ah. ah, the since he got good news and these are the top stories in the u. s. police has released put at showing the rest and the beating of a black man tidy nika, the graphic images show 5 offices savagely, beating $28.00 or nicholas at a traffic stop earlier this month.