for this, perhaps the greatest leonardo masterpiece in the collection of the louvre and no, it is not the mona lisa. it is the virgin of the rocks, 2 versions, multiple copies into hidden drawing. was there another symbolic meaning to this beautiful painting that perhaps we just don't understand? the switch for answers to february 10th on d. w. a chinese balloon flying high over america has led to the cancellation of high level talks between beijing and washington and halted any chance of a thor in relations between the 2 countries. the american said the balloon was spying and shut it down over the atlantic. chinese claim it was studying the weather and straight unintentionally. of course, it could hardly have come at

a worse time. my guest in beijing, the senior colonel ju bow expert on chinese security and strategy. i think of the world are you looking really dangerous in that? so it seems that the world is totally split apart from the balloon. there are plenty of other irritants that washington wanted to discuss. china's refusal to condemn moscow, the invasion of ukraine and its increasing threats directed taiwan. is china preparing to take the island by force? ah, senior colonel, as you bow, welcome to conflict zone. checking the seller, sir. china's balloon got shot down after violating usaa space. it had no right to be there. of course. why? the indignant response from bay ging is that they just don't like getting caught. i think the chinese government has expressed regret already and therefore,

i believe the american government should not makes really fuss about it. after all is just an accident. so they should not really bother too much about it. if i compare this kind of entry, which is most unfortunate to americans are numerous and endless. reconnaissance, i said late, it's a lot chinese coast or the south china sea in the name of freedom navigation. i would say that he pays a purposeful while, aus ah, ah, you know, divergent is this case. you say, yeah, yeah, that remark is making fast, but we've had claims of overreaction from your government, a statement of strong discontent and protest. there was even a threat of retaliation. we reserve the right to take further measures. what happened to china? cool, cool heads. you're not telling me china. i wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if a u. s. balloon had floated over its territory. well,

i think you have the use the right word overreaction, and that is how we have described american action american pot china coast with reserve rise, you know, to reciprocate if there is a tape. of course, you can expect that pat, but i believe the general spirit of the remarks of a spokesman is to have will, you know, kind of a cool headed conversation to talk about all this. because there are so many new international rules regarding a share regarding shipping the industry by the minority. not so many rules are made about this kind of balloon stuff while ago, historically the rogers and the law of the war which prohibits for example, throwing projectiles explosive from balloons. so if the united states believe is su, so alarming, then that probably believe this will provide a good chart for the 2 countries to talk about all these things in

a candidate to honest man. well, let's just look at china's claim. beijing says this was nothing more than a weather balloon. it was blown off course by unpredictable winds. and yet out of almost 10000000 square miles in north america to choose from, your balloon just hovers. it talks itself for a while above americas missile silos in montana water. coincidence that china really expect anyone to believe that explanation. well, if the people do not believe it, then my question is, how can shine that, you know, project a such a big balloon, which is the lodge of those 3 buses which move slowly and in the direction of the united states. knowing this is shortly will be detected. knowing mr. asked the blink and american secretary is set to visit a china. well, you know, mr. real time, what is the purpose of child doing that?

well, if somebody doesn't want to visit, if you can't control your balloons and prevent them from violating other countries as space, perhaps you shouldn't be flying them in the firm. should you? well, i think good, you know, the, you, the balloon for 17 research. it is a perfectly legal and it is allowable, as i said before, this is simply an accident, while people make mistakes and they could be accident. so it is, it is all right, and we are honest about that. we expressed regret, and we hope this page would it be over. if this page is not over, then we should discuss about how we should avoid the things you know from happening in the future. the americans track this balloon for some days. last wednesday, the state department raised the issue with your embassy in washington, but got no answers. so here's the question. why did begging wait for the americans

to raise this issue? if it was an honest mistake in an innocent flight, why didn't making act according to international norms and immediately allowed washington when the object violated us? asked bass. i don't believe the chinese government was silent. actually if you read the website, the chinese news report and fast spokesman actually was talking about this almost on daily basis in recent days. and from the past, the remarks of the spokesman she mentioned, declared is that we would you know, investigate the, into the situation because the minister of foreign affairs should not be supposed to know everything beforehand. and this is down to us honest attitude for her to say like that. and then for china to find it out. and the china very soon has expressed an opinion through a statement here from

a fact to china had the chance to raise this issue of its own accord with the americans. are you tell me? i didn't know where it's balloon was. it didn't raise the issue. it waited until the americans raised it and then last thursday, when the us announced the president, the presence of the balloon, your spokeswoman played dumb, saying china would gather and verify the facts. there was nothing to gather or verify was that senior colonel job bo saying, well, you already knew exactly what it was because the state department raised the issue with the diplomats. so why play dumb? honest people don't need to do that? do they? well, i think the municipal foreign affairs should not be taken for granted that they should know everything beforehand because he's not that everybody would provide them the information beforehand. and if there is an accident or if there is an instant, well when it is become public or if municipal foreign affairs is well of it,

of course it won't start investigation with approval over the charges for government. and then we could find out to the choose. yeah, well, this is the obvious natalie. there's nothing wrong with that. this time, according to the pentagon, this isn't the 1st time you've done this pentagon says you've got away with doing this, at least for other times. it seems you send these balloons off and you can't control them, you say and, and then you don't draw attention to the countries whose space you're violating. that doesn't seem to be the act of a responsible power, which trying to continually says it is. well, pentagon would say so many things, and i don't know which one is true and which is not, but i know at least one thing is a true. what know what the general talk about china and china going to attack taiwan in 2025 pentagon. the rest of that, this agreement and this car with this discrepancy will show actually that method,

lee, how divided the united states has become in terms of coordination on where he branches in terms of coordination within the military. so right now, the much wo, the united states, the message is highly divided. you don't seem much better coordination in china to be honest, if you're not, if you're ministry, don't know where you're balloons are, and they sail blindly over whichever countries they. they feel like the particular time and you say nothing about it. what, what's puzzling about china's indignant reaction to the shooting down is that it seems to want to make this and even more damaging offend than it already is. why we're talking about a damaging, i believe. but this is, stephanie has affected a china us relationship. if this is what you want to talk about, this relationship is already enough. as you said, then to has certainly affected this relationship. but i believe

we need to sit down to talk about so many so many important issues. we should not let a big balloon overshadow. this relationship that would be silly. yeah. drugs as balloon the, the balloon and that it is that it is no longer there and it will be left to probably in history. but there are so many pressing hardy issues was this 2 countries to deal ways as this a, the priority. otherwise, why wouldn't buy this and as the blink and to come to china. so you think the visits of anthony blanco us secretary of state can be resurrected? can it is this is what china wants. i think he himself has spreads out every word to come to china at the earliest possible time. i believe he's waiting for, for, for the lapse of time to setting stand because he certainly would not wish his visit. apparently a very important visit to be overshadowed by big or symbolic

a balloon. this is like a hollywood movie. let's talk if we may about the war in ukraine, one of the subjects that mr. lincoln might perhaps have discussed with the government of his trip, gone ahead. you've written that china has taken a careful line between russia. it's strategic partner and ukraine, a significant trading partner. but it's not just a polite way of saying you're sitting on the fence waiting to see who wins after you don't want to back a loser. do you? well, it still is a difficult situation for everybody, including china because it, as you have, are corrected or quoted in my, my opinion. well, russia, china strategies partner, but will have a very good relationship with ukraine's. well, i believe the china has a try these best to be in a neutral position at china has tried to best to be impartial. and i tell you,

i leave for china is just sitting on the fence. this is definitely the wrong impression. think of this every china joins the russia. yeah. you can you chatter take the russian side? well, probably already in the so the, whoa, whoa, but a china hasn't as far back as last. may you? acknowledged? pretty bluntly, that putins all out war against ukraine had failed. and you weren't impressed with his frequent threats to use nuclear weapons. is that a view shed by the communist party, the senior echelons, the communist party in the military and china? that is my personal view. well, i believe that this war will continue, but they're putting will not be a victor or a loser because the russia is so big and yourselves as a strong. so russia want to lose this war, but it can hardly win this war because actually russia is fighting against the nato

indirectly in terms of the potential of him using nuclear weapon. i believe my also is a very straight forward. no, because this would be the humanity because this wouldn't be a guess and the promise of russia when it be clad in a joint statement with other weapon states that a nuclear war can never be won. therefore you to should not be fought at all. so he's proteins, nuclear blackmail, a step to fall for china as beijing started to get irritated by moscow threats. i think you should not talk about. we didn't talk about using nuclear weapons directly, but he didn't mentioned as a hints how nuclear weapons might be used that he talking about the president to a, during the 2nd world war. what i think it was referring to,

what happened to an exactly, i'm a hero shima, but that is a bad example to quote you not to commit a murder because you have just seen the murder. right? so that is the use of nuclear weapon is against the chinese policy, is again to humanity. the should not be encouraging in any circumstances with any reasons at all. so what we're trying to do about it, you keep saying that in the past that china should do more, what more should it do to prevent prevent nuclear war? yeah, china actually has already done something because the german chancellor shows with to china. it was stressed by president a shooting pain that a nuclear weapons should not be used. europe and mister shows just went back and said simply because of this agreement, his of is to charge was less while i'm the president a. she mentioned this again during the but natural meeting with the prison abided

at the g. 20. so china's position on this issue is clear cut. it is crystal clear. and is there any sign that moscow is listening to china's position? i want to be able to speak on behalf of russians, but i believe, well, if somebody has written some opinions in their tea, in the economist all chinese president has a talk a bit more than one occasions. russians should have heard it. you wrote recently that by threatening ukraine, which chose to give up its nuclear weapons, russia has already tarnished its reputation. then it also tonisha reputation by murdering large numbers of ukrainians who pose no threat of any kind russia? well, we're talking about a wall and the was definitely it would have a casualties. are we talking about war crimes? senior colonel. yeah. bu. but talking about war crimes here. when just talking

about war, we're talking about women being raped. we're talking about men being executed in cold blood. we're talking about children being deported from ukraine to russia. we're talking about war crimes here. while was crime definitely related to war, because without was how can we have low primes? this, the passion to either war. but we do in china understand this and the we do called a full respect for sovereignty. but in this case, do not just mention about the war to self. and the more important thing is also to discuss why this one has happened at all because of nato's expansion. because all the western countries, all, because all nato countries and has a perfectly connected warnings that from the, even the somebody union starting from gorbachev. the bar is also to president putin . well, what makes the person to put in different from his predecessors?

he actually was not owning a warning he carried into action, so that he, that is a difference. so i believe to resolve this issue. i don't know how long it will last, but eventually that they will come when the war becomes finished. but how can we make sure that any war like this will not happen again? i believe nato should read a section, so to stop expansion anymore. it probably change over russia, supplies of not using nuclear weapons, because this is what russia nuclear, new blackmail this would be giving into nuclear blackmail. and then, and then anybody can do that, north korea could do that. pakistan could do that. iran, maybe if it gets nuclear weapons, could do that. you up in the way, the moment anybody rattles and nuclear weapons that you, you step back. that's the end of deterrence. do you really want that? is that what you're advocating given to any body who threatens you?

with a nuclear weapon. well, that's exactly what i'm against, because the nuclear weapon is not supposed to be even kept in the hands of the nuclear weapon states. but you're sure back down simply because put any threatening it with nuclear weapons? no, it's not my point. a natal had also has a nuclear weapon states among them, right. and you have the strongest emitted power in that you have a problem. so you will have the britain will also have nuclear weapons threatening to use it. i'm like russia and nato is not threatening to use it. nuclear weapons may tell you that not a threatening not to threaten using nuclear weapons. that is correct. but a nato have not applied to it to stop expansion, which cause russia to panic and which caused russia to threaten to use nuclear weapons. so therefore, they're not talking about the new you about a house you could reach

a compromise. we come not only talk about the facts on this until we come to root causes that well won't be able to find the right way to address all these problems . let's talk about the other major issue on the horizon, which is taiwan and china is increasingly threatening behavior towards it. last year, chinese plains made over 1700 incursions into ty, ones and defense identifications largest in question was by 47 planes on christmas day. a chinese spokesman said it was a response to american provocation, and yet they didn't, continues to insist. it's for peaceful striving for peaceful unification. has a funny way of showing it's peaceful credentials, doesn't. you're using the wrong word in cushions. there isn't there. you know. i didn't advocate what to say where or even s space of the tower, which because time is part of china. yes. we have within the many flights within

them as a warning against the potential over a taiwan becoming a separatist part of china. so we want to stop that from happening. i'm happy you mention the united states and well, this is almost like a chicken egg questions. but look, that the fact that last the polosa visited china. yeah, is by the will warning from china in spite of disagreement from that pentagon and from a president biden. so she's still insisted to go. she probably would be remembered she, i think she want to be remember as someone who has left her legacy. but history is not only written by the victors, it's also written by lou, this wifi in such a loser. why don't we just cut through the rhetoric about peace? the message is clear enough. china will take taiwan by force if it will surrender voluntarily and that time is getting close. isn't that the bottom line? i don't think so because the correctness for then what all these threats flow. i

think a child in china is the readiness to use force is just the maintain at the last a non peaceful means. because the taiwan that is totally shut him about, it would not be in the interest of the whole china. therefore, we have to suppress that. we have multiples is entity and it would make the optimal step to resolve this issue peacefully by the one load. we are not guaranteed that definitely we might be able to, to resolve this abuse party. so we, you know, military have to be well prepared. what does that cover? what, what does a peaceful settlement or any country just said, god is a sovereignty. what does it look like with taiwan? what does a peaceful settlement look like with taiwan, taiwan, giving it the one part control to beijing? yeah. that's it. well we, we have a lay down conditions and no photo for having to tie when these people to listen to

. and so these conditions are not a secret at all, and we would be very much, you know, tolerant with that. but it was system with a way of living. look at the fact that that's how you ones better says mind you certainly your better relationship with wisdom and the china. and he has written many benefits. why? because the men of china has more trust him is a question of trust is, although at that time we did not have a time table to say when we should to become re unified. but at least the men, china, i believe. but it is possible for us to become reunify that peacefully if we go down the road. right now, we're doing the time of time. and hong kong is the model for this the same blueprint as hong kong. is that right? people will be divided into patriots. and traitors, the so called traitors who want to demonstrate and protest on the streets will go to jail for a long time. and the patriots loyal to the new masters in beijing. we'll get all

the top jobs. is that the scenario that trying to? well, well i think you, i just making that bit simplistic into a black and white picture. so that's what's happening in hong kong. that's what's happening though i don't think so. essentially what you're asking is whether democracy in hong kong has it could be maintained maintained right. yeah, asking the question about democracy, but let me tell you democracy has many forms. and the what is clear in the world today is that is not my remark. it says the there the report, munitions, record a conference, not only in the world is it become less western, but also the west yourself is becoming less western. if you're talking about democracy, democracy has been declared. i mean that western democracy has to be declared according to freedom house ever since a 2006. and i believe this country martin continued to declare how many people in the west to really be living western democracy. yeah. and to look at the united

states, you been why you for people according to to the media? wouldn't believe the nice the my just to end up having, having fema will soon. yeah. you both have democracy. look in china these days. we just had the largest anti government protests and decades against the 0 cove. it's policy. how do they look in your country these days? i think you have a handpick to some st. let them to tell you what democracy in china, democracy in china means that we had to 1st of all pay attention to people's right . subsistence and development, and which party in human history can actually lit shaker poverty of 800000000 people in 40. yes, this is done by the chinese communist party by repression. so by report charges, people are starting to much better off that in the past. yeah, any people over the age of 40 wouldn't would recognize that. so we are having chinese democracy in our own way. so you actually referring everything to kind of

western type of democracy. i believe this is somewhat biased. senior colonel through boat, we've discussed international issues. we've discussed briefly issues inside china, seen from beijing just how dangerous is the world looking right now. i think of the world, are you looking really dangerous in that it seems that the world is totally split . yeah. china article corporation with the united states. but we always got from united was they called a competition or you make stream competing? let me ask a question. when the competition is already extreme, how far is it away from a conflict? it is go to that a china is, or the rising power is still talking about the corporation, which makes you will feel safer, corporation or competition senior economies. you bo, thank you very much,

we run out of time. thanks for your time. thanks for being on. come pick them. thank you very much. ah. ah, with

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