in state, with new freedoms, new conflict, and own dependencies, the end of a superpower, the collapse of the soviet union. in 30 minutes on d, w. these places in europe are smashing the records, stepped into a bold adventure. it's the treasure map for modern globetrotters. discover some of you will record breaking sites on your back. you too. and now also in book form a chinese balloon flying high over america, has led to the cancellation of high level talks between beijing and washington and hold it any chance of a thor in relations between the 2 countries. the american said the balloon was spying and shut it down over the atlantic. chinese claim it was studying the weather and straight unintentionally. of course, it could hardly have come at

a worse time. my guest in beijing is senior colonel ju bow expert on chinese security. and strategy, i think of the world are you looking really dangerous in that, or it seems that the world is totally split apart from the balloon. there are plenty of other irritants that washington wanted to discuss. china's refusal to condemn moscow the invasion of ukraine and its increasing threats directed taiwan. is china preparing to take the island by force? ah, senior colonel as you bow. welcome to conflict zone. chicken is cedersahn. china's balloon got shot down after violating usaa space. it had no right to be there. of course why the indignant response from bay ging is it that they just don't like getting caught? i think the chinese government has expressed regret already and therefore i believe

the american government should not. that makes it really fuss about it. after all, is just an accident. so they should not really bother too much about it. if i compare this kind of entry, which is most unfortunate to americans are numerous and endless. reconnaissance, i said late, it's a lot chinese coast or the south china sea in the name of freedom navigation. i would say that he pays a purposeful while, aus ah, ah, you know, divergent. in this case, you say, you know that america is making fast, but we've had claims of overreaction from your government, a statement of strong discontent and protest. there was even a threat of retaliation. we reserve the right to take further measures. what happened to china? cool, cool. heads, you're not telling me china, i wouldn't have done exactly the same thing if

a u. s. balloon had floated over its territory. well, i think you have the use the right word overreaction, and that is how we have described american action. american pot, china coast with reserve rise, you know, to reciprocate if there is a tate of course you can expect that pat. but i believe the general spirit of the remarks of a spokesman is to have will, you know, kind of a cool headed conversation to talk about all this because there are so many new international rules regarding a share regarding shipping the industry by the minority not so many rules are made about this kind of balloon stuff while ago, historically the rogers and the law of the war which prohibits for example, throwing projectiles explosive from balloons. so if the united states, i believe, is su, so alarming, then that probably believe this will provide

a good chart for the 2 countries to talk about all these things that in a candidate to honest man. well, let's just look at china's claim. beijing says this was nothing more than a weather balloon. it was blown off course by unpredictable winds. and yet out of almost 10000000 square miles in north america to choose from, your balloon just hovers. it talks itself for a while above americas missile silos in montana water coincidence. the china really expect anyone to believe that explanation. well, if the people do not believe it, then my question is, how can shine that, you know, project a such a big balloon, which is the lodge of those 3 buses which move slowly and in the direction of the united states. knowing this is shorter than will be detected. knowing mr. asked the blink and american secretary is set to visit a china enormous real time. what is the purpose of child doing that?

well, somebody didn't want to visit. if you can't control your balloons and prevent them from violating other countries, asked bass. perhaps you shouldn't be flying them in the 1st place, should you? well, i think you know, the, you the balloon for 17 research it a, the perfectly legal and they do the allowable, as i said before, this is simply an accident, while people make mistakes and they couldn't be accident. so it is, it is all right, and we are honest about that. we expressed regret and we hope this page would it be over. if this page is not over, then we should be good about how we should avoid the things you know from happening in the future. the americans track this balloon for some days. last wednesday, the state department raised the issue with your embassy in washington, but got no answers. so here's the question. why did they jing wait for the

americans to raise this issue? if it was an honest mistake in an innocent flight, why didn't making act according to international norms and immediately allowed washington when this object violated us? asked bass. i don't believe the chinese government was silent. actually if you read the website, the chinese news report and fast spokesman actually was talking about this almost on daily basis in recent days. and from the past, the remarks of the spokesman she mentioned, declared is that we would you know, investigate the, into the situation because the minister of foreign affairs should not be supposed to know everything beforehand. and this is down to us honest attitude for her to say like that. and then for china to find it out. and the china very soon has expressed an opinion through a statement here from

a fact to china had the chance to raise this issue of its own accord with the americans. you told me i didn't know where it's balloon was. it didn't raise the issue. i waited until the americans raised it and then last thursday, when the us announced the president, the presence of the balloon, your spokeswoman played dumb saying china would gather and verify the facts. there was nothing to gather, verify was that senior colonel job bo saying, well, you'll read you exactly what it was because the state, the bottom of the raise these you with your diplomats. so why play dumb? honest people don't need to do that? do they? well, i think the municipal foreign affairs should not be taken for granted that they should know everything beforehand that because he's not of that everybody would provide them the information beforehand. and if there is an accident or if there is an instant, well when it is become public or if municipal foreign affairs is well of it,

of course it won't start investigation with approval over the charges for government. and then we could find out to the choose. yeah, well, this is the obvious, i believe there's nothing wrong with that. this time, according to the pentagon, this isn't the 1st time you've done this pentagon says you've got away with doing this at least 4 other times. it seems you send these balloons off and you can't control them, you say and. and then you don't draw attention to the countries whose face you're violating. that doesn't seem to be the act of a responsible power, which trying to continually says it is. well, pentagon would say so many things, and i don't know which one is true and which is not, but i know at least one thing is a true. what know what the general talk about china and china going to attack taiwan in 2025 pentagon. the rest of that, this agreement and this car with this discrepancy will show actually that method,

lee, how divided the united states has become in terms of coordination on where he branches in terms of coordination within the military. so right now, the much wo, that, you know, the message is highly divided. you don't seem much better coordination in china. to be honest, if you don't know if your ministry don't know where you're balloons are, and they sail blindly over whichever countries they, they feel like the particular time you say nothing about it. what, what's puzzling about china's indignant reaction to the shooting down is that it seems to want to make this and even more damaging offend than it already is. why we're talking about a damaging i believe. but this certainly has affected the china us relationship. if this is what you want to talk about, this relationship is already enough. as you said,

then to has certainly affected this relationship. but i believe we need to sit down to talk about so many so many important issues. we should not let a big balloon overshadow. this relationship that would be silly. yeah. rob balloon the, the balloon and that it is that it is no longer there and it won't be able to probably in history. but there are so many pressing hardy issues was this 2 countries to deal ways as this a, the priority. otherwise, why wouldn't buy this and as the blink and to come to china. so you think the visits of antony blanco, us secretary of state can be resurrected? can it? is this what china once i think he himself had spreads out every word to come to china at the earliest possible time. i believe he's waiting for, for, for the lapse of time to setting stand because he certainly would not wish his

visit. apparently a very important visit to be overshadowed by big or symbolic a balloon. this is like a hollywood movie. let's talk if we may about the war in ukraine. one of the subjects that mister blanc um might perhaps have discussed with the government of his trip had gone ahead. you've written that china has taken a careful line between russia. it's strategic partner and ukraine. a significant trading partner, but it's not just a polite way of saying you're sitting on the fence waiting to see who wins after you don't want to back lose or do you. well, it still is a difficult situation for everybody, including china. because it, as you have, are corrected or quoted in my, my opinion, while russia, china strategies partner, but will have a very good relationship with ukraine's. well, i believe the china has a try these best to be in a neutral position at china has tried to best to be impartial. and i tell you,

i leave china is just sitting on the fence. this is definitely the wrong impression . think of this. every china joins and russia. yeah. you can. you chatter take the russian side? well, probably already in the so the, whoa, whoa. but a china hasn't as far back as last. may you acknowledged? pretty bluntly that putins all out war against ukraine had failed. and you weren't impressed with his frequent threats to use nuclear weapons. is that a view? shad by the communist party, the senior actual arms and the communist party in the military and china? that is my personal view will i believe that this war will continue, but they're putting will not be a victor or a loser because the russia is so big and yourselves as a strong. so russia want to lose this war, but it kind of hard to win this war because actually russia is fighting against the

nato indirectly in terms of the potential of him using nuclear weapon. i believe my also is a very straight forward. no, because this would be a gift to humanity because this would be a guess and the promise of russia when it be glad, in a joint statement with other weapon states that a nuclear war can never be won, therefore should not be fought at all. so is proteins, nuclear blackmail, a step to fall for china as beijing started to get irritated by moscow threats. i think you should not talk about. we didn't talk about a using nuclear weapon directly, but he did the mentioned as hints how nuclear weapons might be used if he talking about the president during the 2nd world war. what i think he

was referring to what happened to an exactly anna hero shima. but that he's a bad example to quote, you will not commit a murder because you have just seen the murder, right? so that is the use of nuclear weapon is i guess a chinese policy is again to humanity. the should not be encouraging in any circumstances with any reasons at all. so what we're trying to do about it, you keep saying that in the past that china should do more, what more should it do to prevent prevent nuclear war? yeah, china actually has already done something because the german chancellor shows with it to china. it was stressed by president a shooting pain that a nuclear weapons should not be used. europe. and mister shows went back and said simply because of this agreement, his of is to charge was less while i'm the present a. she mentioned this again during the but natural meeting with the prison biden at

the g. 20. so china's position on this issue is clear cut. it is crystal clear. and is there any sign that moscow is listening to china's position? i want to be able to speak on behalf of russians. but i believe, well, if somebody has written some opinions, you know, he, in the economist all chinese president has a talk a bit more than one occasions. russians should have heard it. you wrote recently that by threatening ukraine, which chose to give up its nuclear weapons. russia has already tarnished its reputation, didn't it also tarnish its reputation by murdering large numbers of ukrainians who pose no threat of any kind to russia? well, that we're talking about a wall and the was definitely it would have a casualties. so we talk about war crimes, senior colonel. yeah,

bu. but talking about war crimes here. when just talking about war, we're talking about women being raped. we're talking about men being executed in cold blood. we're talking about children being deported from ukraine to russia. we're talking about war crimes here while, while prime definitely related to war, because without was how can we have low primes this, the passion to either war. but we do in china understand this and the, we do a called a full respect for sovereignty. but in this case, do not just mention about the war to self. and the more important thing is also to discuss why this, what has happened at all, because of nato's expansion. because all the western countries, all, because all nato countries has a perfectly di, connected warnings that from the, even the somebody union study from gorbachev. the bar is also to president putin. well, what makes the person to put in different from his predecessors?

he actually was not owning warning. he carried into action so that he, that is a difference. so i believe to resolve this issue. i don't know how long it will last, but eventually that they will come when the war becomes finished. but how can we make sure that any war like this will not happen again? i believe ne, auto should read this section to so to stop expansion anymore. probably exchange over russia, suppliers of not using nuclear weapons. because this is what russia nuclear blackmail this would be giving into nuclear black mail. and then, and then anybody can do that, north korea could do that. pakistan could do that. iran, maybe if it gets nuclear weapons, could do that. you opened the way the moment to anybody, raffles and nuclear weapons that you, you stepped back. that's the end of deterrence. do you really want that? is that what you're advocating given to any body who threatens you with

a nuclear weapon? well, that's exactly what i'm against because the nuclear weapon is not supposed to be even kept in the hands of the nuclear weapon states. but you also show back down simply because protein is threatening it with nuclear weapons. no, it's not my point and they don't also have nuclear weapon states among them. right . and you have the strongest military power. you have a problem. so you will have a person who will also have nuclear weapons. yes. when i threatening to use it, i'm like russia and nato is not threatening to use it. nuclear weapons, nato. you that not a threatening view, that you russia about how they could reach a compromise. we can not only talk about specs on this alone till we come to rudy courses that won't be able to find the right way to address all these problems.

let's talk about the other major issue on the horizon, which is taiwan and china is increasingly threatening behavior towards it. last year, chinese plains made over 1700 incursions into ty, ones and defense identifications largest in cash was by 47 planes on christmas day . a chinese spokesman said it was a response to american provocation, and yet paging continues to insist its for peaceful striving for peaceful re unification has a funny way of showing its peaceful credentials. doesn't your user the wrong word in cushions? there isn't there. you know, i didn't advocate what to say where or even s space of the tower, which because of i e is part of china. yes. we have with the many flights, we send them as a warning against the potential over a taiwan become and then separate is a part of china. so we want to subs after from happy, i'm happy you mention the united states and well, this is almost like

a chicken egg questions. but look, that the fact that last the polosa visited china. yeah, is by the will warning from china in spite of disagreement from that, a pentagon and from a president biden. so she's still insisted to go. she probably would be remembered she, i think she want to be remember as someone who has left her legacy. but history is not only written by the victors, it's also written by lou, this. why me in such a loser? why don't we just cut through the rhetoric about peace? the message is clear enough. china will take taiwan by force. if it was surrender voluntarily, and that time is getting close, isn't that the bottom line? i don't think so because the one to threaten this fall then what all these threats flow. i think a child in china, us the readiness to use force is just the maintain at the last non peaceful means. because the taiwan that is totally shut him about,

it would not be in the interest of the whole china. therefore, we'd have to suppress that. we have multiple society and it would make the optimal step to resolve this issue peacefully. but the one load we are not guaranteed that definitely we might be able to, to resolve this abuse party. so we, you know, military have to be well prepared. what does that cover? what, what does a peaceful settlement or any country to save god, it's a sovereignty. what does it look like with taiwan? what does a peaceful settlement look like with taiwan? taiwan, giving it the one control to beijing? yeah. that's it. well we, we have a lay down conditions and no photo for having to tie when these people to listen to . and so these conditions are not a secret at all. and we would be very much, you know, tolerance with that. but it was system with a way of living. look at the fact that that's how you went predators in mind. you

certainly your better relationship with wisdom and the china. and he has written many benefits. why? because the men of china has more trust him is a question of trust that although at that time we did not have a time table to say when we should, to become re unified. but at least the men, china, i believe, but it is possible for us to become re unified peacefully, if we go down the road. right now, we're doing the time of time. and hong kong is the model for this. the same blueprint as hong kong is that right? people will be divided into patriots and traitors. the so called traitors who want to demonstrate and protest on the streets will go to jail for a long time. and the patriots loyal to the new masters in beijing. we'll get to the top jobs. is that the scenario that trying to well well i think you, i just making that bit simplistic into a black and white picture. so that's what's happening in hong kong. that's what's

happening though i don't think so essentially what you're asking is whether democracy in hong kong has it could be maintained maintained. right? yeah, asking the question about democracy. but let me tell you, democracy has many forms, and the what is clear in the world today is that is not my remark. it says the there the report, munitions, record a conference, not only in the world is it become less western, but also the west yourself is becoming less the west. that if you're talking about democracy, democracy has been declared. i mean that western democracy has to be declared according to freedom house ever since a 2006. and i believe this can be marked, continued to decline. how many people in the west to really be living western democracy. yeah, and to look at the united states, you been why you for people according to, to told the media wouldn't believe the nice the my just to end up having, having a theme will soon you both have democracy. look in china these days. we just had

the largest anti government protests and decades against the 0 cove. it's policy. how do i have a democracy? look in your country these days. i think you have a handpick to some st. let me tell you what democracy in china, democracy in china means that we had to 1st pay attention to people's the right of subsistence and development, and which party in human history can actually the shaker poverty of 800000000 people in 40? yes, this is done by the chinese communist party by repression. so by report charges, people are starting to much better off that in the past. yeah. any people over the age of 40 would or would recognize that. so we are having chinese democracy in the oh way. so you are actually referring everything to kind of western type of democracy. i believe this is somewhat biased. senior colonel through bo, we've discussed international issues. we've discussed briefly issues inside china,

seen from beijing. just how dangerous is the world looking right now? i think of the world, are you looking really dangerous in that it seems that the world is totally split. yeah. china, article corporation with the united states. but we always got from united was they called a competition or you make stream competing? let me ask a question. when the competition is already extreme, how far is it away from a conflict? it is good that a china is or the rising power is still talking about the corporation, which makes you will feel safer. corporation or competition. senior con homes you bo, thank you very much. we run out of time. thanks for your time. thanks for being on . come pick them. thank you very much. ah

ah, with

a politics in the wake of the soviet union. what are russians goals today? more than 30 years ago, 15 soviet republics became independent states. with new freedoms, new conflict, and all dependent in other for power. the collapse of the soviet union. coming up on d. w. on the road

with our travel super heroes. my mission is clear. you crushed iga and nicole, felicia explored germany. they die them and they check everything out. there's a lot going on in about germany, tried and tested with 90 minutes on d. w. ah, sometimes a seed is all you need to allow the big ideas to grow. we're bringing environmental conservation to life with learning facts like global ideas. we will show you how climate change and environmental conservation is taking shape around the world

and how we can all make a difference. knowledge grows through sharing, download it now for free and. d these look really getting ahead using tech as our documentary series founders valley, it's africa, meet the founders, empowering their continent through digital innovation, transforming work health and living conditions in their country. and finally the world with their ideas. founders valley africa starts february, 3rd on d, w. how can journalism help us in overcoming divisions save the date for the d. w global media forum? 2023 in bon jeremy. ah, an increasingly fragmented world with a growing number of voices,

digitally amplified. you see where this clutter can lead what we really need. overcoming divisions into vision for tomorrow's journalism. save the date and join us for this discussion. at the 16th edition of d, w. c, global media forum. ah, this is, do you got your news? and these are our top stories. more than 29000 people are now known to have been killed in the earthquakes, in telco and cynthia. she mandated it to syria, was held up by the long running civil war, but is now getting.