a chinese security and strategy apart from the balloon, verify the letter a written washington wanted to discuss what will happen next. conflict on d, w a. the a chinese balloon flying high over america has led to the cancellation of high level talks between beijing and washington. and hold it any chance of a thor in relations between the 2 countries. the american said the balloon was spying and shot it down over the atlantic. chinese claim it was studying the

weather and straight unintentionally. of course. it could hardly have come at a worse time. my guest in beijing, the senior colonel, you bow expert on chinese security and strategy. i think the world are you looking really dangerously in that? it seems that the world is totally split apart from the balloon. there are plenty of other irritants. washington wanted to discuss china's refusal to condemn moscow the invasion of ukraine, and it's increasing threat directed taiwan. is china preparing to take the island by force? ah, senior colonel as you bow. welcome to conflict zone. checking with china's balloon. got shot down after violating u. s. s. space. it had no right to be there. of course why the indignant response from beijing is that they just don't like getting caught. i think as the chinese

government has expressed regret already. and therefore, i believe the american government should not makes really fuss about it. after all, is just an accident. so they should not really bother too much about it. if i compare this kind of entry, which is most unfortunate to americans are numerous and endless. reconnaissance said late, it's a lot chinese coast or the south china sea in the name of freedom navigation. i would say that he pays a purposeful while aus ah, ah, you know, divergent in this case, you say, yeah, yeah, that remark is making fast, but we've had claims of overreaction from your government, a statement of strong discontent and protest. there was even a threat of retaliation. we reserve the right to take further measures. what happened to china? cool for cool heads. you're not telling me china wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if a u. s. balloon had floated over its territory. well,

i think you have the use the right word over action, and that is how we have described american action american pot china coast with reserve rise, you know, to reciprocate a facility that tate. of course, you can expect that pat, but i believe the general spirit of the remarks of a spokesman is to have will, you know, kind of a cool headed conversation to talk about all this. because there are so many new international rules regarding a share regarding shipping, the industry by the, to my knowledge, not of so many rules are made about this kind of ballou stuff while ago, historically the rogers and the law of the war which prohibits for example, throwing projectiles explosive from balloons. so if the united states and believers su so alarming, then that probably believe this would provide

a good chance for the 2 countries to talk about all these things that in a candidate to honest man. well, let's just look at china's claim. beijing says this was nothing more than a weather balloon. it was blown off course by unpredictable winds. and yet out of almost 10000000 square miles in north america to choose from, your balloon just hovers. it pox itself for a while above americas missile silos in montana water coincidence, the time to really expect anyone to believe that explanation. well, if the people do not believe it, then my question is, how can shine that, you know, project a such a big balloon, which is the lodge of those 3 buses, which you move slowly and in the direction of the united states. knowing this shortly would be detected knowing mr. asked the blue can american secretary is set to visit a china enormous a real time. what is the purpose of child doing that?

well, somebody didn't want the visit, if you can't control your balloons and prevent them from violating other countries as space, perhaps you shouldn't be flying them in the 1st place. well, i think good, you know, the, you, the balloon for scientific research. it is a perfectly legal and it is allowable, as i said before, this is simply an accident, while people make mistakes and there could be accidents. so it is, it is all right, and we are honest about that. we expressed regret, and we hope this page would it be over. if this page is not over, then we should discuss about how we should avoid the savings from happening in the future. the americans track this balloon for some days. last wednesday, the state department raised the issue with your embassy in washington, but got no answers. so here's the question. why did begging wait for the americans

to raise this issue? if it was an honest mistake in an innocent flight, why didn't making act according to international norms and immediately allowed washington when the object violated us? asked bass. i don't believe a chinese government was silent. actually if you read the website, the chinese news report and fast spokesmen, actually it was it talking about this almost on daily basis in recent days and from the past, the remarks of the spokesman she mentioned declared is that we would you know, investigate the, into the situation because the minister of foreign affairs too not to be supposed to know everything beforehand. and this is down to us honest attitude for her to say like that. and then for china to find it out. and the china very soon has

expressed an opinion through a statement here from the fact to china had the chance to raise this issue of its own accord with the americans. you told me i didn't know where it's balloon was. it didn't raise the issue. i waited until the americans raised it and then last thursday, when the us announced the president, the presence of the balloon, your spokeswoman played dumb saying china would gather and verify the facts. there was nothing to gather or verify was the senior colonel jo saying, well, you'll read you exactly what it was because the state to bomb and raise these you with your diplomats. so why play dumb? honest people don't need to do that? do they? well, i think municipal foreign affairs should not be taken for granted that they should know everything beforehand because he's not of that. everybody will provide them the information beforehand and if there is an accident or if there is an instant, well when it is become public or if municipal foreigner fast is aware of it,

of course it won't start investigation with approval over the charge for government . and then we could find out to the choose. yeah, well, this is the obvious natalie. there's nothing wrong with that. this time, according to the pentagon, this isn't the 1st time you've done this pentagon says you've got away with doing this, at least for other times. it seems you send these balloons off and you can't control them, you say and, and then you don't draw attention to the countries who's f space, you're violating. that doesn't seem to be the act of a responsible power, which trying to continually says it is. well, pentagon would say so many things, and i don't know which one is true and which is not, but i know at least one thing is true, where no one knew the general's talking about china and china going to attack taiwan in 2025 pentagon the rest of that, this agreement and this car with this discrepancy will show actually that methley

how divide in the united states has become in terms of chord nation where he branches in terms of coordination within the military. so right now they came to me much as well to whoa, the united states must be highly divided. you don't seem much better coordination in china. to be honest, if you don't know if your ministry don't know where you're balloons are, and they sail blindly over whichever countries a, they feel like the particular time and you say nothing about it. what's puzzling about china's indignant reaction to the shooting down is that it seems to want to make this and even more damaging offend than it already is. why you're talking about a damaging, i believe. but this certainly has affected the china us relationship. if this is what you want to talk about, this relationship is already enough,

as you said in to have certainly affected this relationship. but i believe we need to sit down to talk about so many so many important issues. we should not let a big balloon overshadow this relationship, that it would be silly. yeah. drugs as blue, only the balloon and that it is no longer there. and it won't let me to probably in history, but there are so many pressing hardy issues was this 2 countries to deal ways at this a, the priorities otherwise, why wouldn't buy this and as the blink and to come to china. so you think the visit of anthony blanco us secretary of state can be resurrected, gannett. is this what china was? i think he himself had spreads out if he were to come to china at the earliest possible time. i believe he's waiting for, for, for the lapse of time to setting stand because he certainly would not wish his

visit. apparently a very important visit to be overshadowed by big or symbolic a balloon. this is of like a hollywood movie. let's talk if we may about the war in ukraine. one of the subjects that mister blanc um, might perhaps have discussed with your government his trip had gone ahead. you've written that china has taken a careful line between russia. it's strategic partner and ukraine. a significant trading partner, but it's not just a polite way of saying you're sitting on the fence waiting to see who wins after you don't want to back or lose or do you. well, it's still is a difficult situation for everybody, including china. because it, as you have, are corrected or quoted in my, my opinion, well, russia, china strategies partner, but will have a very good relationship with ukraine's. well, i believe the china has the chinese best to be in

a neutral position at china has tried to best to be impartial. and i tell you, i leave for china is just sitting on the fence. this is definitely the wrong impression. think of this every china joins the russia. yeah. you can. you child to take the russian side? well, probably already in the said, whoa, whoa, but a china hasn't as far back as last. may you? acknowledged? pretty bluntly, that putins all out war against ukraine had failed. and you weren't impressed with his frequent threats to use nuclear weapons. is that a view shed by the communist party, the senior actual arms and the communist party in the military and china? that is my personal view. i believe that this war will continue, but they are putting will not be a victor or a loser because the russia is so big and he sells as a strong. so russia want to lose this war, but it can hardly win this war because actually russia is fighting against the nato

indirectly in terms of the potential of him using nuclear weapon. i believe my also is a very straight forward. no, because this would be the humanity because this wouldn't be a guess and the promise of russia, when it declared in a joint statement with the other, you feel what the state that a nuclear war can never be won. therefore, you should not be fought at all. so he's proteins, nuclear blackmail, a step to fall for china. as beijing started to get irritated by moscow threats. i think to see should not talk about. we didn't talk about using nuclear weapon directly, but he did the mentioned as hints how nuclear weapons might be used that he talking about the president to do the 2nd. whoa, whoa. what i think it was referring to, what happened to an exactly, i'm

a hero shima, but that is a bad example to quote, you will not to commit a murder because you have just seen the murder. right? so that is the use of nuclear weapon is i guess a chinese policy is again the humanity the should not be encouraging in any circumstances with any reasons at all. so what we're trying to do about it, you keep saying that in the past that china should do more, what more should it do to prevent prevent nuclear war? yeah, china actually has already done something because the german chancellor shows with to china. it was stressed by president a shooting pain that a nuclear weapons should not be used. europe and mister shows just went back and said simply because of this agreement, he's a big to charge was less while i'm the president a she mentioned this again during the but natural meeting with the prison biden at

the g. 20. so china's position on this issue is clear cut. it is crystal clear. and is there any sign that moscow is listening to china's position? i want to be able to speak on behalf russians, but i believe, well, if somebody has written some opinions, you never t in the economist. all chinese president has a talk a bit more than one occasions. russians should have heard it. you wrote recently that by threatening ukraine, which chose to give up its nuclear weapons. russia has already tarnished its reputation. didn't it also tonisha reputation by murdering large numbers of ukrainians who pose no threat of any kind to russia? well that we're talking about a wall and the was definitely it would have a casualties. we talk about war crimes, senior colonel. yeah. bu we're talking about war crimes here. when talking about

war, we're talking about women being raped. we're talking about men being executed in cold blood. we're talking about children being deported from ukraine to russia. we're talking about war crimes here. while, while crime definitely related to war, because without was how can we have low primes? this, the passion to either war. but we do in china understand this, and we do call the full respect for sovereignty, but in this case, do not just mention about the war itself. and the more important thing is also to discuss why this has happened at all because of nato's expansion. because all the western countries, all, because all nato countries has a perfectly connected warnings from the even the somebody union study from gorbachev. the bar is also to present the pooty. well, what makes food to

a person to put in different from his predecessors. he actually was not owning the warning, it carried it into action. so that is, that is a difference. so i believe to resolve this issue. i don't know how long it will last, but eventually that they will come when the wall becomes finished. but how can we make sure that anyway, like this won't not happen again. i believe nato should read a section, so to stop expansion anymore. probably exchange over russia, supplies of not using nuclear weapons. because this is what russia nuclear, new blackmail this would be giving into nuclear blackmail. and then, and then anybody can do that, north korea could do that, pakistan could do that. iran, maybe if it gets nuclear weapons, could do that you up in the way. the moment anybody rattles and nuclear weapons that you, you step back, that's the end of deterrence. do you really want that? is that what you're advocating given to any body who threatens you with

a nuclear weapon? well, that's exactly what i'm against. because the nuclear weapon is not supposed to be even kept in the hands of the nuclear weapon states. but just to make sure back down simply because protein is threatening it with nuclear weapons. no, it's not my point. and they don't also have the nuclear weapon states among them, right. and you have the strongest emitted power in if you have a problem. so you will have the britain will also have nuclear weapons threatening use, unlike russia and nato is not threatening to use it. nuclear weapons, they tell you that not the threatening not to threaten using nuclear weapons, that is correct. but a nato have not applied to do to stop expansion, which causes russia to panic and the which caused russia to threaten to use nuclear weapons. so therefore, they're not talking about the view you russia about a house, you could reach

a compromise. we can not only talk about effects unless i'm on till we come to root cause they won't be able to find the right way to address all these problems. let's talk about the other major issue on the horizon, which is taiwan and china's increasingly threatening behavior towards it. last year, chinese plains made over 1700 incursions into ty, ones, and defense identifications, our largest in question was by 47 planes on christmas day. a chinese spokesman said it was a response to american provocation, and yet they didn't, continues to insist. it's for peaceful striving for peaceful unification. has a funny way of showing it's peaceful credentials, doesn't. you're using the wrong word in cushions. there isn't there. you know. i did advocate what to say, where all you been asked space of the tower, which because tower is part of china. yes. we have with the many flights within

them as a warning against the potential over a taiwan becoming a separatist part of china. so we want to stop that from happening. i'm happy you mention the united states and well, this is almost like a chicken egg questions. but look at the fact that the last, the pianos visited china. yeah. is by the will warning from china, in spite of disagreement from the pentagon and from a president biden. so she's still insisted to go. she probably wouldn't be remember she, i think she want to be remember as someone who has left a legacy. but history is not only written by the victors, it's also written by lou, this. why me in such a loser? why don't we just cut through the rhetoric about peace? the message is clear enough. china will take taiwan by force if it will surrender voluntarily and that time is getting close. isn't that the bottom line?

i don't think so because you want to threaten this fall then what all these threats flow. i think a child in china is the readiness to use force is just the maintain at the last non peaceful means. because the taiwan that is totally shut him, a battered would not be in the interest of the whole. china, therefore we'd have suppressed 7. we have multiple entity and it would make the optimal step to resolve this issue peacefully. but the one load we are not guaranteed that definitely we might be able to, to resolve this with you 40. so we, you know, military have to be well prepared. what does what, what does a peaceful settlement or any country to save? god is a sovereignty. what does it look like with taiwan? what does a peaceful settlement look like? taiwan, taiwan, giving it darwin control to beijing. yeah. that's it. well, we, we have a lay down conditions and, you know,

photo for having to tie when needs people to listen to. and so these conditions are not secret at all. and we would be very much, you know, tolerant with the political system with a way of living, look at the fact that that's how you one's better. has a mind, you certainly better relationship with wisdom and the china. and he has read the many benefits. why? because the men that china has more trust him is a question of trust is, although at that time we did not have a time table to say when we should have become re unified. but at least men in china believe. but it is possible for us to become reunify that peacefully if we go down the road. right now, we do time a part time. and hong kong is the model for this the same blueprint as hong kong. is that right? people will be divided into patriots. and traitors, the so called traitors who want to demonstrate and protest on the streets will go to jail for a long time. and the patriots loyal to the new masters in beijing. we'll get all

the top jobs. is that the scenario trying to? well, well i think you, i just making that bit simplistic into a black and white picture. so that's what happened in hong kong. that's what's happening though i don't think so. essentially what you're asking is whether democracy in hong kong has could be maintained maintained. right. yeah, asking the question about democracy, but let me tell you democracy has many forms. and the what is clear in the world today is that is not my remark. it says the, there the report. i mean, you just record a conference, not only in the world is it become less western, but also the west yourself is becoming less western. if you are talking about democracy, democracy has been declared. i mean that western democracy has to be declared according to freedom house ever since 2006. and i believe this can be marked, continued to declare how many people in the west to really be living western democracy. yeah. and to look at the united states,

you been why you for people according to to told the media wouldn't believe the nice they might just end up having, having fema will soon. yeah. you both have democracy. look in china these days. we just had the largest anti government protests and decades against the 0 cove it's policy. how do we look in your country these days? i think you have a handpick to some st. let me tell you what democracy in china, democracy in china means that we had to 1st pay attention to people's the right of subsistence and development, and which party in human history can actually lit shaker poverty of 800 meaning people in 40. yes, this is done by the chinese communist party by repression. so by report charges, people are starting to much better off that in the past. yeah. any people over the age of 40 would or would recognize that. so we are having chinese democracy in our

own way. so you actually referring everything to kind of western type of democracy . i believe this is somewhat biased. senior colonel through boat, we've discussed international issues. we've discussed briefly issues inside china, seen from beijing. just how dangerous is the world looking right now? i think of the world, are you looking really dangerous in that it assume that the world is totally split? yeah. china, archival corporation with the united states. but we always got from united what they called competition or you make stream competing. let me ask a question. when the competition is already extreme, how far is it away from a conflict? it is good that a china is or the rising power is still talking about the corporation, which makes you will feel safer. corporation or competition senior con on you. bo,

thank you very much. we run out of time. thanks for your time. thanks for being on . come pick them. thank you very much. ah ah, with

who to the point. strong opinions, clear positions, international perspectives. the u. s. and china have never really trusted each other. now the 2 superpowers have once again clashed over a chinese balloon,

flown into u. s. territory, but just how bad can it get on to the point we asked us china rivalry, what's behind well intentioned, to the point one is around 30 minutes on d. w. in good shape. these others typically fine for analogy. but what exactly is the body doing? and why we clarify, if you can prevent symptom, and which therapies actually help in good shape in 90 minutes on d. w. o. o. what secrets lie behind these was discover new adventures in

360 degrees and explore fascinating world heritage sites with d. w. world heritage is 3. 60. get the app now here in that you still wouldn't don't collection interesting you month, right? you will send this new meditation, the gross must the end of a superpower. the collapse of the soviet union rushes more in ukraine. one years vision began. we take a look back at the 4th and into the future. in the new building. slowly in february on d. w with

ah ah ah, this is dw news live from the land more than 21000 killed in the quakes in turkey and syria rescue is continue to pull people alive from the rubble defying be all 4 days after the catastrophic earthquakes hopes the.