oh and what are short oh, in winning fighting scoring, we say they're about never giving up the most exciting sport. stories about people passion and their dr. sports life every weekend on d. w. ah, nearly a year after protein launched his attack on ukraine, nato says rush as much feared, spring offensive is already underway. both sides are suffering painful losses and running through vast stocks of ammunition as they wage. a fierce battle for small gains in the east of the country. in strategically important by mote, for example,

months of unrelenting assault by the private mercenary group, 5. have taken a bloody toll on both sides and destroyed the city. protein needs wagner to succeed . but the groups later you have any play gushing and says the battle is far from over. where does that leave the other side as ammunition stocks, dwindle and casualties rise? we are asking proteins latest offensive. how is nato responding with hello and welcome to to the point. it is a pleasure to greet our guests. laura fund daniels is head of the research division, the america's at the german thank tag w. s w p. and it's a great pleasure to welcome my colleague vladimir as he is originally from st.

petersburg and works on d dumping his russian desk and were very pleased to have with us natasha coleman yoke. she is a freelance conflict reporter from ukraine who heads the independent broadcaster homogeneity tv, and founded the public interest journalism lab. she joins us from tia by skype. vladimir, with the 1st anniversary of the russian invasion looming, vladimir putin would like to have some successes to show will. in fact, russian forces gratify that wish his desperate need to deliver some kind of victory to the russian public next to it because he will be broken the russian government next week with an all speech to the mission. so iran expecting a kind of russian offensive in eastern the green book versus signs of trying to start such of it offensive in the recent, reeks and through some base. but there's no major success on this. can you say

a little bit more about that? because the battle particularly for validity on the eastern front in done yet, is seen as an opening move, in this much dreaded spring offensive by russia. there are varying reports about the steel of russian losses and also about rushes, a capacity to keep sending new forces. what do you know about that? in the po? no, not march, or everything from open sources is smarter with best and public knows the russian losses was indeed huge. there are numbers circulating of 10001000 troops 1000 on the 2 days of the air filter their pictures from, from drones or of dozens of russian thanks destroyed by you carrying and fire. so it was barely managed to rush and try to start offensive. in the riffle cooper, natalia can ukraine's forces stand up to a russian army with what appears to be

a steady supply of new recruits, albeit, largely untrained once. so you mentioned the hood or no, the operation to buy the russians to overtake bombs, started in march last year. so it's lasting, almost 11 months is and there was no major success. of course it's closed. but even using this, wagner group is notorious, but probably considered to be one of the most capable in december ski l. there is no major success. and also if you speak about this russian military week or is sometimes especially within this last months, this one will be expected. very tough winter. yes. the rock as we'll see, some of the ukrainian soldiers. yes, i hear and i know about many, so it's really cool and tragic. but at the same time, russian sometimes report about over taking the village, which technically has 33 residents, you know, so, you know, mentioning a number of the towns,

yes. same pool. and there are people there they left the towns destroyed, but really they are really mine the towns nobody would ever heard. so this, this really shows that for russia, even like taking a small town at this stage isn't really the an easy way. so ukrainians, of course, are frank for larger, larger friends in the dorm bus. and from the russian border in park, your region was probably, but still there are no like real concerns about were taking any, you know, carried through which was which was invaded by russia. you know, a year ago, laura mean have ukraine's western allies, including the u. s. defense secretary are raising a lot of concerned about whether they can supply enough ammunition in future. apparently there's even been talk of artillery units of ukraine needing to ration i. so i think that is what the nature defense ministers have been discussing. now

is how to solve that logistical problem. i think as the general secretary of nato sat. and that will be key because we can not only count on the level of vision on the ukrainian side and that determiners of ukrainian soldiers, but they will also needs additional military support and ammunition, that's obvious. italian. some u. s. military experts are saying that it is unrealistic to try to hold back mote. you mentioned that very long and very bloody battle that has been going on. in fact, it is the bloodiest of all the battle so far in this war. so some u. s. military experts are saying, perhaps ukraine needs to concentrate on its own counter offensive and stop seeking to defend. are you seeing any signs that ukrainian leaders are taking that advice and preparing to give up on the city?

so from what we understand, of course, we can, and we do not know that much about you know, the details of the military operations. the whole battle is a very complex process of taking tub decisions by the ukranian army. sometimes they might lose that we, which might lose a smaller town, but i know that the resort with the courses decision to lead when it's necessary. we have examples of that have been yes. gonna lose the chance for the major towns which were actually lost in the course of this war. and that happened to the last time, more or less in may and june of the last year. so that might be possible, but it's always explained by the planned retreat. if it's, if it's necessary, the point to buy more, what we understand it's pretty strategic so forth. if to a close to open this place, you know, there might be attacked because the for,

for the city, because what we really understand, you know, what about the just negotiation of the wheel? it's really very practical and technical. the for the russians are the less the shelling the ukrainian mainland, the great town, so the ukrainians ought to keep the russian as far as possible. the head of the russian mercenary group, wagner has compared the battle for bach. moved to a meat grinder and clearly thinks that his forces are better prepared to withstand the grinding than their ukrainian opponents or even regular russian troops. yet wagner forces to have taken massive casualties. a battle field and a netscape corpses. as far as the i can see, they are soldiers from the wagner group, a paramilitary organization. many of the fighters on mud arisen criminals, recruited from russian prisons and sent to war by again. he play goes in founder of wagner, and putin confident he promised the convicts freedom if they survived 6

months at the front, apparently with moscow's blessing. bureau m no goody, of the soldiers have years of experience fighting. it is probably the most experienced army in the world at the moment, and they perform their duties independently, room ups of $50000.00. wagner mercenaries are said to be fighting in ukraine. they are considered extremely ruthless and operate in secret. the group is particularly active around the front bind city of back most their pre gulshan had allegedly recently achieved decisive combat successes and publicly praised his private army for it. however, he claims that he has no political ambitions but pusan does not seem to trust him. the russian military command is now set to be taking the lead in frontline, fighting, relying on its own soldiers. is a power struggle looming in the kremlin with that

question straight away to you that a mere what do you think? short answer. no, there is no power struggle in kremlin or no power struggle in kremlin yet, but there is grow in science among the rationalists that some parts of russia that it's, are not happy with the russian ministry of defense in the russian army. and if anybody goes in trying to use the warrant, ukraine in the, in the very same way as a lead in europe, which in use of the orange, it's now 9 to 92000. because for letting me put in, it was a trampoline. that was a start of his biggest, but it be good. political, courier, it was a start of his beach for russian president, the warranty. and then tonight, if anybody wasn't positions himself as a very effective, very brutal, very deceased. if me, the leader in the very same base with him, it wouldn't use the warranted now 25 into 4 years ago. think ocean and think i should not only control was the wagner mercenary,

grow pit. he also has claimed responsibility for the famous internet research agency, the troll a factory. that in fact, meddled in the us elections in 2016. how powerful does that make him? and what is interesting about him. he claimed the orange of, of pro fabric anson for his book, and claim to do orange of, of wagner group. recently, he came from the shade of the russian politics because eric, his whole business was in a shed, or he was never admitting that he is in order of taught from reconsider his book and the wagner group. in the recent beaks and months, he openly stent and in the public. in said, yes, it's me yet, it's me. and he is pushing more and more in the russian public is getting more inter with his position. kim, self is a kind of public figure in the russian politics. laura, as we heard in the report progression says he has no political ambitions. he's

often known as proteins cook because in fact, that is exactly what he once was. or what are western security services saying about it all? do they see him as a real rival to put in the question and is really whether there would matter or not . if he's a real rival or not, it would only matter, i guess, if, if there would be a completely different policy coming along with a new leadership and russia right in new position on ukraine. a change in the cause of the war and the russian side. and i don't think anyone can expect that from him . so therefore, i think it's very reasonable to think about how to support ukraine rather than trying to read at the different lines within the, in fighting on the russian or site and in the russian powerhouse or elite. now the, the u. s. is put our wagner on the terrorism list. it considers frigo gene,

a war criminal distinct that makes any difference where it, it will eventually or one day there will be trials. i'm sure and, and of course the u. s. has a significant arms is sort of vested interest in having him go to court or also because of the manipulations in the u. s. election. so that's another sort of key interest on the u. s. side. both for humans, sound of recognition because in the russian borrow boy in the russian, both struggle american sanctions is for russian federal to force or one like pre gordon is the sign of recognition shoes proud to be sanctioned, spoken out of if you proud to do this oldest pro, occasions toward diverse because it's the new russian. i'd ology re do what they were. it takes us to bridge the united states natalia as i mentioned the up yes, please. yeah, i in fact wanted to, to join to a discussion about it. because what's interesting, but it's not

a power struggle between teaching and pre gordon, but between different groups in the russian military. so progression was famous for criticizing the russian army and telling like give me the hours and we'll show you that it should be different. that exactly happened in december. but on the wagner joined in the separation of the book. but from what we can say that they're absolutely successful, you know, after the months. so now he's kind of hasn't managed to prove what he was supposed . and the wagner, of course, these 2 types of their people, the former convicts who died and must, and they are left escaping. and of course, the mercenary, which also has a different we have a different stability because they're not regular troops because we just usual prisoners of war. they're merson, they're pretty well trained because they fought in syria for the molly elsewhere. but also they proven to be not that good, it doesn't mean the craniums i'm dying again, i should say we should remind about that that the price,

the desk of the price is high for the great. but still, he didn't managed so that it's quite an interesting period that him in the gray zone, which is a social media platform that is associated in fact with wagner has castigated russian commanders in the regular army forward the losses invalid dar and also in the bottom of region and called them to be held accountable for their up there and public trials. what kind of an influence does that and do the attacks by russian military bloggers on, on the, the regular russian forces? what kind of influence does that have on the russian public as a whole? it's not the 1st time that the general grades on which belongs to pre gordon at the can. the russian military command, regoza itself, took to the cameras in the morning to have sort of you, john agrees on and doing on the one of the us military broke, excuse you, in which video she screeches,

i think russian army in russian general command or the both leadership in the ukraine. it's his huge follower soup in the us of those so called military bravo, which has dozens and hundreds of thousands of followers. there are people which are embedded with the russian troops on the russian south and east of ukraine. and there are quite influential for wanton for 2nd, it's quite important source of knowing about the disconnect, more the russian part of russian military comments in the ukraine. 2 questions. first of all, could that spark at the military blogger is the greys own? could that spark a higher level of public dissatisfaction with put in and are you seeing a brutalization and perhaps are so a radicalization of public opinion in general? i mean, there's not a brutalization of public opinion in general and also does a consolidation of the public opinion, russian, because iran is like,

federal to non veterans live the country or go able to stay with us both because in itself, rosen told the wish should destroy theaters, 1st of all, because of the russians were stopping us to fight the ukraine, saw these nora gluten and russia, but the very much of consolidation herment in the 1st christian wrought room. but what for the 1st question i had asked you whether you think it could spark broader dissatisfaction with putting himself normally food will not spark that brother dissatisfaction with britain because the public opinion in russia doesn't play any watch roles in the political process because the political it's our sa, consolidated, the real, been not public protest and public boston gaskin ever put him because you're on his account but, but 0 to craig. no. laura, what do you think that the, in fighting in the kremlin and the re shuffle of ukraine's military command would mean for the duration of the conflict and are so for put ins,

future it. so i think both sides now are really and dependent on chewing military gains and winds. and everyone is sort of focused on the spring because we're expecting offensive on the russian side. and also i think this a great hopes and expectations in the u. s. that you, ukrainians will be able to gain territory and, and will be able to if eventually it gets the negotiations be in a different bargaining position than before. because there's so much support on the military side and human terran, 8 and so on. coming from the west that the ukrainians need to show that their effective and, and, and a successful i'm so imagining put in, not making any gains, obviously leads to reduce his power position. i think it would be the same even in

an authoritarian regime as it is in democracy for zelinski. i think it counts on both side needs victory in his in italy, delivers thumping to the russian public verizon. let sir. dig deeper on that question with regard to a weapons as russia and ukraine battle for every metre of land. nato's head has said that the conflict has become a race of logistics. no sooner did a trans atlantic coalition. a sent to kias longstanding. please for battle tanks than key of presented its next request. will ammunition and materiel arrive in time . and what more does ukraine need? tanks, missiles and jets. ukraine needs more weapons to defend itself against russian attacks. and it needs them as soon as possible. the front lines are lacking essentials and everybody's not asking for more ammunition. insufficient ammunition supplies, long delivery times of weapons,

and training of ukrainian soldiers. while russians, new offensive has long since gotten underway, nato states are coming under increasing pressure. so yes, we have a chance. yes, we have a problem, but the problems order to be sold and we are addressing the problem and we have struck the juicer to soul with both in the short term also longer term a to us mobilized defense industry. in other words, nato states must continue to provide arms to ensure ukraine continues to be supplied with weapons. in addition, started back is no longer ruling out. the delivery of fighter jets to ukraine. nato is joining forces. is it enough to put putin on the defensive old? let me put that question straight away to you. natalia, is it enough? it is not enough, and it's always

a bit too late. and the price of that is the life, both of the civilians and of the military. but to bring this discussion to the point, you know, it's really not, it's of course about the weapon. but for me, coming from the ground of a journalist who was reporting human rights, i should really say now following the cold for the weapons delivery, i can clearly explain that, you know, neither her son and her son, the region couldn't be liberated without this weapon. no hierarchy region, which is a huge part and the life is returning back to the stones. you know, we were there, we know about, you know, people and muss attacked, repressed, killed, tortured, so, and now after some months as the life is, it's still perfect, but it's getting to be normal. so it's doable. also what i've also observed myself, you know, i was, for me, it was very interesting to admit that when we saw the results of the attacks from

the high mercy. but take a look artillery, you know, it's very precise and when you go to the liberated towns where ukrainians you, who's more sophisticated weapons, there is less that much less people heard compared to the old fashioned, but old fashion ammunition, the russians are fighting wheezes. so really, the delivery of the weapon, more sophisticated weapons 1st makes the life of many, many people. now we're speaking about the southern hundreds of thousands people say for the though the russians go, the more they approached, the less they can attack into the ukrainian tones, which is also saving lights. so it's not just these a competition, you know, it's, it has, even if it's lusting for some, some months as any type of weapon really practically saves another town. so and now the platoon, another group of people. so natalia in a word, what is the single thing that you crane most needs? now, the munich security conference is getting underway. there will surely be

a lot of behind the scenes discussion there. what would be the single most important factor here in this i can just refer to the ukranian leadership because they know better what i know. it's worth these this tanks for the future under offense, which is lead to be possible and as well steel air defense. and jad, this is it remains a critical. thank you laura. the battle to tank coalition that german chancellor, olaf schultz worked so hard to hammer out, actually now appears not to be ready to deliver the promised number of battle tanks any time soon. ironically, berlin is actually out in front in this case, which is unusual. our report concluded that nato is joining forces, but how well is it doing so, and where do you think nato goes next?

what it needs to deliver, would it promised? and then we can tow things, proceeded. it needs to get to quick solutions. now that's obvious. and where it's going next, i don't know, i think come to the aircraft. the nato secretary general didn't excluded. and the fighter pilots being trained in the u. k. i think that gives you some kind of an indication letting me or nate us commander and he is a secretary general as we heard in the report is doing his best to sound optimistic . but he also said recently he doesn't see putting ending this war any time soon. mean either because ross is all in this world and there's nothing to lose for put in. there's no way back for him for the russian power loop. so the need to succeed somehow in the green, the signaling, the reason that they're re, due to negotiate on many channels. but in the october, in the current situation,

there's no way back for us so, so which will not go to compromise on something on their ground. in a tutor, i'm afraid. before we close, let me very briefly pick up on comments that we have received from our youtube viewers following our last program on ukraine. many of them were highly, highly skeptical of the prospect that negotiating with putin would either be feasible or could end the war. how do you see it very briefly, natalia? are they right? or we have no, any sign of russia ready to nick sheet, or even it's neither from the rhetoric nor from the actions. laura, i agree. although there's a discussion in germany and many intellectual, it's asking for negotiations. i don't see it being the right time. now. flattery i'm afraid of. no. what's your sense of how long the protein can hold out with this war? i'm afraid craig long. i'm afraid. thank you very much to all of you for being with

us for this program and thanks to all of our viewers do. if you're watching us on youtube, do send us your comments, please. we'd like very much to hear from you. from with,

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