i look back and say, that's crazy that we ever use animals to get a documentary series about the future of food and a more complex relationship with animals. the great media debate this week on d. w or it's almost a year since russia invaded ukraine with no peace talk, so cease fire of any kind in prospect. and yet president putin insist the war is showing a positive trend. my guest this week for moscow is dimitri trending. for my army officer and former director of the carnegie moscow center, which was shut down last april, with tens of thousands of its soldiers killed and little progress on the ground. the kremlin is taking its own survival on the outcome of the war. in the mines of

fulton and i think a lot of people around him, we are in a zone in which rushes very distant is a state. but why did moscow go to war just as the west that the gun, the dialog putin has been demanding? and has moscow now move the world once and parole from nuclear to terrence to nuclear black mail for meet the training. welcome to come pick, go. thank you very much jim. it's a pleasure to be with you. we've had almost a year of war in ukraine, tens of thousands of people dead, many thousands more injured mass destruction and misery. what good has any of this brought to russia? oh, there's no good that that's, that's obvious. the issue is there should've usually been prevent it. but it wasn't. and that makes it a real tragedy. as russia now bitten off more than it can to

russia, certainly confronting the most difficult issue militarily, politically, socially, internationally. something that i think very few people bit thought that it would have to confront. but it's coping it's learning. it's improving friends, but it's hard. it's going to be hard for, for quite some time. i'm sure you say it's coping and improving things. what should we read into all the changes of command desperation, kremlin anger at the failure so far? i think that would be very superficial. certainly, any amount of anger you can imagine, although, but what's happening on the. 1 ground in various places, but i think you should read into that and move to

a streamline the chain of command and to prepare for i think more decisive action. a lot of people in russia were complaining and still complaining that russia is fighting with its hand almost tied behind its back. and that made change where they a new structure. and i think a new, a strategy that lies behind it. moscow has been attempting to stifle criticism with the threat of up to 15 year jail sentences for discrediting the army. and yet the chechen leader runs on today or off and you have gaining pre, goes in front of boot in and head of the wagner must. and regroup, they haven't meant that was have that, is it one law for the elite and one law for everybody else? well, i would put a differently. there's, i wouldn't call it one law,

but there's one approach to the people in be call it big re arctic camp and another one for the people who openly critical not only of the decisions by the commander in chief of the war of the war effort. russia is a country at the war this time, even if it's officially a state of war, or martial law has not been declared in russia. but the reality is that russia is a war. so no effort is being sped. i'm going to make sure that this war with all the probations, misery, tragedies, and all that does not lead to any serious internal destabilization and people on the other side are certainly working to instill a measure of large measure of destabilization into the russian social subject.

yeah, but if even the patriotic crowd are saying things about rushes, commanders, like all these boston should be sent bare foot to the front with automatic guns, you tend to wonder how wide spread in moscow is that discontent with the way the war is being handled well i think you should appreciate that very few people even a few years ago. imagine that there would be anything like this war for russia to fight. 10 years ago, the russian, the grand russian defense minister declared, basically that europe has ceased to be a potential theater of war for russia. and now russia is fighting a war. just imagine it, wherever country, whose population is believed to be officially believe to be in russia, but at the same people with russia it's, it's just mind boggling that russia has been able to,

to fight their way because it has fought over the past 11 months, given the relations between the ukrainians and russians given the relations between russia and the west. so you know, i'm not surprised that they at the level of anger and mutual recrimination. i'm somewhat surprised that it is. it's still held in check, but they're still very wide latitude that people enjoy people on the right side if you like, that that these people enjoy. when they discuss things on the battlefield and discuss things at the head for us, it doesn't limit. the whole thing is not limited to just the me to amend your mention, but the whole array of a walk our respondents using the freedom. freedom of speech to the hilt,

i would say. but what's left of it, in terms of your on the free press hasn't been a huge well look i wouldn't want to, to engage with you in a discussion about the freedom of the press of the media. i have a very but say critical you of that, whether in russia or outside of russia, i'm not talking about that. but if you, if you were to read, if you were able to read russian and read a telegram channels that are both available to all citizens of russia, you'll be surprised that how much criticism sometimes justified, sometimes unjustified. you will hear you will read actually on those telegram channels to me to try to house russia underestimated the west determination to help

you crane or is it still cling to the idea that in the end, nato will lose interest and leave ukraine to its own devices. well, i think that the initial concept of the special military operation was very different from what has been and but unfolding since may be early march of last year. and had russia been able to achieve its goals? were there a couple of weeks, a couple of months there and i think they would not have been that much that their west would have been able to do to support so this, this really supported k f that it couldn't achieve its goals movement. well, not really, i think that the, again, i don't know what the original concept was, but it looks like it was, it was more of a special operation gonna military one. and that i think was be

was the cause of what happened after that. but this is water under the bridge. i think that certainly one thing was not anticipated that there westwood steel colette freeze and ban confiscate russia is currency reserve in the, in, in western currencies. and that, i think was not appreciated, that the west would be able to do that because that was thought to be, you know, over over a certain line that the westwood would do. and that money was but not hold back before the start of the operation. so that's what. busy what did they expect the west did? they just complain a little and forget about it. to use whatever means where the disposal to show that

for the russia was causing him. if you go back and read what was written in the western newspapers at the end of 21 and, and early 22, when there was a lot of discussion of an imminent russian attack against your grade, people didn't go nearly as far as what we're seeing today, people were talking about switching off swift, russia, and things like that. it's interesting that maybe the west was sort of learning russia ukraine by professing to do intend to do too little to help your grade. i don't know. well, this is a joke. i still, i just don't think that the west at that time, that intricate the strategies of the russia and your grade. but russia, you get on the west a big boost in particular. it's given nato a big boost,

hasn't gotten play. what it didn't want out of this up around so far? yes, that's true. that's true in a way. but not in a very big way because just frankly, russians have long thought russians. i mean, those russians make decisions. those russians who are the russians who run the place, those russians have long assigned western europe, or all of europe outside of russia to, to the u. s. camp mr. book to called your pm countries, vassals of the united states. so there were no big surprises, except maybe one that germany was shooting itself in the 4th by revising its energy policy and ruptured energy links with russia. that's, that was perhaps the only surprise that people that people match in this. this done . you tell people on february the 24th so long as the war last,

i won't say or write a word, but good harm, the russian army, its leadership, or the commander in chief. does that mean you repudiate all the critical views of putin that you express before february 24th? well, i spend by everything i have written and said before the 24th and after the 24th. i will go your own record as telling the spiegel correspondent, russia intervention to support the dumbass rebels, was the most serious mistake of putin foreign policy. do you still think that? well, let me, let me tell you this. i'm sure that mr. pooty believed that i was not working for russia when he made that decision there was certainly a need to do something about. busy about your brain, about don bass,

and i think that was coming to a decision. but the, the original concept of the operation. i don't know what it was, but it seemed to me was flawed. and i think this is something that a lot of people today in russia ship, but as i said, this is water under the bridge. this is not the time to criticize the the, the, the commander in chief where we faced the situation in which the west, the combined west, as you said, is up in arms against stuff. and well, in the proxy war against the united states and its nature partners and some other countries. and that's the reality in which you operate. i'm wondering, to what extent russia could have avoided this war if it wanted to. in january last year, you told comments on that a dialogue with the west was underway for the 1st time you said since talks on

german reunification, the west has agreed to discuss european security with russia. the united states and nato have been negotiating european security with russia, so the security rest on 2 pillows rather than one. why launch a war? then when the process the russia had wanted and demanded was actually on the way. well, i sent for mister and for the russian general staff, the key question was whether the west would entertain and that they decide on the idea of no natal membership for ukraine and no need to a presence in ukraine. that was chief of been king for put in got but, but in your view before the war start my, my,

your while in my view and i expressed in various ways including in a book that was published a couple of years ago that i believe that russia is both soviet foreign policy, 2 things were, were damaging, were good, could, would qualify as, as huge mistakes. one is the russian policy toward ukraine, which essentially was no policy and reliance on money essentially. and that your connections with a few people which again to me the did not amount to a policy. and 2nd, the the preoccupation where nato enlargement, in my view of the best way to to responded to nato enlargement would be to, to oppose the united po, to 2. but the united states of the same position of peril that russia would be put

due to nato enlargement. but just to be clear, but just to be clear on that, if you, you were saying in january that you didn't believe nato expansion was any great threat to russia. when i said that, i would stand by that today. but it, let's say, in historical way we are worn out in prior to 24 february. well, they're not at war. and a lot of things could have been done differently, including, and i think primarily by the west which day, why not. and again, my point was go right and which the freedom of discussion before decision mistaken. and now that a national decision has been taken, your abide by that decision because it's everything that happened before

24 february was over a different of a different value after the 24th. but my point is that all the reasons that russia has given is given many reasons for why it began this war, including nato expansion. don't hold water to that. that was the charge. the ukraine was engaged in genocide. that's what putin said. he said, what's happening in the dumbass, today's genocide, turned out to be a false accusation, didn't the case went to the un highest court? the i c, j was thrown out last month. the court said it had been no evidence to support russia's claims. russia ignored the ruling, durham, there's a tragedy to a major population. in 962, the united states was ready to go to war, to nuclear war,

with russia. soviet union then over show the missiles in cuba, although you would agree, i think with me that mr. crusher was not planning a nuclear dr. just the united states from pure about positions. he was only looking for a balance over the past year. since you raised the nuclear issue over the past year, russian officials have kept up a pretty constant drumbeat about russia, nuclear weapons. does russia really want to move from deterrence, nuclear deterrence, to nuclear black male? well, i wouldn't call it nuclear black mariel because you make all determines she knew what the timeframe blackmailing away. well, this is, this is a much more dangerous game. this is do what we want. well, this isn't, it is what else? yes, yes. but if you look at that from the russian angle, and again,

i did not invite you to do emphasize where, where, where the russian. but just look at that run the russian angle to them are war is being waged against russia and part of the territory that used to be russian that is buffy later by russia. people, many of them is that an excuse is not an excuse, but we're not, we're not in the court. we will not be sitting in a quote. if it's a totally different ball game. a lot of people would like russia to be sitting in a court. i know, i know, i don't think that they will see russia and the doc, but let them have their dream. do you believe russia is actively considering 1st use of nuclear weapons in this? let me, let me tell you this present. not so long ago. raised the question whether the russian nuclear

doctrine should be revised to allow for a preventive use of nuclear weapons. he then dismissed it in his conversation in the same conversation. but the very fact that he raised the issue, i think, suggests that there's something done about that. it's the whole business, the whole war in your brain is existential for russia. and if you want me to quote again, i will say that a while back almost 5 years back, one half years back. he said, well, we're not interested in a well without rush and in the minds of potent and i think

a lot of people around him. we are in a zone in which russia is very existence, is at stake. so i would dread very carefully. i don't see why russia's very existence is, is at stake. i can see why you cranes it if russia leaves the theatre of war and goes home, the war is finished. if you train stops fighting, ukraine is finished. that they're the ones who are facing existential risk. not you, you started the war. well, you're done. i mean, suppose ukraine, which i think was written in the cranium doctrine. suppose your cray just for the sake of argument that started a war of liberation against russia, attacking crimea. and a part of don bass that was outside of control,

and ukraine would have said that we are not attacking russia. we're just finishing up the war that actually started back in 2014 over crimea. and now if you just changed the optic said, look at that from the moscow from b. moscow position. where does she russia using the same argument? can we just come back to the present? because on the subject of nuclear weapons, are you seriously saying that putin might risk the survival of the entire planet just to get his own way in ukraine? that's pretty close to a definition of madness, isn't that? is he mad? i'm not suggesting your expansion of what but basically saying,

so i think i don't know where, where the. busy the high command commander chief on those issues. but the countries data trying to win a war adjuster, nuclear supa, need to need to think about the potential of nuclear becoming, becoming used in that conflict. one way or another. i would have thought about you thought about it, but to comply that game conte de when, when once you, once you go to nuclear blackmail, any thug can play the game content, you go from deterrents which is delivered certain amount to many decades of stability. and you move into a totally new and very dangerous game is moscow really think it will take us there?

well, i will address the issue to those who supported your grey and anti russian stance. those who gave their support to your grain in 2014 and after that they were treading on very dangerous territory. was that time, even though at that time no one in the west were seriously considering or giving your cray nato membership. no one was prepared to sit down with russia and basically settled the issue without your grade, becoming an aide to country without ukraine being a host to nato countries, forces in its territory. this was essentially the gist of book

news. i call it ultimate, i'm call it proposal, call it whatever you like in december, not 2021. and that was something that people did not wish to discuss. so they made a decision to risk, and now they are risking it. how does this? and dmitri chad in ukraine, in whatever condition it emerges from this war, is never going to forgive. you, never going to forgive russia for what it's done, the destruction and the death, and the war crimes that it's committed on its territory. i don't know how it will end that many options. i think that given the stakes that are so much higher for russia, i think that russia will prevail over the rest to meet your tenant, good tabby on complex. i'll thank you very much for your time. you're welcome. ah

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ah ah, this is dw news lie from berlin in the wake of devastating that its quakes comes, the task of burying the dead. turkey digs, moss, grapes, both thousands of bodies and ball. most victims have been identified. many families are still desperately trying to find missing, lawful class balloons shop down over keith. ukraine says it has eliminated suspected surveillance aircraft. us russia ramps up its attacks in the air and on the ground.